I understand room treatment can give the best bang but lets count that out for now. From a purely component perspective what do you think I should upgrade? Im leaning towards the turntable. It was my first table and altough I upgraded the cart, its only a $500 table. I was thinking of maybe buying the Rega Planar 6 w/ Aria MC cart.
It is better to have two separate systems for 2 channel audio and HT.
I had a $3K Yamaha receiver (one of their flagships over 20 years ago) that sound much better on movies (with DVDs and Blue-Ray disc) than my 2 channel systems. My Yamaha sounds much worse than a $500 Chinese tube integrated amp for 2 channel music.
Also, my Klipsh KLF20 (a HT speaker with KLF7, ...) sound much better on movies than my other much more expensive stereo speakers. However, it sounds much worse on stereo music compared to my other more expensive stereo speakers.
It will be tough to have one system to serve both purposes. I had tried with my Klipsch speakers and a few HT receivers, but 2 channel music just did not sound right, and moved on to two separate systems since then.
Playing 2 channels through a multi-channel amp? While it got a very good review in SoundandVision back in 2018, consider this old saying: jack of all trades, master of NONE. IMO, start there
Definitely check out the great reviews for the LSA Warp 1 amp: MSRP $1200. I think you'll be shocked and amazed
What do you feel is the 'weak link' in your system based on how you use it?
Upgrading the Rega P6 will be a significant upgrade - my initial concern is you won't be able to realize the difference with the home theatre receiver. The change in materials on the table and the better cartridge are very discernable in a revealing system.
I'm not familiar with your specific units; I experienced a significant upgrade when I transitioned from home theatre receiver to an integrated amplifier. Going source first provides future value if you upgrade the pre-amp/amp down the road with equipment more revealing than your HT amp.
you need a bonafide 2 channel amplifier as the foundation for your system before you do anything else, or you will not get the most out of any other upgrades.
Hey Icegeek, I will bet your rig sounds good. It reminds me of a rig I put together. Many have suggested changing out your Yamaha. I’ll also had a multi thousand dollar Yamaha processor with direct mode and all the other bells and whistles. I upgraded cart, phono pre, speakers. When I finally went for a modest Odyssey Cyclops the sound was so much better. So that’s my story and what made the most noticeable and rewarding difference. Everything prior to that was an improvement but not that big a deal. The amp is the heart of it. Get that sorted would be my suggestion. Everything else looks great.
I, too, have a blended system, but my AVR is an older Denon AVR-X4000 (which was their flagship AVR at the time). The important thing is that your Yamaha appears to have pre-outs. I run my Denon pre-outs through a Parasound P5 preamp then to a B&K EX-442 Sonata amplifier to power my Maggie MMG mains. My surround speakers (Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2) come off the P5 and run through an Adcom GFA 6000 5-channel amp (nothing else is connected to it but those two surround speakers). I don't use the internal Denon amps for ANYTHING - I don't run a center channel speaker. Denons run famously hot already, and mine still does, even with all the power handling offloaded to two separate amps. If you don't need surround speakers, great. You probably don't even need a separate preamp, but I wanted one strictly for two channel music (or 2.2, as it currently stands). I'd say that, from my angle, one of the easiest ways to improve your sound is to get your mains off the Yamaha AVR receiver and feed them from a separate amplifier. That would be my first move. If you don't want to add another component (which certainly makes sense ) then the alternative is to do as suggested: get an integrated with a HT bypass. The key to these blended systems (and getting them to sound their best for their respective applications) is to have a preamp somewhere in the chain with a HT bypass. Gotta have it, IMO, to carve out as much of the "video" signal path from the music signal path.
I’d not spend $2k for a phono stage. Heck you can find the PS Audio phono stage used for less than $500, which provides excellent results.
i’d upgrade the Turntable. $2k goes along way on the used market. I just bought a new MMF9.3 for $1800. But no doubt, save funds for an integrated amplifier! Immediately.
