is it true or not true in (your experiences) that the better your audio components are, the less they respond to various tweaks?Not true. Just as a race car responds more to tweaks, so does a high resolving system. Part of the problem in tweaking a lesser system is that it doesn’t respond. Thus my skepticism in Power cords 15-20 yrs ago or so. Tried them. Nothing there. 10 yrs ago, aha. They did work along with many other tweaks I dismissed i.e. Oyaide R1 outlet. Then too, I had developed more listening skills which is essential.
True or False?
Many high-end manufactures deny the benefits of tweaking their components with upgraded power cables, fuses, etc. We all can agree that even the best speakers respond to room placement but is it true or not true in (your experiences) that the better your audio components are, the less they respond to various tweaks?
70 responses Add your response
False, the more resolving and balanced the system is the more sensitive to tweaks whatever that would include, cabling, room treatment, fuses, power distributors, ac receptacles, vibration control. As for manufacturers, they are not denying anything for a simple reason that all use better cabling and better means of support to evaluate or demo. |
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We all can agree that even the best speakers respond to room placement but is it true or not true in (your experiences) that the better your audio components are, the less they respond to various tweaks? I would hope that we all can agree that ALL speakers respond to room placement. This is after all physics. You would at this point have to find another universe for this not to be the case. These smoking room hypothetical word games are kind of blasé so let me just say no, it is not true that the better gear does not respond as well to tweaks. Not at all. No way. Game over. |
@mapman The better they are the less tweaks needed to make them sound good. See how that works?There is a certain amount of truth there. Yes, the better equipment does sound better. That's why we use the word "better" to describe them. But the question posed was about the better equip responding better, not "needed" as much as we think of our systems, they are not a need. I have found joy in listening to music on the most basic of machines. Do I "need" the better equipment? No. But I prefer it. If you prefer not to tweak, that’s fine with me. It’s your system to do as you please with. |
There is a cost benefit analysis that goes on for components such as power cords. does the power cord handle the current and voltage (load) requirements with room to spare? yes or no? Does the equipment sound great with the manufacturers supplied power cord or fuse (for that matter)? What prompted me to buy the unit in the first place? The manufacturer has to complete the piece with the parts used, listen to it to determine if it meets their criteria and market it. Adding much more expensive power cords and fuses (don't get me started on this one), higher end caps, resistors, etc. would make the price of the piece unobtainable for many. Also, the availability of the parts. Some "higher end" resistors and caps are from small suppliers that may go away tomorrow. If you are producing units that are to be around for awhile, you want consistency in sound and construction standards. So, no, I would not be trying to find the small producer, latest and greatest caps and resistors, If i'm fairly certain that they may not be available later on. Same for power cords. If after listening to my supplied cord with the equipment, I listen to a higher end much more expensive cord and I hear a difference (for the better) but it isn't such that it justifies the enormous expense that would added to the equipment, then I wouldn't go with the more expensive power cord to be supplied. Also, a lot depends on what you call tweaks. Room corrections are not tweaks in my view. That is room correction. Not a tweak to me. I believe that most of us has a "I'm there" moment with their system. If I'm there and the equipment and music performs to the point where I feel "I'm there", then I don't feel the need to do anything to the system. no power cord upgrades, no cable upgrades, fuses, stands, etc. Now when my "trusted" dealers (Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica and Tom Vu of Triangle Art) convinces me to take home a new unit to listen to, just to see if there is a marked difference, and I fall for that, take it home and do A/B comparisons and feel the need to upgrade again, well that is a different matter all together. Who knew that a stupid usb cable from the music server to my DAC makes that much of a difference? enjoy |
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mijostyn
