@dogberry Good one! My room has a nice stereo in it (and mosquito netting) so I’m headed there now! (And I'm keeping the post short because I don't have logorrhea.)
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Hey! Patronizing corrector where in any thread in the last year did i harass you with critics ? go and gives us an exemple where i criticize you with no arguments and just as you do with me for a year patronizing about my posts incorrection ? You did it toward me at repetition ? I treated you with apology , congratulations and when i discussed with you i had my logical arguments not a harassing tactic... How do we call someone stiring the pot others begun to stir for "politics reason" asking hypocritally for a filter option when it is simple to ignore his posts ? We call him a hypocrit and a hurted child .... Read Carlo Cipolla and say to me if the definition fit your tactic or me... If it fit me i will quit audiogon forever ...Try it
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The context for me in these lower price, value vs. affordable and on up to the extreme levels of manufacturing leading to ownership....
It is not the plethora of biases that get laid on the owners by the other camp...its the personal bias of where they come from that is ignored by the very ones accussing the other of that same thing... Justifying your own situation by shooting at the other side.. Its circular stupidity where relevance and context never acknowledge each other. The better the best is, the more that better can trickle downhill where costs can meet with each individuals needs and ability to secure it. Like music, there are many choices to fit everyone. Cheers
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@grislybutter Like mosquito netting. I like it. Also, helpful for screening out ad hominem attacks. |
@lewm +3 Mike |
As for very expensive Audio Equipment, very few get to have demo's of it usage in an environment ideal to enable the end sound to be heard at its best. To encounter a large arrangement of High Expense Audio Equipment, the venue to do this will most likely be a Trade/Commercial Show. Such an environment will only allow the surface to be scratched of what can be the end produced sonic. My developed attitude, is to go with a very open mind, give all demo;s a very similar time scale and try and listen to tracks that have a familiarity to oneself before becoming too critical of what is being demo'd. The outcome usually is, there are systems heard, where certain devices are easily identifiable for being unattractive and unwanted in the home system. The Flip side, is that devices will be discovered that are creating a stimulus and attraction, the interesting thing usually is the difference in pricing for similar levels of stimulus produced and attraction can be separated by $100K+ as the purchase price. Uber expense is not absolute to have a very enjoyable Audio Experience. |
You must read my posts before answering to it ...😊 But you are right also i could have been more clear ... 😊
Even if we may think differently i respect you ... This is my post beginnings which is an answer to hilde45 whose post i quote at the end ..I appreciated your sincerity ... I commented about you sincerity expressing your opinion about me in the beginning ...But i was evidently speaking to hilde45... Hilde45 is an hypocrit which as i said, you are not... this is what i said :
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Is an honest person who speak his mind about me and he will not harass me regularly as you did since you came here reading my posts and repeating the same arrogant patronizing spit for one year now ... Even after you said you will not begin again in private but hate is such 😁 ... You repeated and repeated your critic on my posts NEVER answered my arguments on anything but harassed me by patronizing about my style and syntax ... As you said you are a corrector known around the world ..😁 Indeed and i believe you ... You are so mean you trail now a person speaking his mind about me just to spit instead of attacking any arguments in my posts .. Small mind unwilling or unable to throw arguments.. I am not like you i can even approve some of your posts as i just did one week ago ... Unlike you i entertain no grudge or hate here againast anyone BUT I ANSWER to one who attack me on the spot ... You are a small man ...