Definitely, definitely take out the Yamaha. Doesn't matter how expensive it is or good it is for multichannel listening. You want a 2 channel amp with some toroids. Either an integrated or a preamp/amp combo which has home theater bypass. Then you can still use the whole system. At $2000 budget, look used.
Probably the OP doesn’t have room or budget, but my advice would be to keep the Home theater gear as a separate system, and add a dedicated 2 Chanel rig. They can share the same subs in some cases. I run 2 separate system in one room. The Home theater speakers are stuck in corners, etc as it’s not my priority and the 2 Chanel speakers are placed further into the room. Since I have a tube preamp and tube input section on my amps, I don’t want to run tubes while watching movies.
I echo on the used hi-end amp like Hegel around $2k. The Hegel h160 you were referring to though has one catch. The midrange could sound lean particularly at low volume according to Tarun @ A British Audiophile. The newer Hegel h190 replacement model corrects it but is more expensive. Otherwise the used h160 presents itself a rather good value since its internal DAC is also very good. You got a almost $1k DAC with an 2015 integrated amp wholistic package for under $2k.
You received a sound advice to sell the yamaha and get an integrated like Hegel.
You’re on the wrong path with the Marantz TT-15 (killer table/cartridge combo) that you will run it into that Yamaha / project DS bottleneck and will successfully offset your $2000 purchase. Enjoy!
Ok I am spending my $2k on the Marantz TT-15. After all your advice and looking at reviews of that table it seems like a steal. I will report back. Thanks everyone
Don't get hung up on the ratings game that is not part of the HiFi world. You are listening for sound quality not looking at numbers on the sales brochure. If you must look at numbers look at what it weighs per amp channel after looking specs up looks like yours weighs 3 pounds a channel. The Hagel that was recommended above weights over twenty pounds per channel. Which do you think have a better power supply? Bigger transformer in in? My amp is rated lower than yours and weighs over two hundred pounds a channel. How low of ohms can your speaker go and your amp still be stable? Years ago the appogee duetta signature was one of the best speakers in the world and they changed the amplifier construction they went down to a half an ohm or less and many amps just blew up trying to drive an almost dead short. Might be an idea for you to visit some truely high end stores and listen to some demos. Go listen to a half million dollar home theater system and you will understand that numbers are just about meaningless sales brochure stuff.
I think you're right. A better TT and cart would make a huge impact. For under $2,000. I love the Marantz TT-15. It's a great table made by Clearaudio and comes with a Clearaudio Virtuoso v2 cartridge. It sells for $1,700. If you go to buy the cartridge only it's $1,200. Great deal.
Since this on Audiogon, it should go without saying that you can get more for your money buying used, even at these semi-inflated prices. Lots of options.
You have to be a little careful using watts per channel. A good audio amp with high current could provide a much better drive and sound better with much less wpc. Indirectly the current is indicated by the wpc delivered into various impedance. A great amp with high current will double the watts per channel from 16 to 8 to 4 ohms. So, perhaps 100, 200, and 400Wpc. High end audio stuff will have much higher performance for the specifications, the noice floor will be much lower… which will be satisfying at a much lower value. Surround processors put out a lot of noise and require cranking up to sound good.
To cover all the facets of getting where you want to go I recommend getting a copy of Robert Harley’s book The Complete Guide to High End Audio. You have a sense of where you want to go, and getting there on a small budget is definitely possible. But it will require very carefully chosen components. I highly recommend used ones made for high end audio.
@icegeek, this one is easy. Get a second sub and proper 2 way crossover. This will get your system stompin for sure. Everything else in the chain is minor in comparison. It is always at the back end of the system that improvements are most noticeable. If you pull 80 to 100 Hz away from your focals you will lower distortion and increase your headroom as much as 10 dB. That is twice as loud. Clipping will be much less common. You ALWAYS need two or more subwoofers. It takes at least two to smooth out room irregularities but the more the merrier. The bass in the room will be more even and powerful.
Forget the amp for now. You want the bass out of those Arias. The result will be even better. You would need an amp 8 times as powerful to get the same result. We are also not talking about just volume but clean volume. When your system can play at higher intermediate volumes (90 dB) super cleanly the experience is a lot more like being there.