Tweaks are for idol worshipers.Yep. Tell that to the race car drivers who modify a sports car with a catch can, Cold air intake, or shocks and suspension or Tires. And I haven't even mentioned supercharger, or Turbo or smaller pully. Did you spend the night at Holiday Inn? I hear a lotta experts come from there. Maybe you should quit representing your views as the final authority especially on things that I KNOW you are dead wrong. I let it go the 1st time I saw it. But calling those who believe in tweaks "idol worshippers" is out of line. If you don't believe in tweaks, then fine. Don't do any. No problem. But quit acting like a know it all will ya. |
This question absolutely cannot be discovered by simple observation. One has to ask inane questions on a forum in order to arrive at a practicable solution. What next? Whether paint color influences high end electronics more than low end electronics? The answer should be obvious to any thinking person. But, in this place many don’t think. Worse, they don’t bother to test whether what they think is true. For that reason, obviously, answers will vary with no consensus to this question without merit. For those prone to follow waste of life tweaks, read my Audiophile Law articles on Burn In at Dagogo.com |
In my experience different pieces of gear react to different thing.. I found the better the power supply, no mater what they are suppling react LESS to high dollar power cables. If there is a huge gain in performance because of a PC change, I'd look more at the power supply other than the cable. I wholeheartedly believe that because I've proved to myself.. An old Mcintosh MC275 doesn't know a piece of lamp cable from a Krell PC. WHY? Look at the power supply.. Their BRAND new stuff ALL has room for either Mac or aftermarket PC. WHY... thing are a changing even MAC has much better cabling NOW.. Sure took long enough.. I could see a Mac fuse.. I wonder what they would price one at.. Macs aftermarket cabling is pretty reasonable. But even I have to look at what we're getting when we buy a Mac NOW.. I'm looking for my LAST preamp/power supply C100/1000/2000 series.. I think ALL tweaks, and even cables are a back burner issue. Plug it all in, clean up the mess and Prepare the room FIRST. Speaker placement in a treated room goes a long ways to ELIMINATE future tweaks (which are patches in disguise). A real tweak is something like a real good contact enhancer... It works no matter who you are or what it's used on. 5 people will hear a difference in 5 different systems.. BUT someone that's using cabling to modify the way something sounds... NO! I want it to reveal what's there, not HIDE, CHANGE, or exaggerate it.. REVEAL, UNMASK, SHOW ME, the beef!!!! Regards |
I was real big into cycling before my accident brought me to a Audio. Cycling is the same way . A guy spends thousands of dollars to save 100 g of weight on a bike. Does it make them any faster? You could do the math and say yes. Is it in his head?mostly. I think the same rules apply to audio. Did the new cables look better? Yes. do they sound better or is it in the guys head? It’s mostly in the guys head. It’s probably the same way with guys who work on cars, motorcycles and any other hobby you can think of. If it’s a hobby and people love it they will find a way to accessorize it. That’s what keeps some of these marginal products in business. |
The first thing to understand is that different is not always better and often time is required to really determine the worth of a change. Another important point is that "always" or "never" coming out of an enthusiast's mouth pretty much excludes their responses from serious consideration. See djones above. If people comment on products that they havent heard immediately dismiss their posts. |
Tweaks are for idol worshipers. If it works, it is not a tweak but rather an essential accessory.I agree for once with you... I call them "embeddings controls"... The more important embedding control is the acoustical one...So impactful that if rightfully implemented almost any upgrade is no more so "sexy" ... The ratio S.Q./price is the only way to keep money and not throwing it to the hype wind.... For those of us like me less fortunate and more creative.... I never bought any "tweaks".... i prefer to create my own "embeddings controls" at NO cost or almost.... Not only it work but it make my maxim truer with time passing: embed it all dont upgrade before.... |
Audiophiles have infinite hearing, allowing them to hear down to ever lowering "noise floors" that no manufacturer’s equipment can measure.Incredible insulting and stupid "preaching" post about all "audiophiles" indiscriminately in a polemical narrow mind way... Do you realize at which point you go astray? And you pretend to rationality in addition.... Funny..... 😊 |
Room corrections are not tweaks in my view. That is room correction. Not a tweak to me.Vibrations controls is possible at low cost, it is not a "tweak", it is an embedding control, not a secondary addition, a fundamental necessity... Decreasing the electrical noise floor is possible at low cost also... It is not a "tweak" it is a fundamental necessity... Room passive material treatment and ACTIVE mechanical control is not a "tweak" but a prime absolute necessity to hear our system at his optimal working peak... "Tweaks" are most of the times pejorative qualification for the "supertitious" people who believe that their costly system can work optimally without any "embeddings controls" like in the publicity they read before buying them ... They bought it, plug it and boast about it .... And before buying costly "tweaks" try to replicate them yourself at no cost.... Often it is possible...It is way more rewarding than buying....And more fun.... 😊 |
