Why do solid state audio electronics with no moving parts need or benefit from vibration control?
It makes perfect sense that turntables, CD transports, R2R tape decks, loudspeakers & tubed electronics (w/ potentially micro phonic tubes) might all benefit from various methods of vibration control or mitigation but I don’t see why anything else would. Any thoughts??
I am a believer in resonance control thru the use of mechanical grounding. I do this in my own products offered for cello and bass and as product adviser for the predecessor and the now retitled Live Vibe Audio.
A few yrs ago after reconfiguring my Altmann DAC assembling a 12 chip DAC tower on a separate board it required a even larger 12 volt battery around 40 pounds. I used this set up for a few months. I am forever experimenting and decided to place the battery on a LiveVibe platform that was just alone in a corner.
I placed the heavyweight battery on the brass coupling discs and then the battery on top of this assembly. The battery is a totally passive device though one with a chemical reaction.
There was an improvement in sound of my system with the sleepy battery at slumber on top of the platform.
I saw a demo at AXPONA years ago with a company selling antivibration products and platforms. They had an A/B switch of some kind hooked up that let you do comparisons. This was not a demo of turntables. I was shocked that I did actually hear a difference. Was the difference better? I wasn't sure and this was listening to headphones. I do know these products do make a difference in solid state products but to what degree I don't know. I would imagine it would be entirely system dependent. It would be entirely up to the individuals to decide if it was worth the money, but it does impact sound!
Isn’t this as simple as "the piezoelectric effect works in both directions"? If you pump enough wattage through a dummy load (large resisters), they will play music at a very low volume. That effect is small, but multiply it by all the components in your chain. I believe this may be important in a high end system, but it’s the last thing on my list to dive deeply into because it’s complicated and requires a lot of trial and error and a good system. And microphonics are another reason I avoid tubes. I just bought my first Shatki Air Stone and liked it enough to buy another. Some of it’s effect may be mechanical since it’s heavy like a small stone and has a rubber coupling mat on the bottom. There’s enough reviewers agreeing on the importance of vibration control and tuning that it seems worth a little trial and error. The Cable Company has served me well recently and they have a wide variety of products.
I loved the AI quote, here’s another one from Claude 3.5, aren’t all conductors crystals a sort of crystal? Also think about the clock crystals in your digital gear.
DM- is the piezoelectric effect different from magnetic induced emf?
Yes, the piezoelectric effect is different from magnetically induced EMF (electromotive force). Let me briefly explain each:
Piezoelectric effect:
Occurs in certain materials, typically crystals or ceramics
Mechanical stress or pressure produces an electric charge
Works in reverse too - applying an electric field causes mechanical deformation
Does not involve magnetic fields
Magnetically induced EMF:
Based on Faraday’s law of electromagnetic induction
Changing magnetic field induces a voltage in a conductor
Commonly used in electrical generators and transformers
Involves magnetic fields and their interaction with conductors
The key difference is that piezoelectric effect converts mechanical energy directly to electrical energy (or vice versa) without involving magnetism, while magnetically induced EMF involves changing magnetic fields to generate electricity.
In General solid state circuits are not effected by acoustic vibration. The exception is in cheeper ceramic capacitors they can be effected by hi frequency vibration and the dielectric layers separate.
One of the highest vibration environments would be inside a speaker cabinet putting out high SPL even stronger mechanical vibrations don't effect SQ or reliability of modern (within about 5 years) powered speakers.
In General solid state circuits are not effected by acoustic vibration. The exception is in cheeper ceramic capacitors they can be effected by hi frequency vibration and the dielectric layers separate.
One of the highest vibration environments would be inside a speaker cabinet putting out high SPL even stronger mechanical vibrations don't effect SQ or reliability of modern (within about 5 years) powered speakers.
OP.. it is beneficial in this hifi game to try and listen instead of trying to “understand “ you only dig yourself a deep hole trying to “prove” or “understand” many things in this world esp music and hifi…The first time I saw The Dead I dropped acid and listened….. Trying to understand the experience would have been pointless to me…
Analogj why would you say ignorance. I would suggest that if you tried things on your system that you don’t know why that’s Ignorance.
there is a engineering rational for the reasons which were mentioned. So what’s the premise that your cD transport would benefit from vibration isolation.
As with so much in high end audio & often life, there’s so many differing opinions & Often no definitive science as to why. Added to this, we all hear & perceive things differently & have different tastes. This is sort of similar to solid state amps generally measuring better than tubed ones but often don’t sound as good. Thanks everyone for all your responses. Fun stuff!