@davedwordshort answer is if you replace your AVR with 2-channel, you can only play back 2 channels (L-R stereo) of a multi-channel recording. Consider though that most multi-channel audio releases also include 2-channel stereo. Frankly, most of the re-channeling of old releases isn't all that great (unless we're talking Pink Floyd), and you'll get more enjoyment out of a great 2-channel system with millions of available recordings than mediocre multi-channel with only a limited amount of available source material.
I have 7.1 so I'll be keeping the Yammy for HT. I'm thinking of external amp with HT bypass being fed by a miniDSP so I can get Dirac Live (I need major correction in my room and can't treat it)
Please excuse my question as a newbie. I assume that the Yamaha Aventage RX-2070 (amp) also handles quad Blu-ray. I am in the same situation. If the amp is replaced with a dedicated two-channel, how would access to the quadraphonic sound of those music Blu-rays, which seem to be proliferating (Chicago, Pink Floyd, Beatles, etc.), be accessed? Thank you for your consideration.
If your system is 2.1 or 2.0 it has no business incorporating an AV receiver...preriod(s). I fully support blended systems using an AV receiver for center and surrounds, with a good dedicated integrated amp in HT Bypass mode for the main speakers, with music-first sources connected directly to the IA, and HDMI-only devices to the AVR. But in your case you have no other speakers, so sell the AVR and spend $3K on an integrated. Options abound. Halo HINT, Black Ice F35, used Hegel, Naim, Rega...etc.
@icegeek, my impression of your query is that you want better audio fidelity for music and, comparatively speaking, video, TV and home theater type audio is less important to you. Do I have that right? If so, I'm inclined to agree with ghdprentice in that this is, indeed, a very tough question! A two grand budget is somewhat limiting if what you're after is a significantly appreciable improvement in sonic fidelity for two-channel music, compared to what you already have.
I've spent several hours of serious seat-time with the Focal Aria 936 in a two-channel system powered by a MAC MA5200, its price point Luxman competitor, a Rega P3 with Ortofon Blue and premium vinyl recordings. That was very, very nice! I, also, have an old 100-watt Yamaha receiver as a secondary system in the master bedroom for background music. So, I am very familiar with Yamaha "pure direct" sound. When I upgraded my TT for my primary two-channel music system, a Rega P6 with the Exact or Ortofon Bronze or Black was on my short list. You could save a few pennies by going with the Rega P6 or better and keeping your Ortofon Bronze, assuming it's still got good life left in it. However, I'm not certain how finicky Rega arms are with Ortofon carts. If you don't have a lot of experience setting-up carts, you might want to have that done by someone who has. Also, keep in mind that Rega is a proponent of low-mass design TT's. If you go Rega, make sure you have something rock-steady to place it on. There are many other commendable TT choices in the 2K to 2.5K price-point to consider, as well (e.g. Marantz TT-15S1; Mobile Fidelity; Music Hall; Technics; etc.). However, I'm not sure how much of a sonic improvement this would render, compared to what you already have. Only your ears can tell you that.
I'm not familiar with your phono stage but that is, of course, another option to consider. Here again, though, I'm not certain how much bang for your buck in sonic improvement this would render, compared to what you already have. Similarly, IMHO, spending 2K on a new quality integrated amplifier, with or without integrated phono stage, is not going to yield much in the way of significant sonic fidelity improvement(s), compared to what you already have.
A few other questions for you: do you have & use a record cleaning system (e.g. vacuum system; ultra-sonic; etc.)? You'd be surprised how much of a difference this can make. Also, using simple and relatively inexpensive accessories like a good quality record clamp, TT matt, stylus cleaner, etc. can make noticeable improvements. If you're not already using these types of accessories, I would suggest you start there and save some dough toward the future upgrade of a quality two-channel integrated amp (e.g. 5 to 6 grand). It's not all about the watts but, more importantly, about the quality of the power supply, harmonic distortion, signal-to-noise ratio, headroom, intermodulation distortion and all those other performance specs. Your Focal and your ears will appreciate that.
