A current thread discussing the best tweaks gave consistently high ranking for component isolation. I am curious to know where all the vibration is coming from that we are addressing with isolation. I understand that high volume listening can create significant vibration, but for the sake of this discussion let's assume we are listening at moderate levels. Can the vibrations from moderate sound levels affect the quality of sound? Are there other common significant sources of vibration that we are guarding against that can dramatically affect sound?
It is mostly in the minds of lay people who have no background in science and do not understand the psychology behind hearing. The only vibration sensitive devices in audio are the phonograph cartridge and the microphone, both for obvious reasons. They are the only devices that need to be isolated from environmental vibration/rumble. It is generated by the stereo obviously, devices in the house like the refrigerator and AC and finally the ground shaking from such things as big trucks running down your street. Electronics are not effected by vibration. Electrons could give a hoot. If they were we would have F22s crashing all over the place as they are completely controlled by electrons. If we blinded all these silly people they would never be able to tell which devices were isolated or not excepting perhaps the turntable. Silly in the Monty Python sense. This circus is subsidized by reputable manufacturers who do not want to alienate potential customers, they remain quiet on the subject. Others take advantage of it. Why not? All is fair when it comes to making money. If people want to spend their money on silly things it is their prerogative and problem. Big Pharma does this in spades.
@pauly - speakers generate internal vibrations from their drivers moving and push vibrations to the floor vibrating everything. That is why you want to isolate them and take the vibrations out of the cabinets. Most good speakers either come with spikes or platforms or something to decouple them from the floor. Same is true for amps, phono stages, CD players, DACs, you name it.
When I put my speakers on multilayer platforms, the sound was clearer and cleaner. I could put the layer on top or isolation pods or blocks or something, but I just don't want that floating effect because the speakers are tall and thin. Everything else floats.
IMHO the turntable is the place where the most improvement can come the easiest. A pod/block based platform on top of a wall shelf really combats vibration.
mijostyn"The only vibration sensitive devices in audio are the phonograph cartridge and the microphone, both for obvious reasons."
You are so wrong and yet you state, pronounce, and proclaim your Audio "Truths" as though they are the 10 Commandments!
there are many other sources where vibration may influence, distort, or alter the sound of the audio signal of course I only need one example to prove you wrong and confused.
Anything with vaccuum tubes is subject to microphonics which can be influenced by vibrations that is easily demonstrated, measured, and heard. I seem to recall that you have problems with giant flapping woofers in you're Music Reproduction System so you may want to think about vibrations instead of just using a massive "rumble" filter to resolve, repair, and remedy you're problems!
Electronic components do benefit from isolation. Using Isoacustic Oreas made a big difference in the focus and clarity of the sound. Why one would proclaim it wouldn't doesn't deserve comment, actually.
I say this as they will always chime in with their very negative proclamations, as if from on high, in the hopes of discouraging anyone from even trying. Makes one wonder what motivates them so say such things.
I isolated my components by running the speaker wires through the wall to my listening room. I often say, "Nothing is the best", but this actually is. Of course, I don't get to show off my stuff, but that is not why I own it.
Great discussion, thanks for all the feedback. It sounds like some real results can be achieved with the right solutions. Per my other thread on subwoofer isolation/anchoring I ordered some Nobsound springs for low cost experimentation. I will let you know what I hear.
It does NOT affect the sound, it is just an annoyance.
Care to explain the logic behind that one? The author of that article states:
Likewise, I can't bear to hear/ readactualsnake oil vendors claiming that you'll get "cleaner highs", "more authority in the bass" or any of the other stupid things you may read elsewhere. The purpose is to stop transformers from growling (usually at no or light load). There is no magic, and it doesn't improve anything other than reduce the acoustic noise from the transformer(s). Anyone who claims otherwise is probably lying.
Sounds like something you latch onto. Very self reinforcing.
@mijostyn, "Electronics are not effected by vibration. Electrons could give a hoot. If they were we would have F22s crashing all over the place as they are completely controlled by electrons. If we blinded all these silly people they would never be able to tell which devices were isolated or not excepting perhaps the turntable. Silly in the Monty Python sense. This circus is subsidized by reputable manufacturers who do not want to alienate potential customers, they remain quiet on the subject. Others take advantage of it. Why not? All is fair when it comes to making money. If people want to spend their money on silly things it is their prerogative and problem. Big Pharma does this in spades."