FALSE, the cost doesn't matter. Tweaks are useless in an inexpensive, moderate or expensive system.Are you born with innate audio knowledge? Vibrations? High electrical Noise floor? Acoustic? That did not ring a bell in your cranium at all? Stop calling that pejoratively "tweaks" and think about common sense solution .... They could cost nothing... |
BUT someone that’s using cabling to modify the way something sounds... NO!Very right.... Not because cables are all alike but because they cannot beat control of vibration neither compete with the decreasing of the electrical noise floor, and beat acoustic passive treatment and compare to active acoustic control... CAbles change are SMALL compared to all that... I dont understand fixation with cables, those who negate that they are different which is evident and audible and those who pay a big amount of money vouching that they transform all their system... The 2 groups war between each other blind to the more important way to improve their system.... Incredible!.... Our friend mechanician is right, the power supply and the electrical grid of the house are way more impactful.... |
If you say so. That is not the case whatsoever. But if that is what you got out of it, that is what you got out of it. It is demonstrably the wrong conclusion. Read the comments on my system page. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 There’s one where the cable elevators were removed. Actually I think there are two. In both cases the people clearly heard the improvement. Not change, improvement. What it takes a little more effort to understand, this was the same test but in two different systems. The Tekton Moabs in there now are WAY better than the Talon Khorus. Ditto the speaker cables. Heck every single little thing improved between those two visits. But the improvement heard by this one tweak, that did not change. Totally blows your conclusion out of the water. Also if you read the Townshend Podium review you will find the same huge improvement I got with my Tekton Moab speakers as another one got with much more expensive Wilson, I forget the model but way more expensive. Multiples. Most would say better. So another one blown out. I could go on and on. Suffice to say it is trivially easy to take even the most expensive SOTA system and make it sound a whole lot better- UNLESS it has already been systematically and thoroughly tweaked. To put it another way, you don't tweak, you are leaving mass sound quality on the table. |
We all can agree that even the best speakers respond to room placement but is it true or not true in (your experiences) that the better your audio components are, the less they respond to various tweaks?Totally agree to placement (as they are measurable). And it depended on the "tweaks" you mean, for the second half of the question. EG: snake oil ones or legit measurable ones? Cheers George |
For sure the costlier a system is, the more it seems for the owner that his system is "immune" to any embeddings controls...There is some truth in this because the engineering is more sophisticated to a point... But no speakers at any cost beat the vibrations aggression , a too high electrical noise floor in the house nor acoustic control... Embeddings controls are not for the gullible crowd unable to afford 100,000 bucks system but for all of us....It may cost very low.... By the way it is not necessary to prove or measure anything... We are in audio listening experiments not in a reunion of the "sunday club scientism and skeptic association ".... |
Master M.. Now we're talking.. 1. Lower the noise floor, and clean up the electrical. 2. Treat the room to match your equipment. 3. Take care of excess vibration. MC, Master M, and most here believe in that. How many others actually do it, a lot more than we may ALL think. ALL the tweaks in the world come right after these simple principals. Tweak away BUT do the basics FIRST. It saves endless hours chasing a null, suck out, combing or canceling effects... Tune The Room.... THEN tweak all you want.. GOOD Contact Enhancer is one of the best TWEAKS there is... 5 people out of 5 will hear the difference IF they treat the entire system.. I find like Douglas S cables in groups or sets tend to work better together. WHY? the way they are constructed for one, but JUST maybe, pre conditioning the cables and pre applied contact enhancers make all the difference too. I mean after all an RCA and a Speaker IC WHAT do they have in common? Usually two different types of constructs, with two entirely different purposes. low in, HIGH OUT! Maybe the low input might be sensitive to a little noise.. BUT the TWEAK is in construction of the cable and how a given manufacture assembles a