If the pre outs on the Yamaha avr are legit would using the pre outs for example Odyssey Audio Khartago stereo amp or mono amps or 3-channel Stratos HT-3 be compatible?
Looking at peachtree Nova 300. That amp looks like it kicks ass. 300 WPC and 0.005% THD? Thats a lot less noisy than the Emotiva XPA-2 I was looking at and only $500 more. What do you all think about that amp? Should I use its built in phono stage or continue w/ my phono-pre?
Fun question. My vote would be a two channel integrated amplifier. Something simple that does NOT have an integrated DAC or phonostage - just pre and amp
Right now, I don’t think you will be able to hear the difference if you put more $ into the phono rig, given the limitations of the Yamaha A/V receiver for 2-channel listening
System quality needs some balance across its components, and your phono rig seems well thought out, already - a solid setup
For $2k, you’ve got great integrated choices, new or used. Looking only at “pure” integrated amps (without DAC or phonostage) will help narrow things down quite a bit
Amp may seem less exciting now, but will make a big difference and be the foundation for a TT upgrade later
There has been a lot of good discussion here. From my perspective there are 2 bug upgrades you need to make; your analog rig and your amplification. Either one should produce a fairly large improvement. The amp is probably the less exciting thing to upgrade right now bit will pay huge dividends moving forward. For instance, if you upgrade your TT to something like a clearaudio concept (this would be my choice in that process range) you are going to get much improved sound, but you won't get all the table has to offer because your amplification is not designed for high end music reproduction. I agree that a dedicated 2 channel integrated is the right first move. I like the Rogue sphinx. It will play plenty loud. Later, you can upgrade the TT. And like russ said, be stupid on thr TT, spand more than seems reasonable, but don't do it until you have an amp that can reproduce it well.
I used to use a 90's Sony ES, HT 5.1 amp to run my DIY (morel drivers) speakers and sub. It was pre-HDMI and lacked other now commonly found features that i needed. I then started my first dedicated 2CH system with that Sony amp in Direct mode for stereo, and bought a Yamaha AX840 to backfill my HT setup. It looks to be about $100 less than yours in the same line. It totally destroyed the audio SQ of those speakers. It was apparent on the first track. As some above have also implied, I (personally) don't notice the SQ issue in HT that much but that's me.
In my current 2CH I also use the same cart and TT thru a Vincent Pho8 pre. Using a now newer, tube amp ($4000 msrp) along with a modded MHDT Orchid DAC for CDs, I feel the vinyl side holds its own very well compared to the well regarded DAC. In fact both sources sound pretty amazing. Not being that familiar with your speakers but knowing the brand's reputation it's my experience that your weak link is the power source. No, I can't fix the 2CH vs 5.1 issue at that budget but feel strongly your amp is not the 2CH amp your system is needing. There are a slew of much better 2CH amps, new and especially used, for $2k. Maybe work the speaker selector device angle harder and run 2 amps? For the sub, try using the 5.1 from the HT and the hi-power inputs from the 2CH if sub has both? Maybe others can help here as I've never "shared" a sub like that.
Having everything separate means having lots more connection points and the various wiring to connect all of it together so a good integrated would be the way to go. The old, worn out thought process said monoblocks, and all the associated stuff to go with them was the way to go but technology has come a long way and modern integrated amps sound every bit as good as separates.
As for WPC, chances are you never or rarely reach that 200 level and there are lots of integrateds that are rated at 120 or 150 wpc that will play as loud as you want (unless you're playing outdoors or in a concert hall). Peachtree and Parasound are two that come to mind.
Ok so how about this then. I like to occasionally listen to the system loud. I'm getting 200+ wpc through my yamaha. The integrated amps I see are not even close to that kind of power. Suggestions?
Surround processors are crammed with all sorts of functions. In home theater you have video distracting you from the audio. Audio only systems do that well. If you want good audio you need to get audio only stuff.