Unfortunately for some of us, the trillion dollar Big Pharma industry now has governments acting as enforcers.
However when it comes to audio there isn’t a shred of evidence that vibration (or even G Forces) can affect the movement of electrons.
As you say, if you were to believe there was, then you’d probably never board an aeroplane. Or ever get into an electric car. Can you imagine doing 70mph and all the electrics suddenly decide they’re not playing ball?
I’m guessing some of us might be wondering about the relationship of vibration and mechanical transducers eg cartridges, tonearms, turntables, loudspeakers (headphones and microphones) etc.
Surely this an area where designers with advanced measuring resources are better equipped to find answers and solutions, if they’re needed, than we are? On the other hand it seems harmless enough to experiment with bits of sorbothane/rubber pads and a few springs under your loudspeakers if you feel that environmental resonance is high in your location.
Where I live (a 100 year+ old house with wooden floorboards just yards away from an increasingly busy main road), every now and then I can almost feel (as well as hear) the sound of a heavy vehicle as it passes by outside.
I always felt that my turntable sounded best on a light rigid wooden table than any of the wall shelves I tried. I wouldn’t be surprised to discover that, apart from perhaps very late in the evening, the entire house was in a constant state of gentle resonance caused by the traffic.
It does NOT affect the sound, it is just an annoyance.
Care to explain the logic behind that one? The author of that article states:
Likewise, I can’t bear to hear/ read actual snake oil vendors claiming that you’ll get "cleaner highs", "more authority in the bass" or any of the other stupid things you may read elsewhere. The purpose is to stop transformers from growling (usually at no or light load). There is no magic, and it doesn’t improve anything other than reduce the acoustic noise from the transformer(s). Anyone who claims otherwise is probably lying.
Sounds like something you latch onto. Very self reinforcing.
All the best, Nonoise
As I said, and as you can also read it, it is an annoyance generated by a mechanical issue. NOTHING DIFFERENT will come out of your speakers. It is a SEPARATE issue.
@pauly - speakers generate internal vibrations from their drivers moving and push vibrations to the floor vibrating everything.
I’m waiting for you to tell me we use our ears to hear and our eyes to see next.
That is why you want to isolate them and take the vibrations out of the cabinets.
Nobody “takes” vibrations out of cabinets. Cabinets are designed to resist resonances, and by coupling them to a large mass (read, the floor) their propensity to resonate is further reduced.
Most good speakers either come with spikes or platforms or something to decouple them from the floor.
Spikes couple speakers to the floor. Take off the spikes and the cabinet will exhibit increased resonance. Coupling to the floor reduces speaker cabinet resonance.
Same is true for amps, phono stages, CD players, DACs, you name it
I’ve never seen a phono stage, CD player or DAC that comes with spikes and meant to go on the floor. All the ones I owned were meant to go onto a properly isolated audio stand.
These components require the opposite of what speakers require. They do not produce sufficient vibration to need coupling to the floor, and benefit from isolation to prevent floor borne resonances getting to them.
Is it possible people do not know the first thing about electricity? It is generated by moving a wire through a magnetic field. It's a fact. You could look it up.
Move a wire through a magnetic field and you get a current moving through the wire. Vibrations are, and you could look this one up as well, moving.
So vibrations most definitely do affect electrons.
Coupling / Decoupling does not have to be an either/or proposition. I put my components on cones to couple them to a heavy base (marble or solid wood) and then decouple that base from the floor or stand with springs. I believe this is the principle of Townshend podiums, as they use a heavy steel base between the speakers and springs...
Agree 100% on the coupling/decoupling "challenge". Suspect I would pick a material other than marble, but everyone is looking for a different sonic expression from their system
All that anyone has to do, is experiment a bit and try some things.
And of course, trust your own ears. If there is no discernible difference, then there isn’t one for you. And one can scrap the concept, modify it or go in a different direction all together.
What a great combination of differing skills we get to apply. Math, science, abstract thought experiments, creativity, fabrication of stuff etc.
At at the end of it all, we have an opportunity to listen to the music we so love with an even greater sense of please from the sonic attributes.
Nobody “takes” vibrations out of cabinets. Cabinets are designed to resist resonances, and by coupling them to a large mass (read, the floor) their propensity to resonate is further reduced.