It always has a positive effect, the key question is how much does it improve the sound you hear and how much does it cost and are you willing to spend. Anyone who denies it either is just plain stubborn of cannot hear properly. Or maybe their equipment is somehow already isolated well enough for it to not make much of a difference (highly doubtful).
It is the easiest thing to test/compare. In my experience, I've had the most improvement with my turntable (by far the biggest change), then my speakers, then my amp and lastly my preamp. Supposedly, it even helps with the a power/line conditioner, but I haven't reached that deepest end of the insanity yet (or fuses, or contact fluid or super expensive cables).
The main thing here is to audition it and see if you like the result. If you don't, return it. But why dismiss something out of ignorance. I've tried things where I liked what they did, and things that I didn't. I tried some Walker Audio brass/lead discs that seemed to deaden the sound when placed on equipmemt. I got a 5" thick maple board to put under my turntable and it did a remarkable job of opening up and clarifying the midrange.
It's cool just to try and experiment. Maybe you may not understand why it makes a difference, but it really only matters that it does or it doesn't.
Not my experience. I put Vera-Fi VBHs under my kit one set at a time, listened then added the next set listened and so on...
I first put Vera-Fi VBHs under my Audiolab 6000 CDT to amazing affect (we’re on the same page there) followed by my EVS 1200 class D amp> Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC/Pre> AA PS 5 optional outboard power supply, itself a huge improvement, then my Emerald Physics 3.4 open baffle speakers which do vibrate quite a bit, and there too big benefit
I've had some experience with using a "Vibra-Plane" device to quell vibration. It was a total surprise to hear the results of placing a preamp, a CD player and a turntable on it in rotating sequence. An immediate improvement was obvious on all components tested. I was told that electron microscopes are commonly placed on the VibraPlane to improve imaging, but I have no experience with that use. This post might encourage me to dig it out of storage and give it another try !
@donavabdearOkay, but it still sounds like you used some top notch equipment built to higher standards and not some off the shelf generics. I guess I read too many reviews.
@nonoise
I used the very best professional recording equipment at the time including Nagra, Fostex, and Zaxcom, I've spent millions on sound equipment for location recording. Only the Zaxcom recorders were solid state they were the first company to have a completely solid state recording chain including being able to record in the wireless transmitter itself fully solid state with no moving parts. With the solid state recorders you could subject them to vibration like jets cockpits and rollercoasters and drag race cars
I think you are mixing up some important factors on the effects of vibration on sound quality. If there are moving parts in the equipment or circuit vibration of course is detrimental to sound quality because of mechanical considerations. If the equipment has no moving parts, not even a spinning hard drive, the equipment will not be venerable to mechanical vibrations. Switches knobs anything non solid state will fail with enough vibration.
Pick up a Mix magazine and look up the monitors used in professional recording studios you'll find nearly all the monitors are powered internally. This means that if what you say is true, that vibration affects sound, there would be a limit of what the mix engineers would hear to make recordings and mixes because of vibration internally in the speaker. I use powered speakers professionally now because only a few years ago the technology to allow very precise monitoring didn't exist. The argument that vibration affects solid state sound is simply false, understanding that vibration affects mechanical equipment is true.
@donavabdear
Was the gear you placed in violently shaking environments off the shelf gear from some audio saloon or Best Buy or were they built to spec to withstand the event?
Were there brands that performed better than others?
I remember when touch controls first came out on washing machines and dryers and the failure rate of the controls was high due to the shaking, spinning and vibrations that ensued. They had to go back and better isolate the controls as well as build them to higher specs to withstand the NVH.
As for powered speakers, there are many designers who frown upon DACs and amps in speakers due to the vibrations from the speaker cones and some, for the longest time, have constructed their crossovers to reside outside of the speakers for the very same reasons, long before they started jamming other junk inside.
@nonoise
I do have some experience putting high end recorders and microphones in violently shaking environments in my recording career. When you put a recorder that is solid state with no moving parts you don't have to worry about vibration. In the days of Naga reel to reel recorders you couldn't use them in a race car or a roller coster simply because the Gs would cause the tape to unspool, DAT tapes wouldn't work in race cars or roller coasters either because they had moving parts. But when solid state recorders came out we could put them anywhere even on jets and other high G environments.
Consider powered speakers with DACs, amps, crossovers, network circuits inside the speakers. Powered speakers are the norm in recording studios all over the world if vibration is so clearly detrimental in sound how can recording studio monitors be internally powered.
In home audio you are beset with so many vibration issues created by playing music it's really best not to listen to anything. It's simply not worth the risk.