Take this into consideration, the very best audio amps are two boxes… one for left channel one for right. The very best preamps are two box solutions, one for the power supply and one for the preamp functions. The best preamps are a single or double box. Separating each function permits isolation of the circuits and power supply. cramming this stuff and many amps in a bag is not going to sound good. I have a home theater system worth around $50K… it is not remotely competitive in sound quality with my audio system.
It had to be said. If the OP sells his multi channel stuff, he'll have some money for a superior 2 channel rig. No need to wholesale the whole thing, he just needs a good amp now, then some careful speaker placement and he'll have a fine setup.
I’m sorry, buy honestly I would sell it all and start a fresh dedicated 2 channel system. Just my opinion. Ebay is a good place to dump it all. About the only decent thing I see is maybe the fronts...however, I have no idea what speakers those are, as I’ve not heard anything Focal except headphones. I’d save the 2 grand and sell off components and devise a plan and go from there. I think that will ultimately result in a better system for dedicated 2 channel listening. I would actually hang onto the 2m Bronze, it's a great cartridge.
Ok so can I run both a 2 channel integrated Amp AND my HT Amp to my speakers at the same time and just switch off somehow?
That is possible but somewhat impractical. IF you have banana plugs on your speaker cables, that would be pretty simple to switch out. A speaker switch is possible but it also can cause a loss of fidelity. The sub may be an issue. I can't say for sure. But what I will say is that many of us tried the 2 channel & HT all in one system. I even had a 3 channel amp/processor tied into the 2 channel stereo once. IMO it was one GIANT cluster **** with very little return. I now run the TV through my 2 channel. Sounds great, especially for concerts. And it works fine for HT as well. Many have had to decide this issue of which is most important, HT or music. But hey, I understand the frustration involved
....Who cares if it can do 13.2 I'm running it in 2.1 or 2.0. I was thinking going emotiva xpa 3 for a power Amp for my fronts...
Because a quality 2 channel rig for two grand sounds better than a mass market rig that has 13 amps with more than 6 times the components in it. Those components are going to be the cheapest ones available to keep the price down. Your loudspeakers would love a Rogue Sphinx V3. The Emotiva is the wrong choice for your loudspeakers, it will be dry and perhaps shrill.
I really don't see how my $2,000 Yamaha running in pure direct mode with 200wpc is affecting the sound quality.
The question then is this, Why do you want to spend $2k to upgrade a sound system if all sound is equal? Do you really think the priorities for movie dialog with a few explosions and music which covers 20-20Khz signal are the same? if you want HT then the Yammy is fine. But I've been down that route and it is not the path for good 2 channel. But its your $$ to do as you please
I really don't see how my $2,000 Yamaha running in pure direct mode with 200wpc is affecting the sound quality. Who cares if it can do 13.2 I'm running it in 2.1 or 2.0. I was thinking going emotiva xpa 3 for a power Amp for my fronts and then I'd be able to run a Dirac Live setup. Still feel like my TT and cart are the weakest links
How is the TT mounted, there is room to improve the presentation from it and not too much money will be required if a DIY approach is tried.
Trialling a Few Platter Mat Materials will usually have a cost attached if a few loaned ones are not able to be arranged. Exchanges of Mats a can also produce one that can have a real impact in uplifting the SQ.
A Phonostage can be considered, a shop demonstration and home trial is worth trying to arrange, I don't suspect this will cost much money to achieve.
I'm with @russ69on this. You have a mixed starter system now. The mix is the Yammy HT receiver in with 2 channel.. I like the Yammy's quality and sound And they make decent integrated also which is what you need . There are different priorities between the 2 channel and HT. BTW, A 2 channel HT is fine for me and many others who have used it. .If you are adventurous a tube integrated may sound better to you also. But expect a little maintenance IE tube changing when bad. But many will last 5-10 yrs so its not an extraordinary amount to maintain. Then after the amp, the turntable needs upgrade. Then the phono preamp. Cartridge is alright for the time,have fun
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