It all depends on the design. Tonian Labs are some of the finest and most realistic speakers you'll hear and their cabinets resonate like the body of an instrument.
@pauly- sorry for the confusion, phono stages and amps have vibrations in capacitors for example, and I meant to say coupling them to the base can transform them out, AND isolating the boxes is beneficial in keeping the external vibrations out, as @georgehoffman60 mentioned above.
I wasn’t convinced of any of this until I heard some very believable testimonials and first tried isolation on my turntable and was absolutely blown away by the improvement. So much so that speakers were next. VERY big improvement. Then the phono stage, then the amp. Not all changes are equal and I suspect results vary based on equipment and environment. Also, the solution for the turntable was different from the speakers and different from the phono stage and amp. Only thing I haven’t treated is my power conditioner because I wanted one box that doesn’t float so it doesn’t move when I handle records and put them on top of it. I use Herbie’s Tenderfeet under that, which I haven’t heard much of a difference, but that box probably has less room for improvement than the others, but still could benefit from the better treatments. If I didn’t need that “work” area, I would treat that like the boxes. I use roller blocks which transfer vibrations out while isolating the components. They can be combined with multilayer platforms if you want to take it to a next level. Like everything in this hobby, you can always do more, but these gave me great bang for the buck. Much less expensive than upgrading components. Interestingly enough, according to Peter, the owner of Symposium Acoustics, whose products I use on my speakers and amp and phono stage and has been doing this for 29 years, the biggest sound improvement he has heard is with CD players. I disconnected mine 15 years ago when they started making records in greater numbers and haven’t regretted it for one minute.
@pauley - have you tried any of this? Listening is believing.
Nobody “takes” vibrations out of cabinets. Cabinets are designed to resist resonances, and by coupling them to a large mass (read, the floor) their propensity to resonate is further reduced.
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It's called spectrial decay. And coupling speakers to anything only drains the vibration to somewhere else.
Removing the bass drivers from the cabinet all together is the best solution. Small planars and ribbons are not known to be big contributors to vibration or collectors of distortion.. They disappear pretty easy..
BUT if you can't remove or don't want to remove the bass from the cabinet, HEAVY dense construction, sound coat and dampening applied inside helps a lot. A narrow front baffle and complete decoupling from the floor, or as much as possible really helps. Spikes are the worst, Air is the best, everything else is a compromise. Even hanging a speaker is better. Actually works very well, spring hangers..
BUT 425 pounds speakers don't "Hang" well.. I had a pair at 1200 lbs each, you better decouple expensive ribbons.. from vibrating. You'll spend half your life repairing them or worse yet PAYING someone to repair them.. Strathearns and EMT sure didn't like vibration. They didn't even like being shipped anywhere.. Fragile!!
Hi, try Omicron stuff under your speaker, amplifier, TT, ecc....the more your system is high level, the more you'll hear differences...then you'll decide if you want to come back. My Usher BE-10 speaker got better. Regards.
Let me say it a different way. The cabinets ability to get rid of vibration.
How fast and How much.
You can control certain frequencies to the structure via sound coat and or dampening structurally. Drivers themselves can have dampening material added to the basket web.
ALL these thing INCREASE decay rates on materials used. If I was measuring a room for decay rates that's different. After the fact is almost TOO late..
Your plot is "Cumulative", I'm referencing just materials and a way to increase decay rates and stop the (vibration) frequencies we are tracking from ever happening to begin with.. Different approach.. Destructive Harmonic and reduction is what mechanics do.. At least as a hydraulics and drive train guy.. The same approach to sound is not to far off.
It's more of a "Stay out of trouble" vs "Get out of trouble" approach..
Box design 101 if you really want to know..
Before the approach was "Single box cram it in there" It cost money to have separate structures. You see it all the time now with DBA and Swarm. GREAT sound can't come from one structure. I say it can't come from one structure per side either. Even modular SAT units like Wilson and quite a few others rely on delay via DSP or their version of it.. Call it what you want..
Midbass columns and Monitors are separate.
How can you possibly align the the acoustic centers of a MB to work in the same cabinet as the Mids and Highs.. If anybody says they can get it to measure right, they are messing with the mic position.. simple as that.. I've seen people claiming to fix other peoples speakers for a long time. Some of the CRAP I've seen.