I’m not sure I follow all of that but so far, no one has explained how physical vibrational energy gets transformed into electrical energy in a solid state device w/ no moving parts.
Both vibrational energies share the same space. It is called electro-mechanical vibration. Electricity is the electro and the mechanical is created by transformers and capacitors vibrating, sound pressure levels, environmental noise, chassis vibrating, the listening suite, etc.
Parts in a solid-state design are moving. Unfortunately, we cannot detect microns of movement with our eyes.
Glennewdick, good post.
I am not a theoretical physicist. One would require their opinions in abundance to answer your request for an explanation. Then you would need the knowledge to understand how they arrived at those outcomes.
Proving that resonance energy transfer increases performance is highly audible. All equipment builds resonance. Evacuating the resonance is the key to listening to more quality already built into all your equipment. The results are extremely audible.
@jonwolfpellMy reply was a bit out of frustration as any and all responses you gave were just versions of your opening statement, making me wonder if you were a fan of Amir.
Glenn thus far is thee only one who has provided anything close to an actual explanation on the matter although I still have real doubts that in practice in this case, it actually has an effect. Of course what was described is exactly how phono cartridges , microphones & speakers work. Thank you and this forum for that.
Btw, Nonoise, this question was simply an intellectual curiosity & not a fear of a nervous breakdown. After 44 years of marriage, 3 kids, 2 grandkids & a few thousand employees from multiple businesses over that time, & several higher end sound systems of the time period, I think if I were prone to such an issue, it would have already occurred…….
If you listened to a CD on your player and then placed that same player on a LiveVibe platform you will hear a big improvement in all areas of SQ.Playing thru headphones no speakers..TomD
The sound coming out of your loudspeaker is probably the largest source of vibration in your listening room. So why have all those sensitive electronics in the same room as the vibration source? And I know that there are some exceptions, but nearly all loudspeakers have their crossover electronics within their enclosures. There are efforts in some designs for vibration control, but isn't the interior of a loudspeaker cabinet a highly vibrant environment?
The consensus of this thread is that vibration is a horrible thing that must be combated, but a look at the system pages indicates that it is not really addressed.
In my own system I use Solid Steel and Quadrispire racks with some additional rubber and cork mats under the electronics. The electronics are in the same room as the loudspeakers. The transducers get a more elaborate setup. Nothing really expensive, but I figure it can't hurt.
Basic electrical theory. A moving magnetic field will induce a current in a conductor. or a moving conductor in a magnetic field will induce a current in the conductor. So if you have vibrations etc. you have a moving conductor or magnetic field. There is lots of magnetic fields (many moving due to AC power) inside audio equipment. so if we vibrate the whole thing ....you get the picture?
Something a fellow member Krissy sent me this morning and something I have been saying for years. Where there is motion there is resonant energy..Isolation can only exist in the absence of matter. TomD
Here's Krissy.
https://heartsoundaudioofficial.blogspot.com/2024/06/visible-electron-transfer-in-solids.html?m=1
Vibration reduction and control in high-end audio systems can improve sound quality by minimizing the negative effects of unwanted vibrations on the performance of audio components. Vibration can cause various issues, such as audible noise, distortion, and reduced resolution, which can degrade the overall listening experience. By implementing vibration reduction measures, the system can deliver clearer, more accurate, and more detailed sound. Here are some mechanisms by which vibration reduction improves sound quality:
1. Reducing audible noise: Vibrations can create noise that is picked up by the audio components, leading to a low-frequency hum or rattle. By controlling vibrations, the system reduces the introduction of these unwanted sounds, resulting in a cleaner and more enjoyable audio signal.
2. Minimizing distortion: Vibrations can cause microphonic effects, where the mechanical vibrations are converted into electrical signals, leading to added distortion in the audio output. By reducing vibrations, the system lowers the occurrence of microphonic distortion, allowing for a more precise and accurate sound reproduction.
3. Enhancing resolution and detail: Vibrations can blur the fine details in an audio signal, making it harder to discern subtle nuances in the music. By controlling vibrations, the system preserves the resolution and detail of the audio signal, enabling a more engaging and immersive listening experience.
4. Improving imaging and soundstage: Vibrations can affect the stability of audio components, leading to a less focused and precise soundstage. By reducing vibrations, the system maintains the positioning and separation of audio elements, creating a more coherent and realistic soundstage.
5. Preserving the performance of delicate components: High-end audio systems often include delicate components, such as turntable cartridges or ribbon tweeters, that are particularly susceptible to the negative effects of vibrations. By implementing vibration control measures, the system ensures that these sensitive components perform optimally, delivering the best possible sound quality.