product. EX: Cold Press with a contact enhancer and the cable being pulled off the spool the way it was put through the dyes... Is it a tweak or a way of constant thinking and keeping QC the same through simple practices.. Don't cost a CENT... Just peanuts... LOL So we are clear, some things are just for looks... nothing more nothing less.. I like eye candy, it doesn't always have to be pleasing to everyone either... I'm not into a space age studio look AT ALL... More of a Roman column guy. I use cable lifters, WHY? It's easier to clean under and I've ALWAYS had cables off the floor. So I really couldn't tell you what they sound like on the floor other than I know when they are.. It takes a while for me messing around to finally look and see something laying on the carpet or wood floors. You can hear it especially if it is REAL dry and the wind is really blowing... Ozone and humidifiers work.. tweak category for sure.. Maybe not so much in a higher humidity climate.. Zone exclusive tweaks.. Regards |
Having owned a Audiostore ,having techs working for me I learned the vast majority has average at best parts even Electronics over $10 k on average l25% or less actually goes into the product,the rest R&D overhead and markup. Some use fancy boxes and get $$ premium cost . Some of these speakers tons of cheap drivers and Xovers for big sound but will never refined like when using lessmuch higher quality drivers and premium Xover parts . thus is why Modwright was so successful modding makes a lot of sense .being in audio over 40years . The majority Donot use premium parts, average at best.This is why I upgrade my own Speakers xovers And have my electronics upgraded where needed with premium parts and connectors another big area most companies use garbage gold over brass , I us3 WBT copper gold , and the stock $2 IEC is a joke ,I use Furutech copper gold .and only Highpurity 6-9s Wiring. Fuses are the last thing, great system enhancement like the New 1260 3D total system enhancer from Hifidelity audio cables ,is like a system component upgrade . Doing mods for 20 + years now many Audiophiles should look inside ,and most speakers pure rubbish for parts in their Xover sad but true.just look inside you will see exactly what I mean. |
Maybe not so much in a higher humidity climate.. Zone exclusive tweaks..A fine brain with a big heart indeed! Or a big brain with a fine heart.....😊 I am not sure.... You dont need "tweaks" or upgrading for your soul for sure...You even treat your chickens well and even feed them too much.... For your audio system i dont know, because i dont have listen to it....But i always trust a mechanic who like pipe organ.... |
Wow. This opened a can of worms. What I have to say is that “generally speaking”, the better quality the system, the greater its ability to demonstrate the sonic improvements in tweaks ( ie better power cables and interconnects, footers, power supplies, etc). Think of your system this way, it is a system of parts and components that all work together. From the breaker box, the wire up to your listening room, the wall outlets, power cables, power regeneration or conditioning, to the components, interconnects, speaker and subwoofer cables to the speakers and subs, it’s a system and every part matters. It may even be along the lines of the sayings regarding the “weakest link”. Well if all your links are lousy, replacing one of the lousy ones with a great one may not make a lot of difference. But if your links are generally really good and you replace one with an exceptional link, now you may hear that difference since the rest of your chain or system has been well optimized. So I say the better the system , the more likely there will be sonic benefits from tweaks. |
One thing to remember which I learned long ago. $$ money doesnot guarantee your components synergy or even top quality . For example I have had several Loudspeaker companies, cable companies hang up on my when I questioned them on their pricing for substandard quality a $80 k speaker using $20 Mundorf evo capacitors, or a very famous British company known for their great custom midrange driver using Xover parts from Taiwan ,Yes sad but true ,the vast majority feel a ok capacitor ,resistor, or inductor is good enough ,out of sight out of mind .electronics same deal average at best parts even in electronics over $10 k each ,put it in a nice machined case And jack up the price . |
"Ok, so what I've gathered here is that the better a component is, the less it needs a tweak yet the more it is affected (not necessarily improved) by one." Thank you AEWarren. "NOT NECESSARILY IMPROVED" If something in a complex construction is changed, if it has any effect at all, that effect will either improve or worsen its operation. If the tweaks are determined without scientific analysis (as most are), logically 50% of changes will lead to improvements and 50% to worsening. So guys, what are all the tweaks that worsened SQ in your systems? |