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@hilde45 some forum engines have a filter option, where you can (un)select users never to see their comments. I would sure use it. |
Nope, it’s not just you. We can all smell the landfill. Boy, it stinks, and no one can get a post in without it responding. Pestilent. I suggest we take the John Houseman approach in Paper Chase. |
Check all my ouput posts and what you call "noise" could be a meaningful signals for another one ...If not why did i receive friendship by mail ? They are "nuts" as i am for sure,😁 but this does not invalidate my point ...Signal and noise are relative to the receiver filters brain ... You are free to pass over my posts instead on introducing new "noise" which is a signal to anyone else save to write your own complaint because i am not on the political side it seems you yourself said to me few posts ago, which side for you is the right one ...😊 I participated positively on many other threads you dont seems dare to go : as music experience , jazz, piano threads, classical threads, and many others which are not centered on indefinite gear impressions as solutions one after the other or c entered about a specific help question.. ... Read these threads about music and sounds sum what i spoke about there and compared to your own input and say to me that all my posts compared to yours are mostly noise and yours signals ...I will give you a right : i spoke a lot ...Then dont read me it will be more easy than to analyse what i spoke about and you dont like because of my "political" opinion as you interpreted them ...😊 Come back after reading all my posts since january and describe your reading experience to me and listenings experience too because i proposed a tons of links about articles and books about music and sound and many music album+ philosophical reflection about sounds meanings and perceptions.. Now if you come here to read marketing piece of specific gear and users thousands dacs recommendation pass over my posts ... You are right i dont sell gear... I am noise because i sell creativity and music and acoustics interests ...😊 |
I see the purpose of posting here mainly for three reasons:
repeating the same argument a 1000 times, mostly off-topic, with no relevance to the question or topic accomplishes nothing for me. But that's just me. Nothing should prevent you from filling these threads with noise. |
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I agree with you here ... But my fun was way more learning and experimenting than upgrading the gear... We must stick with a system when we had reach synergy with the various pieces... The fun for me begun there ...With experiments in the various installation aspects (mechanical electrical and acoustical ) If we are in constant upgrade race we had no time to install rightfully a chosen system...It takes me a few years of experiments to do so... |
I cannot but only agree to a common place fact ...😊
What about all the thread about costlier and way costlier upgrades ? This is why i said marketting and ignorance replace basic knowledge never mind the system price ... As you i read what i want but also as i see ... |
Why do you think i mentionned psychoacoustics and HRTF ?
I mentionned it because some audiophile hypnotized by gear price tag do not even invest in a good dedicated room and more than that put more value in a very costlier dac upgrade than about inner ears measures and HRTF measures for a real high end system at relatively low cost...😁 Ignorance dominate audio world and price tags pilot the wave ...😂
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@tomic601 Cool! I am pretty sure there is a lot that would wow me, my knowledge is so limited. I am a newborn baby in a candy story when I see/hear expensive hifi gear. |
@grislybutter …When i get back, we will conduct a listening experiment where YOU can evaluate the hotrod P3 w RB330 vs The Bardo / Triplaner using same cartridge… i think at retail its about 12;1….. fun… and informed…. Anything else is just fury before sound |
Lord, i saw a most delicious 356 in a metallic silver mist green today…. near the coast… Encinitas… just where it belongs…. Tan interior. Some people here are like a dog on the same tired old bone…. No matter the context… or the problem…they bring the same VERY tired 3 headed hammer to every…nail… Lew has a pair of one of the most astonishing stereo speakers from an unconventional acoustical genius… Bev as he was known… Magister you might actually learn something new…. and BTW HRTF is…unique to each individual…just like every seat in a good hall…. imagine the factorial… at work…. |
@lewm +1 yep. you got it. You know -- about the 911's. Ahem. |
@lewm +1 |
First : you put in my mouth a completely ridiculous claim, I never said that a low cost system as mine at 1000 bucks can beat a better designed and costlier system when this costlier system/room is UNDER CONTROL in the mechanical,electrical and acoustical working dimensions... I said that a balance between all acoustics factors (i dont speak about mere room acoustic here ) can be optimised and must be optimised to reach a S.Q. level much better according to the system design range of possibilities for sure , modulo the controls over electrical,mechanical and acoustical working dimensions.
By the way the use of Hemlhotz resonators devices and principle are not a cheap tweaks. I dont buy tweaks. i created mine.
Second: Knowing why, how and with what piece of gear to upgrade imply no skill at all about money but imply learned concepts of acoustics with an (S) which most confuse with room acoustic parameters.
There is a subjective core to acoustics, but the objective appreciation and judgment of what is a good system/room is grounded in very precise concepts and parameters including our own ears measurement and HTRF ... Then .... A good system/room is a subjective impression but not so much as you think ...