Examples of vibration reduction methods in high-end audio systems include:
* Turntable isolation: Using isolation platforms, feet, or pucks to reduce the transfer of vibrations from the turntable to the surroundings, ensuring a stable and quiet platform for vinyl playback.
* Component supports and racks: Specialized audio furniture designed to minimize the transfer of vibrations between components and the supporting surfaces, often featuring materials like isolation spikes, cones, or pucks.
* Vibration damping materials: Using constrained layer damping or other vibration-absorbing materials within audio components or enclosures to reduce the resonance and vibration within the components themselves.
* Suspension systems: Implementing suspension systems for speakers, such as spike footers, to decouple the speaker from the floor, reducing the transfer of vibrations from the speaker to the listening environment.
* Air-bearing or magnetic-bearing turntables: Utilizing air-bearing or magnetic-bearing technology in turntables to minimize physical contact and thus reduce the impact of vibrations on the turntable’s performance.
In summary, vibration reduction and control in high-end audio systems improve sound quality by reducing audible noise, minimizing distortion, enhancing resolution and detail, improving imaging and soundstage, and preserving the performance of delicate components. Various methods, such as isolation, damping materials, and suspension systems, can be employed to achieve these benefits.
What's the harm in trying something that has a return policy? Are you afraid you might hear differences but being unable to measure it, you'll have a nervous breakdown?
If this truly can happen, think about the effects it might have on the electronics in a high speed fighter jet or space rocket.
The folk who design high speed fighter jets and space rockets take into account the effects of vibration in every way possible to ensure reliability. Everything is overbuilt to ensure proper functioning, but then, they aren't listening to their stereos while flying, are they? Take any piece of SS gear and try to play it on a space shuttle or F-16 fighter jet and get back to me on that.
I’m not sure I follow all of that but so far, no one has explained how physical vibrational energy gets transformed into electrical energy in a solid state device w/ no moving parts.
If this truly can happen, think about the effects it might have on the electronics in a high speed fighter jet or space rocket.
Electricity establishes vibration on all circuits, capacitors, transformers, transistors, resistors, and parts. You cannot stop vibrations from taking place if using electricity or man-made power sources.
Sound is Vibration. You will never destroy, isolate, decouple, or terminate vibrations, particularly in a vibrating musical environment. Once you get past that reality, the fears of vibration become less of a concern as the initial vibrations provide the dynamics and harmonic layers we seek as listeners.
In audio, vibration has become more of a fear than understanding. You are in a musical environment where sound is present. The speakers vibrate, electronics, equipment racking, structural angles and surfaces, and everything else, including the room develop resonance caused by vibrations.
Resonance clogs all signal pathways such as electrical, electro-mechanical, and acoustic. Mechanical grounding establishes a path for resonance to evacuate the equipment in real time to Earth’s ground. Equipment Operational Efficiency is the result. Effortless operation, volume increases, and increased musical qualities are easily heard when operational efficiency is presented.
Having an independent third party do thermal imaging testing is one way to prove this hypothesis yields scientific merits. Solid-state, valves, or hybrids display a difference in operation via temperature reduction. The tests will be published when finally completed supported by written opinions from leading engineers. The costs incurred for testing of this type are quite high.
Financial outlay is one of the primary reasons the Audio Industry does not provide independent testing. It is easier to advertise, tell a story, or mimic your own versus investing in third-party physical tests based on physics.
"Hearsay belief not scientifically validated." Not so fast...
At CAF many years ago, I passed by a vendor demonstrating arched-wood isolation devices that were sold to fit under stereo component's feet. These devices were the same type of laminated-wood product that Fank Lloyd Wright designed into trusses to support the roofs of buildings.
The vendor also had a microphone that was attached to a PC and used graphic display software so that I could see, in real-time, 3D (two dimensions + color) the transmitted sound frequency and intensity of the noise in the hallway, my voice and my knuckle tapping on the stand.
Although I did not buy the product, the apparatus clearly showed how effective the wood-arcs were at mitigating sound transmission. 100% scientific.
Sorry, but lack of experience does not evoke 'Hearsay'.
