Stereophiles Recommended components offerings at $300,000 Plus! And weights of many hundreds of pounds? Is quality now by the pound? Audiphools exist- just like Saquatch.
But i need to hear the church acoustic out of my head with my headphone or the speakers filling the room out of my head if i use headphone...
I used acoustics to modify them and optimize them ...
No need to any knowledge to enjoy music...
But i wanted to have audiophile experience without breaking my low budget... i succeeded because i am retired and do it full time few years ... Anybody can if he invest time studying and experimenting with the right chosen gear for sure ...
i dont know any low cost headphone i could enjoy save the one i optimized...
We must pick the right gear to begin with, not necessarily the costlier one; the gear we can optimize and modify...
i am not interested in car mechanics at all but i was fascinated by acoustics not mere room acoustic all acoustics knowledge for sure ... ( my wife drive the car by the way 😊 )
@mahgisterI appreciate your response. To each there own, I can enjoy music or a car without knowing all the details of how they work.
I hear differences in systems and understand it’s my individual preference. I can enjoy a record without knowing all the details of how the cartridge, tonearm and phono stage work.
I am an avid car enthusiast and driver, I can’t do a break job. I can detail them and exploit their mechanical grip.
@mahgisterI appreciate your response. To each their own, I can enjoy music or a car without knowing all the details of how they work. I may not have the mental capacity or patience to understand the how.
I hear differences in systems and understand it’s my individual preference. I can enjoy a record without knowing all the details of how the cartridge, tonearm and phono stage work.
I am an avid car enthusiast and driver, I can’t do a break job. I can detail them and exploit their mechanical grip.
@mahgister knowledge on how something works is not the same as using/enjoying it.
A trivial common place fact distinction is useless here . Sorry... 😁
it takes me 6 months at full time to understand how work the AKG K340 headphone hybrid complex design and modify it to reach ectasy ...understanding matter sorry ...
Embeddings mechanical,electrical and acoustical controls devices are not gadgets we could buy only and in all case, we can and must make our own sometimes and they ask for basic understanding... ( i created my own shielding plate )
I modified my small speakers porthole because i understand Helmholtz resonators perhaps better than the Chinese designer who anyway had no choice because of cost selling them with no bundle of various tubes size, some 3 feet length behind the small speakers to improve them immensely as i did (50 hertz clear and no distortion with a 4 inches woofer ) ... 😊
I modified the not so well designed waveguide too ...
Max Verstappen is not an expert in engineering but he is a multiple time Formula 1 Champion.
What’s wrong with someone ’outsourcing’ the expertise in design and implementing a wonderful audio system?
Here you misread my posts i admired any designer of High end as such... I did not admired people who use price tags for definition of audiophile experience ...
It’s awesome you enjoy your system. Do you think they enjoy it any less because they don’t understand the technical details that create the music they enjoy?
To enjoy any system we can read the price tag and call it job done and sleep with the music...
my definition of enjoying imply basic acoustic knowledge and consciousness ... Why ? Because without it we cannot be conscious of the objective reason why we enjoy the S.Q. save for the price tag and others opinion about the gear...
I need to understand what is "timbre" , transients, listener envelopment, sound source width, crosstalk negative impact, reverberation time, absorption and reflective ratios and diffusion effects , location of tuned resonators, and ionization and schumann generators impact etc etc etc ...
I need to understand concretely with my ears the varying parameters i could control to increase my joy to reach full consciouness about the optimal experience with any design i can buy ...
Buying upgrades is not my definition of audiophile hobby...
Creativity+basic concrete knowledge of acoustics is ...
Now i listen music a new hobby of mine satisfied with no frustration at all in spite of the limitations of my system which work optimally at his highest level this was make possible by my past hobby in acoustics...I did not need to buy 100,000 bucks of gear to reach minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold ... Trust me the maximal threshold cost a lot more ...
@mahgister knowledge on how something works is not the same as using/enjoying it.
Max Verstappen is not an expert in engineering but he is a multiple time Formula 1 Champion.
What's wrong with someone 'outsourcing' the expertise in design and implementing a wonderful audio system?
It's awesome you enjoy your system. Do you think they enjoy it any less because they don't understand the technical details that create the music they enjoy?