It is true though that all my posts for 8 years now claimed that it is possible with basic knowledge to create a good system/room experience at relatively low cost between 1000 and 20,000 bucks , passed over a minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold if we learn how to do it... I battle against upgrading race consumerism of people who are lazy and think S.Q. came from buying and only from buying and mostly from buying gear... it is FALSE... it is worst than false it is an half truth that misguide most people ... Acoustics concepts rule audio ...Not price tags ... And dont reduce acoustics to room acoustic with a few wall panels here ... Crosstalk is an acoustics concept... Reverberation time is an acoustics concepts... Timbre is an acoustics complex concepts ... etc |
Mahgister, Perhaps I misunderstand you but your agenda seems to be that one can make cheap gear sound as good as or better than very expensive gear, if one is possessed of a certain wisdom regarding room acoustics and other more superficial tweaks. I think one needs to have both kinds of skill, the skill to spend money (what exactly is worth the expenditure and what is not) and the skill to modify the room and judiciously apply a few tweaks (perhaps) to maximize the listening experience, which in the end is always going to be judged subjectively. But you also cannot turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. |
There is for sure a non linear correlation between price tags (which are not cost) and design quality.. Not linear or as you said "not all the time". But there is no correlation save a very loose one between acoustic perception of the system/room S.Q. and the price tags of the gear for many reasons linked to acoustics and psychoacoustics among others... The most costly piece of gear is the room and it is the forgotten piece when audiophile spoke about S.Q. in their non dedicated room (living room ) . Or in a room with only a few panels... 😊 |
At least you admit that you "don't know". That's a good place to start, rather than to think that if it's cheaper, it must be as good or better. as some do. There's a great line from the movie "A Thousand Clowns", which came out in the early 60s and is one of my favorites. Martin Balsam plays financially successful older brother to Jason Robards who plays a sort of devil-may-care beatnik type who is financially careless at best. (There were Beatniks in the 50s and early 60s.) The two brothers are having an argument about life philosophies, and Martin Balsam says to Jason Robards, with irony, "I get it. If I'm so smart, why aren't I poor?" The take home lesson for audiophiles being sometimes there is a correlation between cost and quality, but not all the time. |
On the subject, I don't know how a 10K (20, 50, 100, etc.) turntable can be better than a 2K turntable. Needle, yes, I can see the needle making a big difference. But arm, platter, plinth, etc. just all do a very simple job. This doesn't mean that I think that people who spend 10s of thousands on a turntable are snobs or make bad decisions. All it means I don't know. Maybe some day I will... |
I was shocked by prices and weights - but now I'm accepting that probably many of these turntables are bought for beauty and pride. I'd like to retract my "audiophools" adjective. I'm sure, as long as the mechanical parts are working, these tables can reproduce music at a highly satisfying level. As I heat these days "my bad" :) However, having heard a shootout at Mike Lavigne's house (via youtube) to my ears the Wadax trounced the spinner. It's about time :) |
Well, the only time that my wife ever experienced a physically attached moment to an audio system was when she heard the Von Schwiekert Ultra 11 speaker plus subs in a huge hotel conference room with a $1 million system playing my LPs and a CD. That turntable was the Kronos $50K setup (not the newest. multi-component one) with it’s own arm and a $15K cartridge. I’ve heard the Ultra 9, VR 100 or 110 and my best friends’ VR35 Export (bimonthly for years). I purchased the renovated 2018 VR9 SE Mk2 in January and now have about 50% of that Ultra 11 experience. I have a superior listening room though so there’s that. I am waiting for my Lampizator Poseidon to go with a possible Westminster Labs REI amp but don't intend to change my TT/analog front end soon. I may end up with 80-90% of that fantastic sounding system for 15% of the cost of the $1+ million system (well there is my room cost of $150K though). |
the "diminishing returns" zone , because it is more a zone than a point is not a theory but a problem... The point is a zone oscillating between two factors: a subjective psychoacoustics factors of evaluation and an objective refinement design factor of evaluation ... it is clear if we understand the factors at play that this zone of evaluation exist .... Then a 300,000 dollars turntable is an interesting design experiment but in no way an interesting piece of gear to own.... the reason is not only the zone problem of evaluation between money invested and acoustic experience real or virtual returns, but the reason is that a multimillions system is not a MODEL for audiophile...Nor the solution in general "per se" to our S.Q. problems and experience... I dont bash high end gear saying this evident fact...😊 For almost every audiophiles the diminishing returns problem exist ... Not for Bill gates who may call it a theory unfounded for him....Bill gates does not need to learn basic acoustics with homemade devices as i did he call the best acoustician in the world . He does not even need to study medecine he buy the WHO problem solved. 😊 I dont live on the same planet ... A 300,000 turntable is a technological feat asking for an acoustic room of many million dollars and for an amplifier and speakers of stratosopheric price... It is an experiment in acoustic design not the model we can imitate ... And as i said acoustics rule audiophile experience not gear price tags.... This does not means that gear price tags had no real acoustic potential added value nor any improving quality meaning...For sure they are.... At the end , an audiophile who study basic acoustic in my opinion is less ignorant than one who bought 45 amplifiers but never experiment with acoustics ( it is not only room acoustic) ... Gear choices and price matter for synergy and improvement but it is for nothing if we dont know how to install and embed a system in his mechanical,electrical and acoustical basic working dimensions... The rules of acoustics dont change with the gear price tag... Is it not common sense ? 😁 |