Last week I began replacing cheap vibration device under all my kit, including speakers (which I did last) with Vera-Fi LLC (VeriBlack Holes) VBHs ($199/4). I started with just my Audiolab 6000 CDT, placing one directly under the spindle and was amazed, I then put them under my EVS 1200 amp (based on dual mono ICEpower AS 1200 modules). That was a head scratcher as at first the sound was flattened/rolled off: ~ 10 minutes later everything was fine again> Could it be the VBHs needed to settle under the much heavier amp? Next my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 (DAC/Pre) a definite thumbs up. I also have the optional AA PS 5 outboard power supply, similarly amazing improvement as was the transport. Closing out (well sort of) I placed 2 each under the fronts of my Emerald Physics 3.4 open baffle speakers, but ran out of gas (76 yo) and haven’t yet added the remaining 2 to the back of the speakers. I did a review which you might be interesting in finding. I do need to add more comments after listening to Tony Bennett and Friends vol1, Eagles Hell Freezes Over on Hotel California (IMP Joe Walsh’s guitar is the best version of all their albums) and sounded spectacular, as did the rest of the album. Finally, last night Jay Leonhart Salamander Pie DMP
Funny, there must be something to this. I have anti vibration control under a dozen pieces of equipment, except for my SS amp and SS preamp. And I never over thought it.
Your head and particularly your teeth vibrate. Why not wear wrestler's protective headgear and plastic mouthpiece? Wouldn't you then hear more minute musical details?
@OP "Solid State" devices are full of moving parts - capacitors and transformers in particular. But in any event just because something is solid doesn't mean it doesn't resonate.
Edison got in just at the right time for supplying his High End Audio Replay device.
Mechanised anything was in very little use, so only natural influences to be concerned about.
The Seismographs activity showed substantial changes to their readings during Covid Lock Down Periods, that was the dream period in the last 70 years for the use of Audio Equipment, in relation to ambient energies impacting detrimentally on the end sound. ,
Thus far, from the responses here, links provided & other information I found on the internet, I have found nothing that explains in any logical way why physical vibration affects solid state circuitry. I’m going to ask a few people I know w/ a wealth of many years of high end audio & pro sound experience. I’ll report back if I come up w/ anything worth mentioning.
I find this subject quite frustrating if not maddening. It would be easy to demonstrate whether or not vibration control is necessary or not with a variety of solid state components and yet... I've yet to see this happen. I mean, how hard is it to put a PA speaker in front of an amplifier and measure the effects, or lack thereof?
A long long time ago I owned a Radio Shack phono preamp. It literally rang like a bell. Probably due to cheap ceramic caps, but besides that singular piece of gear I've never heard this happen again nor have I seen it demonstrated in solid state gear. What if, for instance, vibration testing led to better component selection? Or what if we found out it doesn't matter below 150 dB? We may never know because any testing in this field has not become apparent.
I know that most everything can matter in an even decent mid fi system & noise is a real enemy of high level resolution. That said, how does minimal physical vibration create noise in a solid state electronic circuit? Any EE’s out there who understand & appreciate good audio systems??
observe the paper read out from a seismograph. all those squiggly lines. now add resonance feedback from playing music over the top of that. now add any industrial noise, or traffic noise, or waves or even airplane noise.
all those things are the resonance noise floor of your system, and that is adding background noise to whatever you hear. so it subtracts from the purity of the music reproduction.
it effects the racks, the electronics, the cables, the sources, and the speakers. might be more obvious and easier to understand in a turntable where the stylus is reading vibrations, but it's effecting everything.
you can eliminate almost 100% of that.
and electronics are definitely affected by that noise. the noise reaches your speakers as distortion. and that distortion locates the sound as coming from your driver, instead of from the music in the soundstage. so it lowers the realism. lowers the immersion of the music. adds an edge, masks detail.
I follow the damping/isolation prowess of Angela Gilbert Yeung, but long before that I started damping everything. Transformer isolation is a biggie, for sure. The top panels of gear are very "ringy" and "reverberant" sounding. Damp them with a Dynamat type material and you will be surprised that the component will now sound quieter and more resolute through your system. Oh, I have been damping speaker horns for over 50 years now. My best, MrD.
A long time ago during a heated discussion along this line, a member who was a physicist, told of how they measured lots of vibrations in concrete (or some other super dense material). This was in an isolated room, away from outside influences and I believe it was in response to music being played. Normal measuring devices couldn’t pick it up.
When I got my Iso-Acoustic Orea footers for my integrated and SACD player, I tried them out on the integrated first, thinking it would be of minor, if any, improvement and wouldn’t be apparent if I tried the SACD player first. I was wrong. The Oreas made a slight but notable difference in the sound, all for the better. More focus, better sound staging, etc.
All of this was done on my carpenter made audio/video stand made of 1" thick maple. You won’t know until you try it.
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