They dream about 300,000 bucks turntable and amp with o.000000000000000 % distortion...😁
But they never spoke about the more important multiple ways acoustics parameters aspects of the system/room/ears are the FIRST and LAST factor that matter the most ...
Gear branded names and price tags matter because they think the "plane" must be idolized as a god making sound as some tribes who paid the price for it to come back in their "room" .... 😊
@tony1954There are many sources and types of distortion. Some forms of distortion are irritating to some people. For example, I can't stand the 'sizzle' that comes from some digital and most electrolytic caps in the signal path. Some other people don't seem to care. THD is only one form of distortion.
Other forms of distortion don't have much impact. For example, I don't mind a bit of 'wow' in my music, but it drives other people nuts.
Post 1974 911s were awful and slow due to US emissions controls. Mid to late 80s SC models were ok but certainly not very fast. The 964 finally recapitulated the great late 60s/early 70s cars.
I'm going to come to the rescue of a few of the ideologues here. Rule of thumb: if you can't find the engineering mistake, don't criticize it until you hear it.
@helomechI know several sets of fossil ears that are way more sensitive than juvenile examples. It may be the monitoring device that counts.
@grislybutterI drove a 355. Wonderful driver. You have to change the timing belts every 10,000 miles. That is an engine out service costing $15,000 at last count.
@tomic601Are you suggesting that older 911's are "soulless"? New ones are definitely headed in that direction but nobody I know would characterize and old 911 that way. They reek of soul. They are just a few steps away from a VW Bug which is the most soulful car ever made.
Gabor…. when you visit, we can walk around in the Condo parking garage it’s a veritable car show for just 15 units…. From 2 Ferari ( see what i did there @mijostyn ? ) Nobody confuses the several prancing horse with the multitude of “ souless German appliances “…. or… the Willys… ( guilty as charged on 3 counts )…
@noromancehas it right… i was extremely disappointed in the recent Tracking Angle write up of some abysmal TT w built in speakers…
Give me one audiophile with a $100,000 turntable over 1500 kids with Crosley suitcase players. Give me one Old World country mansion estate on 1000 acres over 4000 cheap family homes.
@grislybutterYou have to make it shiny to sell it. Cars are the same way. The Italians know that better than anyone. Everything is a matter of style. Appearances.
Ferrari has a history of making some really awful cars, but they have standing because of style like the Testarossa, one of the most functionally awful cars I have ever driven. The Berlinetta Boxer is another beautiful, awful car. The new ones are much better due to CAD. I could run circles around those cars with 911s of the same period.
@grislybutter, I know of plain looking units, but most units get the Goochi treatment first utilized by one of audios capital a--h-les Dan D'Agostino. Remember the gold screws! Dan is still pushing the limits. I would not use his electronics if they were the last on earth. I would rather sing to myself.
@tomic601Sapphire is spelled with two "P"s. The Sapphire was a brilliant. David Fletcher took Edgar Villchur's design and flipped it upside down creating the most stable turntable to date. That design has since been borrowed by SME, Avid, Basis and others. It was never bettered until recently when MinusK's negative stiffness design was adapted by Mark Dohmann for his Helix turntables. Sota in the meanwhile has not stood still. It brought vacuum clamping to consumer turntables, developed a CAD chassis of 1" thick aluminum, had what many consider to be the finest motor and motor controller adapted for their turntables, developed the perfect mat for a turntable and designed a new platter with a neodymium magnet thrust bearing. I like the Cosmos most because it violates Mark Levison's rules of Audio. It is not cool looking and it does not cost a fortune. I can live with that. The Sapphire can have all of these features except the aluminum chassis.
Why thank you @mahgister. For those who have not read the "Achtung!" Poster you might get a kick out of it. I have no idea who authored it, but I first saw it at an audio store in Akron, Ohio called Golden Gramophone now defunct.
@lewm: the AR TT was introduced in 1964 at a price of $78. I bought a nicely modded version from Vinyl Nirvana for $750. Taking into account the depreciation of the US dollar that is a reasonable price.
I was accused to bash high end because i claimed that a 300,000 turntable is useless for anyone in audio... At best it is an experimental very interesting device for sure or one that can be sold to our philantropist virus expert and expert in injection by syringe or mosquitoes you know who ...😊
Sorry I can't resist. If it looks hideous like so many high-end audio products, does it imply (hint/suggest/allude) that it sounds better?