Our hearing from the factory is not as highly developed as it can be. The more we use it critically, the sharper it becomes. Just like all of our senses. I think it improves with paying attention to it’s use, just like visual acuity. I conjecture that as our systems improve, so does our ability to discern differences in sound. For the individual that creates a paradigm where, instead of relying on our ability to make tweaks to our technology, we pay an expert to do it for us. I’m not sure I have any idea of where the point of diminishing returns and zero returns are, because I can’t say what the limits of any particular persons hearing is. I’m much more open to others opinion on what they can and cannot tell by critical listening than I used to be once I started to research the science of hearing, and could relate it to something I know a fair bit about; visual acuity, something that I got caught up in as an artist. It’s fairly maddening to be able to see things that others don’t, and some people are born with it, others have to develop it. I find that the more I listen to the system and not the music, the more critical I become of my system and obsessed with improving it, which results in refining my sensitivity to the changes in it. It doesn’t seem to end, but it is real. |
Power cords... Put fancy power cords on a LPS that feeds a DAC and on one on another LPS that feeds a fancy streamer. LPS's got super hot. Sound was straight crap, and I just knew I'd be sending the DAC and the streamer back. Then for sh!ts and giggles I replaced the fancy power cords with the wimpy power cords that came with the LPS's and the LPS's cooled down and the crap sound turned to pure bliss. |
There is an excellent article on this question written by Geoffrey Morrison in Wire Cutter. It’s called: "The Best Speaker Cable". Google it. It’s written from a scientific perspective (i.e. data; measurements; double-blind auditions; etc.). This article features a bunch of additional links to other articles regarding interconnect cables and testing procedures involved. I found it extremely interesting, authoritative and informative. It also corroborates my own experiences in this regard. For speaker (and other audio) cables, it comes down to this: as long as you’re comparing cables or wires, reasonably well manufactured of quality materials, under controlled critical listening trials, length and guage are what matter most. For example: given a 6’ pair of reasonably good speaker cables, will most people be able to hear the difference(s) between 16 AWG and 12 AWG cables or wires in casual listening? Most probably won’t. Will they be able to hear the difference(s) in critical listening? Some will; some won’t. Will bona fide audiophiles be able to hear the difference(s)? Quite likely. Will that difference(s) be profound? No, unless you want to ascribe a subjective definition to the word "profound". Will a $150.00 pair of good 12 AWG cables sound different than a pair of $10,000.00 12 AWG cables to the average listener in critical listening trials? Very likely not. Will the same cables sound different to bona fide audiophiles in critical listening trials? Some may hear a difference(s); some won’t. Will those audiophiles who think they can hear a difference(s) perceive that difference(s) as better or just different. Well, "better" is in the ear of the beholder but, basically, it’s really just a difference(s); not demonstrably better, per se. At this point, any perceived differences are subtle and minute in the extreme and no one will be able to convince an audiophile who has spent $10,000.00 on speaker or other cables that s/he could have spent a tenth of that or less to achieve, effectively, the same results! |
Ahhh, the Scientismists are at it again. Science has all the answers according to this "religion" Yet when they are backed in a corner they will say "science doesn’t have all the answers. Yet when someone tells of an experience they disagree with, they ridicule it, calling on science which they already have said doesn’t have all the answers So which is it? Either you rely on science exclusively, or not. This is the conundrum each one of the scientismists put forth because they always seem to mock experience they disagree with . No ones experience is good enough unless it agrees with the Scientismists POV. But the very word, to "Know" is based on experience. which I and many others have. AAMOF, Science itself is based on experience. But the Scientismists tell us that the very thing that makes science (experience) is totally dismissed when one of us claims our experience all because we don’t have a machine to measure something to tell us what we like or don’t like. Funny thing is that they can tell us about what they have read but I see little or no statements of their experience. Is it because they have no direct experience? There is much more to add but with dogmatic religious people whether it be Christian, Jew, Buddhist or Scientism, it becomes a futile effort because of Dunning Kruger syndrome which dominates most dogma. |