Wow. What a cluster of a thread. Firstly, no one called anyone here "poor and ignorant". The poster merely drew a parallel between two imaginary people to make the point that perspective alters personal truth. And the number of people who dismiss things they can't afford is astounding. And no, a $5000 TT does not get into the 95th percentile of a $300,000 TT, if both are designed and built properly. The "diminishing returns" theory is common, but false in my experience. How do you calculate the "10x better" of a properly set up $100,000 system compared to a $10,000 system? I have heard some very pricey stereo systems, properly set up, that sounded far and away "better" than what can be assembled for appreciably less. Were they 10x better? 5x? 50X? Lacking a way to quantify the difference leaves comparisons meaningless. What that difference is "worth" is even more subjective than the measure of improvement. If I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to drop $1m on a system. There would likely be a Ferrari on the shopping list, too. Would I then be a fool? And would I care about the opinions of a minority of random internet sages who extol the virtues of having less money? Nahhh, I wouldn't. Enjoy what you have and enjoy pride of ownership and the result of your efforts. Denigrating others for the same would seem to be the foolish part, but that's just me. |
In 2006, I had already owned a highly modified SME IV ($1100 in 1989) and wanted to upgrade from my VPI 19-4 (bought in 1982/all upgrades after). So, I purchased a VPI TNT (upgraded platter). It REQUIRED a Townshend Sesimic SInk due to terrible vibration problems. I've gone through about a dozen cartridges in 35 years. Three friends and I own Dynavectors on very different TTs. I went with a $1100 20X2L in a high end system (now VS VR9 SE Mk2, Poseidon Pre/DAC, etc). It isn't just the TT and arm, it's matching it with the cartridge, then the phono stage (MM or MC). I have fantastic analog sound despite it not being SOTA. With 28,500 LPs (7,000 78s now played on the 19-4), I need a cartridge that plays most if not all of my LPs quietly (so many purchased used) and beautifully. Sure, my SOTA TT would be a full blown Kronos or Ars Machincae (or Conti last Basis). I don't have to have them to greatly enjoy records. Start at high quality, used TTs that have flooded the market. I like the SME arm because it is less sensitive to VTA after setup, durable and usable in a wide range of cartridges. The simple VPI like Scouts are a great table with their own arm. For $3K, this including my cartridge, high output is wonderful sounding.
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Just do what many people do and research gear in your particular budget, get a TT with good performance/reviews if audition is not practical, buy the best cartridge you can. Also research proper set up if not familiar with that. Use it till you know it well, then decide to keep or trade up. If a phono amp needs to be part of your system, used is the way to go imo. |
These discussions always amuse me. Funny how some people are turned off by a more expensive piece of equipment than they can afford or want to spend and yet they have spend what others think as retarded sums on things others would spend money on. Most of it is based on personal choices how you spend your money. If a person spends more than the quoted 69 dollars for a turntable so what? Another might buy a package of cigarettes for 20 dollars or a 12 pack of beer for 35 dollars other people might find that spending silly. (Canadian prices on the smokes and beer). What purpose does money spent on a holiday have? So someone wants to sit around in the sun a do nothing so others can serve them and that makes them feel wealthy instead of working to be that way? The conclusion that wealthy people are lazy and stupid is the opinion of those that truly are those things. Many people post on here to brag and feel good about themselves and if there system was truly as good as they caim why don't the listen to it more offen instead on being keyboard warriors? Many people get offended by the components others have because they have chosen audio as there hobby and yet that is not there hobby there hobby is a rooster swinging competition! They take great offense when someone else has a longer rooster. |
@tomic601 I didn't know what the 993 was and looked it up. Best looking generation. Then it went downhill and the design became hideous for a decade. It now looks decent again. But I never thought Porsche was about good looks as much as looking clean and tight. |
I have a Regal RP 6 fitted with a stock Denon DL103 I have a Rega P10 fitted with an Aphelion 2. Playing both through an Aesthetic Rhea phon stage. I enjoy the TT with the Denon DL103. Not judging the sound but it just is more enjoyable to listen to. The P 10 rig is 6 times the price of the RP 6. Just saying
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