I am half-joking, I know aesthetics is not the goal of many engineers, they just chase perfection in sound, do you associate from weird looks to quality sound?
@mijostynYou might selectively recall the concept of functional decomposition as a systems engineering process… IF you subject the mightly SOTA Saphire ( yes i owned a few, sold many ), you will ( perhaps ) understand the excess of parts having no significant functionality….
@lewm…. i shall paraphrase and modify … grousing about luxury goods is the hobgoblin of small minds…. because, even the lowly AR is such as @8th-noteso deftly points out….
Since an order of magnitude is 10, I don't think there were any turntables in commercial existence for more than maybe one order of magnitude greater cost than the original ARXA (which would have been $670); was there a $6700 tt back then? Anyway, this thread is BORRRRRINGGGGG!!! Should be deleted for snooze factor, not to mention pusillanimity (if that is a word for "small-mindedness").
Mark Levinson's rules of audio. If it looks cool is sounds better. If it costs a fortune it sounds way better. The myth of the unobtainable.
Lay instinct aside, the function of a turntable is insanely simple and not hard at all to manufacture for a reasonable price. Those of us with children want to leave them with some security. Pissing money away on flash and exclusivity is a fools game. Worry about one thing and one thing only, function. That is what Edgar Villchur was doing when he designed the AR XA. A turntable that sold for $67.00 that stomped turntables costing several orders of magnitude more. The Modern day version is the Thorens TD1600.
Oliver Sacks taught us a lot because neurological problems may be very specific in individual case and impossible to describe if not by a mini novel describing the patient life ... I admire him and his books are very precious to me...
the episode you alluded to was put in movie which i will remember with his book forever...
When I was in medical school, we did our neurology at Montefiore Hospital in the Bronx, where I think Oliver Sachs was on staff and where work was done using dopamine to treat “frozen” Parkinson’s Disease patients, who were at that time thought to have a form of chronic encephalitis associated with the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic.
While I generally understand the ultra-high-end market, I can't help but roll my eyes at six-figure turntables that don't even spin at 78 RPM and have the exact same measurements as the $10k Technics SP-10R, $20k if you count the plinth and equivalent tonearm.
none of my aspergers friends or autists were Tourette ..
By the way we all of us must read astonishing description of Tourette in Oliver Sacks masterpiece : "the man who mistook his wife for a hat "...
One of the great life changing book we can read ...All his others books are on par almost...
Try to read it my friend if you dont know it already ....
The chapter on the Reagan Election at the TV commented by two different groups of people with heavy neurological problem but reverse problem for each group is amazing,...
One of the best book i ever read and i read a lot ... That was my job...
I will add Alexander Luria book about Vienamin a Russian dude with a memory WITHOUT limits. Luria i read it when i was 20 years old. He was the master of Sacks...
The book of Luria surpass any S.F novel and his an accurate description day to day of the life of someone who CANNOT forget anything at all and without any limit about what is memorized. Luria tested him for many decades and study him as a case in neurology... Sacks had read him young and inspired embarked in his own amazing journey in clinical neurology case description ...
Selling a High Item Turnover of Million items for $1M, at 20% Mark Up gives a return of $200K, as the pre overhead profit.
Selling a low turnover item at a pre sale cost of $200K for $1M.
Both the above sales do occur, I'm sure for those that can afford the initial outlay, the latter is the most attractive sale to achieve.
I once had a very good communication with a friend who sold Architectural Items.
The Service offered was most commonly a word of mouth recommendation.
There was a period when Ornate carved Marble Fire Surrounds were on offer, these were replica's of a Pattern used by a famous Stone Carver from a few hundred years past.
Quite similar as a product to the Cast Iron Items that were commonly seen, which were all cast to the Patterns of the most prominent Victorian Foundries.
I was informed of the door to door price for each surround, of which it was quite a cost to be produced and imported. I inquired the ballpark resale price, to which I was informed the Buyer who arrives to view in a Helicopter will be paying the most.
The resale price was genuinely what was seen to be fitting as the charge to the Customer.
I know one went to a Large Estate House being renovated, for over a £100K a surround and there was more than one purchase made.
