Add a "Tube Buffer," Ex. Decware Zbox, before your pre-amp, and Class D Amplifier for excellent SQ.
Time to buy a class D amp?
Will some new class D amplifiers outperforming the current ones appear soon
(the newest ones i know were released a few years ago)?
Class D amps attract me as I consider them the most ecological ones with obvious non-auditionable benefits.
I have no doubts that they posses the maximum ratio performance/sound quality among the amplifiers of all classes.
At the same time, the sound quality the class D amplifiers that I have auditioned produce, although is quite good,
but not yet ideal (for my taste).
I use PS Audio Stellar S300 amp with PS audio Gain Cell pre/DAC with Thiel CS 3.6 speakers in one of my systems.
The sound is ok (deep bass, clear soundstage) but not perfect (a bit bright and somehow dry, lacking warmness which might be more or less ok for rock but not for jazz music).
I wonder if there are softer sounding class D amps with the same or better details and resolution. Considering two reasonable (as to the budget) choices for test, Red Dragon S500 and Digital Audio Company's
Cherry 2 (or Maraschino monoblocks), did anybody compare these two?
222 responses Add your response
I'm new to class D. About a year ago I bought a modded ps audio trying to build second system. For me first thing I noticed it took 5 days 24/7 to sound right, It has to have a very good power conditioner and descent power cord or I feel your wasting your time. I have tube and a/b amps they have never been that dependent on clean power. I started of with just a modded ps audio GCPH phono stage with volume control straight into amp. It was super clean an fast but became lacking. I wanted to try a big tubey Preamp so I found a used Bruce Moore. It sounded really good but not until I put Jupiter copper foils in the preamp. Copper caps and digital amps sound good together. For me it made the amp sound very natural. They use no electricity and aren't hot, I'm going to keep mine. |
You know what? I have had the best results with Class D. I have had a pair of Anthem M1 mono blocks which run at 2000 watts per channel each when the input mains are at 240 V, which I run. These amps absolutely blow away the Parasound Halo amp I had been running prior; that is the Class A/ AB amp which everyone says is so 'warm', touchy feely.... etc. No contest; not even close. The M1's are far more dynamic, cleaner, lower noise floor, far more open on the upper end and the low end is what people seek. Couple the M1's with a Whest phono stage on the input side for vinyl and just sit back and relax. |
I used to have the pleasure of owning a McIntosh MC275. That was when I used to sell audio. At that time I also got to hear some rare Luxman tube amps... And, a friend's refurbished Dynaco ST70. Yes... tubes have their benefits. But, I no longer miss them. I now own a NuPrime ST10. Modded with the TDSS modding. I do not miss tubes anymore. I also lived with a PS Audio Stellar 300 for a season. The Nuprime in certain ways is better at doing what tubes are known for. Just make sure you have the right cables for your system. |
Hello ptrck887, Yes, the D-Sonic are excellent examples of class D amps that provide hi-end sound at bargain prices. Of course, there are even better class D amps available, such as Merrill Audio’s new Element 114 stereo amp that uses the new extremely fast switching Gallium Nitride transistors, but it’s priced at $15,000. Here’s a review: https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/05/03/merrill-audio-introduces-the-114-new-gallium-nitride-amplifier/ But it better perform better when it costs over $12,000 more than your D-Sonic M3A-1500 mono blocks, which are their latest top of the line mono block amp model and utilize the latest very high quality power modules from Pascal. I use a pair of the slightly older, previous generation D-Sonic M3-600-M mono blocks, that were their amp model just below the M3-1500-M model, with Magnepan 2.7QR speakers and they’re the best amps I’ve ever used with them. I’m glad you mentioned how "dead quiet your class D amps are because this quietness, along with a very accurate, detailed and neutral presentation, are the most obvious qualities I’ve noticed in all the good quality class D amps I own and have listened to. The only difference I noticed between your description of your experiences utilizing class D and my own concerns performance on poor recordings. I find it’s become much easier to identify the quality level of recordings as well as upstream changes in equipment and cabling when using good quality class D amps compared to the good quality class AB amps (Adcom, McCormack and Aragon) I used previously. Enjoy, Tim |