Send ME, YOUR speakers to measure in my work shop and I'll fix them for you.. You got to be kidding me!!
Pretty ballsy if you ask me..
I say send me anyone's speakers and let me measure them in my shop.. LOL
Back yard is better.. BUT I promise I could find fault, or make adjustments some would prefer. Speaker building is FAR from being written in stone by one builders preference..
Especially production speakers vs 50 to 100 pairs ever made in mom and pop shops.. There is a few like that, cabinet shops..
On a professional level, a large part of my training and job was to identify and eliminate destructive vibrations in industrial machinery. Aside from the out of balance of any of the machinery's rotating component/components, the cause and affects are much the same as with audio - looseness or wear of any component which can creating a secondary vibration that transfers into and affects the performance of other components of the machinery and Internal and external forces that can excite or magnify a resonance through the machinery. The solution/solutions are much the same - isolate from external forces and sources of vibration, firmly couple to a firm foundation (smaller mass to a larger mass) dampen flimsy component shells/cases (most good components are designed with hefty cases and anti vibration in mind) and tighten anything loose.
As mentioned most good speakers are designed to eliminate resonance from their cabinet and with the use of spikes or cones what little there is can be coupled into the much larger mass of a floor or foundation and the amount of isolating, coupling or dampening needed with the components will depend on everyones different environment, situation and taste.
With my Maggies, I dampen and weight the flimsy footers with decorative shot bags (speaker cabinet resonance is not a problem). My components I coupled to thick Black Walnut bases with brass cones and my TT I isolated with home made iso pads, composed of multiple layers of felt and rubber. For me, the most reasonable and straight forward method of controlling vibration is usually the most cost effective and satisfying. This all works well for me and is as far as I care to take it. I have never been to a live concert or performance that sounded sterile and void and I have no desire to make my home system sound completely sterile and void.
We are all on our own journey, so experiment and go with what and how much works for you. Happy listening....Jim
I am satisfied with my 190 lb. speakers resting on cone feet on 12" 3000 psi steel reinforced concrete floor. For seismic reasons, I don’t want to put them on any sprung or moving platform.
I am satisfied (couldn’t live with) my VPI TNT VI without the Townshend Seismic Sink (a bladder, analogous to a sprung platform). It works fantastically well for me.
I use Stillpoints on pre-amps, phono power controller, isolation transformer. I use SR Mig SX footers under my EAR 890 amp. My COS Engineering DAC D1 sounds best on it’s own custom feet with it’s superthick and heavy chassis. My transport has a unique DIY solution, 3 1" ceramic marbles sitting on 1 1/8" rubber grommets. Better than commercial footers. Why, I don't know. Friends use them under their CD players as well.
Then there are airborne vibrations which are treated with Synergistic Research HFTs (36 on room walls and speakers) and two pair of Hallographs. The room is isolated through 16" thick custom engineered sound walls (with built in bass traps made of chambered activated charcoal), no openings (2 17" doors of same construction).
Vibrations are a way of life. I don’t worry about those that I haven’t treated.
190 lbs on points will move, that is way to light.. Add 200-250 to the top, then on springs...Mass load then spring load!! Getting close now..
Serious BASS in my shop. A speaker on spikes with any width to any side would be dancing across the floor.. Especially a wide front baffle. A round, ocular or convex tapered baffle design would work. A telephone pole would work..
I was tinkering yesterday on a pair of 24x24x60 bass boxed without drivers they are 220 or so.. 125 lbs in drivers 350 or more.. Then load the 2" top shelf with 200 lbs or so. STILL on springs...
I was rethinking 21" HE subs with 2 18" passives. I want to try Daytons new 21" subs for the shop.. REAL BAD!! Get ready for Halloween...
I tried mass loading the top with 60 lb steel plates. Robbed the life out of the speakers. Others had similar experience. 3-12" woofers per speaker, plenty of bass down to 25 Hz in a 19'6" X 15' X 10' room. I don't want any more bass than I have as it is tuned with HFTs and balanced with the mids and highs.
There's some good information regarding the causes of loudspeaker cabinet vibrations in the following video where Andrew Jones talks to Upscale Audios Kevin Deal about his Elac DBR62 bookshelves.
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