The psychology is that the Customer / Vendor in purchases with a small mark up and cost price will most likely never meet, and the purchase is one that can be determined as being very very fair.
The higher the price ticket usually means the Customer / Vendor will meet, and the Vendor is able to decide just how unfair the sale is going to be for the Customer.
I used to get into this "rich people" generalization arguments but it's a waste of time. The cool thing is we can ALL enjoy music - quality and quantity-wise so much better these days, regardless of our budget. It's affordable and available in so many ways!
I admire the beauty and tech of those amazing tables but I like the simplicity of my modest and honestly plain Jane Sota Escape. I liked the price too, it's a table many can afford....
thank ——— that the appreciation of the beauty and emotional connection of much music does NOT seem to require a “ basic understanding “….. of…. anything….
My comment was on wealth bashing. I have had the privilege of working with a lot of folks that could afford a $300K turn table if they wanted one. Obviously, most do not. But as a group, these are incredibly intelligent and hard working people who’s commitment to their jobs completely dominates their lives. When I talk about intelligent, I am not kidding…
I feel the same freedom with a relatively modest income and total control on my work job... ( no boss) Then income had nothing to do with intelligence... one of the most intelligent people i encountered were poor and asperger erudite folks with NO AMBITION in society only in understanding ...
People must not be bashed anyway wealthy or not ...😊
Then i am with you on this...
But we are on an audiophile forum i oppose any opinion linking S.Q. to gear price linear scale and promoting gear upgrade race... Acoustics and common sense for all is my motto...Budget dont matter ...knowledge acquisition matter ...
Hense my comment that from their perspective (if they chose to be vindictive for the criticism ) everyone would look ignorant and in poverty.
And i dont think that rich people bash less fortunate people in money stash as "ignorant" because they are "poor" and cannot afford this turntable ... Most effective gadget are only that more effective gadget ...
I am not ignorant about the way to give to myself a good experience with any system... Mine is low cost but i will do the same with my basic knowledge with any more effective system by design at any price... 😊 Because i learned how to do it... Upgrading without knowing the basic is real ignorance in most cases save for an evident synergy incompatibility ...
Knowledge had no relation with money and even with gear branded name experience...but for sure a dude able to own a top dedicated acoustic room as mike lavigne will surpass any experience of mine even if i had the same gear in my living room ... Thats my point ...
Acoustics rules not money ...
But being ghprentice you know already all that... I repeat it for the sake of others ...
My comment was on wealth bashing. I have had the privilege of working with a lot of folks that could afford a $300K turn table if they wanted one. Obviously, most do not. But as a group, these are incredibly intelligent and hard working people who’s commitment to their jobs completely dominates their lives. When I talk about intelligent, I am not kidding… their incredible scope of knowledge, ability for abstract thought, and insite into the world makes your average Joe seem like a different species. Most are humble, job focused, and incredibly hard working, which is what makes them so valuable.
Many of these are C level executives, founders, engineers, although I have known a lot of professors as well… the majority of, before someone gets off on this one, honest individuals with outstanding ethics and morality who basically work 80 hours a week and create thousands of jobs and enormous wealth for their companies and there employees.
The idea that these folks are fools or not worthy of their money is simply absurd. Notice the wealth created in the US? There are those that are unethical and greedy and unworthy. But for that couple percent it is inappropriate to label the 98% that way.
Hense my comment that from their perspective (if they chose to be vindictive for the criticism ) everyone would look ignorant and in poverty.
@mahgister+1 for your post at 9:37 AM! More knowledge and less foolishness should be the goal when deciding what to buy! Marketing is the inverse of this!
I'm probably not alone in thinking that a cheaper vinyl rig carefully set up by someone who knows what he is doing is likely to sound far better than the most expensive one to be found set up by someone who does not. But if that dreadfully expensive TT is set up by someone who does know all the tricks, I'll take comfort in remembering it will only sound a small amount better than the first case.
The Subsistence Farmer used as an example will have the identical desire to be amused/entertained, the same Farmer may even go to the extent of putting the Families Security at stake in their persistence of being entertained by a participation that comes with a cost, that will diminish the coffers or even be the cause of dept.
Usually the individual has a developing obsession and many are skewed in their balanced approach, the mind is now way beyond a place where the obsession > compulsion was once able to be controlled.
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