I recently built a second system and after much reading and research bought D-Sonics M3A-1500 mono blocks. I ran them for about 300 hours using a SS Primare pre I had and driving a new pair of Maggie 3.7i's. The amps and Maggies both require significant run in time. I was very impressed with SQ....huge open soundstage....bass took some time to arrive but it is now present and impressive. HF still needs to open up a bit more but getting there. With burn in 90% there I swapped out the Primare with a McIntosh C2300 tube pre amp...at first pretty disappointing and a bit lifeless but let it run in for 24 hours and boy am I glad I waited. Very impressive. Huge open, layered and deep soundstage. Not as highly resolving or detailed and focused as my reference rig, but at 1/5th the cost I'm totally happy and I'm still tweaking the speaker placement. These class D amps are terrific. Dead quiet, wonderfully balanced top to bottom....nothing close to "bright". Huge open soundstage with great sonic images. Crazy power. Very musical. Someone above noted that on great recordings SQ is wonderful and even poor recordings sound great. I found that to be true. Hard to believe at $2,750. for the pair. |
Nodari, Might I share my experience with you? I run a PS Audio S300 and I have tried various preamps with it, including the matching Gain Cell Preamp/DAC. I got very different outcomes in terms of the nature of the sound output from my speakers. --I tried a good passive preamp....very dry sound, lacking in timbral fullness and color. --The Gain Cell DAC/Preamp created a smooth, rounded dulled sound, somewhat lacking in dynamic interest. I was surprised. --When I placed a tube preamp in front, the sound became, to my ears, spectacular. I was surprised how much the sound varied with these preamps. My final outcome is brilliant and not at all dry or bright. Great dynamics, timbral richness, clarity, resolution. Very happy. I suggest you work with that amp a bit more. |
I more of a believer that we "prefer" amplifier A vs amplifier B because of the way it makes our systems sound...to us...in our rooms...with our other equipment...and our selected music. In this respect, there appears to be plenty of people buying class d amplifiers and then making detailed descriptions about why they enjoy their purchase, as much or more than their previous amplifiers. This definitely describes my situation with the 2Cherry that I purchased from Cherry Amp six months ago...beautifully accurate tonality with veil removing clarity...the music is just more alive. But, it is only fair to say that not everyone has found a class d amplifier that was good enough to remain in their systems. To slightly paraphrase Herb Reichert in his review of the JBL A170...." In the realm of reviews, John Atkinson's measurements and my empirical observations have one important equivalency: Both are meaningless abstractions until confirmed by your listening experience". |
Class D is in prime time. Some companies like Bel Canto and Aavik, as just two examples, are putting out superb Class D. I just had a customer upgrade from a couple Simaudio pieces (certainly not inexpensive) to a Bel Canto Black EX integrated amplifier. He was in a situation in a new house where he needed something that didn't produce as much heat. I said he should try out the Bel Canto Black EX. When I brought one over to try, he was hoping it would get close to sounding as good. In my mind, I was quite sure the Bel Canto would sound better. He was thrilled to find out that he found the Bel Canto to sound superior. |
LOL....not hifi..... Tell all the reviewers including Stereophile that have done positive reviews of various Class D amps that. Not to mention the users like me. I get it. We're all obsessed with something. Some are obsessed with Class D not being perfect like pretty much everything else (yet). To each their own. |
Looking at your posts, I have noted that made an error in my initial post. I wrote: " I have no doubts that they (class D amps) posses the maximum ratio performance/sound quality among the amplifiers of all classes", whereas I meant that class D amplifiers give the maximum ratio performance/price, among all classes of amplifiers, where performance = sound quality. Or more widely, we may let performance = (sound quality - weight - size - energy consumption). Indeed, i think that Class D amplifiers are unbeatable in this issue and, very unlikely, this can be changed in the future. Hooking up for the first time my $1500 class D amp to my system, i was sincerely surprised how one can get that quality of sound for that money! At the same time, i think Class D is still under the basic