Obviously a more resolving system will resolve more including anything resulting from some change in the system. No mystery there. At that point, the "benefits" of tweaking further (other than to adapt to room acoustics) are mostly subjective and determined by personal preference. Once a system is highly resolving (and dynamic), the rest is basically room acoustics and seasoning to personal taste because you have achieved low distortion and noise, the things that muck with an accurate reproduction. Again though, if you do not first address the fundamentals of putting together a system that is both resolving and dynamic, no noise and minimal distortion, you will be seasoning ie tweaking forever because tweaks cannot produce what is not there to start with. Or you just may like to tweak out of curiosity. More power to you! It’s only when people talk solely about tweaking and mostly ignore or discredit the fundamentals of assembling a system that works well to-start that a red flag will go up for me. Sometimes people may tweak to try to get all or most recordings to sound some way that they expect or want them to all sound as opposed to how they actually do sound. Big mistake!!!! You will be spinning your wheels forever trying to make everything sound like some ideal. It’s delusional to think that can really happen. Every recording is different. If you can hear the differences clearly you are in a very good place! |
@artemus_5, Superchargers work, cable elevators do not. You are more than welcome to do anything you want to your system. My problem comes when you try to sell that BS to someone else. I tweak my system by modifying it's frequency response and adjusting speaker location with impulse testing. I do not do it with silly cables or overpriced tinker toy garbage. I suggest if you really want to tweak your system get one of these https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-OmniMic-V2-Acoustic-Measurement-System-390-792 |
Question for some of the responses. Are your listening skills better in hearing the tweaks? Or is the delivery making the sound better and your listening skills are the same? Reason I ask is I have noticed this mostly in my car. I think the combination of better bandwidth they are broadcasting with and the stations using higher quality dac’s have me hearing things I can’t recall hearing just 5 years ago. I am getting older and don't think the normal progression in hearing is it gets better with age. I am in the camp of little tweaks can make a difference but don't think it can be attributed to my ears getting better. |
The tweak eliminator in my experience is good room treatment.Wise observation! Controlling vibrations,decreasing the electrical noise floor and controlling acoustic are not "tweaks"... They are first necessity for any working systems to reach his peak optimal... It is called " embeddings controls" to not confuse them with secondary "tweaks" like cables, fuses, etc.... |
sgreg1- Question for some of the responses. Are your listening skills better in hearing the tweaks? Or is the delivery making the sound better and your listening skills are the same? A little of each I think. Used to think it was entirely down to listening skills. Because in the beginning I was like a lot and had a very hard time hearing any difference between a lot of different things. Different systems sounded very different, sure they did. But between two DACs or CDP or sometimes even amps was hard to be sure. Then one day something clicked, and suddenly all those audiophile glossary terms fell into place, I could hear them, and talk about them. When this first happened it seemed to me it was all down to listening skills. I even made a point of trying the same tweak in lots of different systems with lots of different components, different rooms, and always heard the same thing regardless. I still believe this is largely the case. Recent experience however has forced me to re-evaluate and allow that there might be some times when for one reason or another something works but you just can't or have a very hard time hearing it because of something to do with the system. Hate to say the system isn't resolving enough, but that just might be it. What made me reconsider was trying Townshend Pods under my turntables Verus motor controller. That thing has Synergistic Orange fuses in it, cones under it, a Shelf and weights on top. It is treated inside with fO.q tape and TC. It has a nice Shunyata power cord. It even has Active Shielding added to the umbilical. All these changes when done to all my other stuff each and every one of them was an obvious improvement. For whatever reason with the controller the changes were very subtle to the point I wasn't even all that sure some of them did anything at all. I was thinking this is the one thing impervious to tweakery! Then recently I tried Pods under it and was surprised the improvement was easy to hear! Now I guess it could be that the controller with all its timing circuitry is so different that it responds better to Pods than anything else. Or it could also be my system has finally reached a point where something even as subtle as motor control is revealed. At the very least it has to be considered. |