development process (e.g. @yyzsantabarbara has posted a website speaking about recent developments in PURIFI Audio). I share (a common?) opinion that class D amplifiers give a clear transparent sound with details and resolution. True, but something is missing. The fact that sound is transparent does not mean that it is warm and live. Take a frozen or a wax figure. It is clear, transparent, even more bright than a human, but you can see that it is not a human - the spirit is missing. Likewise, Class D gives a detailed, bright sound, though some warmness is perhaps missing. It is possible that there are class D amps, that i have never auditioned, sound non-wax and warm (many of you mention Nord Acoustics amplifiers). But it turned out that one I have, PS Audio Stellar S300, an ICEpower model, should be one of the warmest sounding class D amps (so i am lucky!). Athough i can still enjoy it, not to the same extent. I share what George says in points 1 and 2. I do not think these are technical issues, rather they come from the auditioning experience. The tweeter damage issue, i think, should not be typical for any class D amp -- perhaps, this particular case was provoked by some wrong current or a defect of fabrication or the amp or/and CD. Thanks @golfnutz for your notes on Red Dragon S500 with Thiel CS3.6 that i bear in mind (I also own CS6s, both are excellent speakers, CS6s sound a bit more real though). I see Class D, being an ongoing development (carried out by the scientists), as the future of the amplifiers. Already today (unlike electric autos vs gasoline ones), Class D amps are considerably cheaper than Class A, AB amplifiers. They are much lighter, smaller, do not get hot and consume little energy. With all of this, the sound quality that they give is not that bad at all, and, i think, it will become better in the future. I think this development deserves a 100% support from all of us. Cheers, Nodari |
Like some one said here they have one that goes to 1mhz in bandwidth!! this one will certainly over time cook or quickly the tweeters voice coils.This is all nonsense. A typical residual waveform might be 1/2 volt; into 8 ohms that's 0.03 watts. A lower powered tweeter might be rated at 2 watts and would never see any temperature rise with such a small signal. This anecdote is misleading, false, is apparently calculated to cause alarm; its not based on an understanding of how class D amps operate. |
George, I believe your bringing up tweeter damage supposedly caused by class D amps and warning not to leave them on 24/7 are just red herrings since these claims are poorly documented and defy reason. Are you now so desperate that you're now reverting to attempting to scare individuals away from using class D amps in their systems? I've used two stereo and a pair of monoblocks in my combo music and ht system that have been powered on 24/7 now for over the last 5 years with only very positive and zero negative results. Just excellent sound performance, no excess heat and low electricity bills. You need a new strategy besides disinformation. Tim |
FWIW I’ve run a bunch of Class D amps over the last several years all the time and no tweeter meltdowns.I didn't say it happens with all, just one version of those Class-D's that I've seen. And when as Texas Instruments say, when the output filter is set too high to get more bandwidth from the amp. Like some one said here they have one that goes to 1mhz in bandwidth!! this one will certainly over time cook or quickly the tweeters voice coils. I even leave them on most of the time as recommended.I don't think this is a good practice, as you don't know or hear how much switching noise is being let through to the tweeters, if a bit, it can slowly temper and blue the voice coils, as what happened to my friends Wilson tweeters, they still worked, he was just complaining that his highs had deteriorated, and yes those well known expensive Class-D's were left on 24/7 for over 1 year on his speakers. Cheers George |
Read again from Texas Instruments, far more authoritative than you Ralph, and this is still with the output filter in place, but with it set too high, without it and you have a tweeter meltdown.Oh, sure- that is indeed a concern for the *designer*. Not the finished product! Your friend's speaker was not damaged by the residual of a class D amp; that idea is ridiculous. If indeed the anecdote is real and this isn't a made up story then the tweeter was damaged by an amplifier being driven into overload. That is the most common way tweeters are damaged. |
I run a BEl Canto C5i true-digital Class D integrated amp in a smaller system that would seem to fit your bill. Detail and resolution is top notch and never fatiguing. "Smoothest" sounding amp I have ever owned by far. Only 60 w/ch 8 ohm, enough to deliver the goods, but probably not concert level SPLs. I would expect other newer higher power Bel Canto class D amps would work similarly. I also have older Bel Canto ref1000m amps (500w/ch 8 ohm) that could fit the bill in my main system. Not quite as smooth as the C5i perhaps with some speakers, but similar and still a major improvement over any other amp I had used prior. If ever in Baltimore /DC metro area, would be happy to provide a listen if desired. |
Again back in product protection mode. Read again from Texas Instruments, far more authoritative than you Ralph, and this is still with the output filter in place, but with it set too high, without it and you have a tweeter meltdown. From Texas Instruments: This is what happened to my mates Wilson 8’s above, as Wilson does not use a Zoble Filters on it’s tweeter and I on any of their speakers tweeters. Cheers George |
From Texas Instruments on output filters of Class-D amps that are set too high corner frequency.This statement is false. There are no class D amps that run without filters- such an amp is theoretically possible, relying on the inductance of the load to sort things out, but so far even with GaNFETs the switching frequencies are far too low. More likely the reason for the tweeter failure (if even real) was that the amp used with the speaker was overloaded. That's a classic source of tweeter failure! |
Go near one with a portable am radio tuned off station around 600khz (or whatever your switching frequency is) and see what you get out of the radio.This is all nonsense. |
@niodariI, I would avoid the Red Dragon S500 as it’s spec sheet suggests 2.7 ohms minimum. This is the same as the Icepower 1200AS1 or 1200AS2. I think anyone using speakers that have an impedance below an amplifiers minimum rating will risk clipping the amp, and I don’t think you’d want that (under 3 ohms through MOST of the range). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(audio) From Stereophile measurements on Thiel 3.6. "The CS3.6's impedance magnitude and phase plot (fig.1) reveals a very low impedance value. The loudspeaker is under 3 ohms through most of the range, dropping to a minimum of 2.3 ohms at 3.6kHz (the cursor position). The low impedance value explains the CS3.6's need for the iron-fisted Mark Levinson No.23.5 to provide control in the bass; the CS3.6 would appear to be current-hungry".
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Over the decades I have owned tube, SS (Class A, AB): I have also owned 2 different older generation W4S amps, Emerald Physics 100.2SE monos, Audio Alchemy DPA-1 (UcD), and PS Audio M700 monos prior to the EVS 1200; it’s an entirely different sonic experience from what the naysayers pontificate The Audio Alchemy DPA-1 or DPA-1 monos (see TAS March 2016 glowing review) could well be the ticket for you, and are typically available at > 50% discount on the used market |
Why did twoleftears dog run out of the room when it was turned on?? Go near one with a portable am radio tuned off station around 600khz (or whatever your switching frequency is) and see what you get out of the radio. If you look at their output on a oscilloscope they are more than just noisy as heck! And that (undetectable to human) noise goes through to the tweeter if it’s not Zobel’ed as many hi-end ones aren’t Take the output filter off the output and they are an abomination of noise that the military could almost use as a mind altering stun weapon. Not noisy at all. sure Cheers George |
noble100clearthink,Anyone stating class D is "noisy as hell" very obviously doesn’t know what the heck they’re talking about. It’s simply not scientifically or anecdotally true. It’s not my opinion that class D is quiet as hell, it is a scientific fact. I stand by my statement that anyone claiming class D is "noisy as hell" has either never auditioned it or purposefully lying." I have never asserted or claimed that Class "D" is "noisy as hell" so you must be quoting some one else but I do understand that you believe your opinion is not an opinion at all but a "a scientific fact" supported by actual science which certainly lends an air of authority and righteousness to your beliefs that you embrace and insist others accept as a Literal Truth. It might amaze you to know that there are those here who will disagree with you and yet they are not lying but actually are expressing their own, individual, personal opinion that has as much value, validity, and authority as you're "opinion" which you assert as an indisputable, unquestionable, verifiable "fact." |
Since I perceive none of these effects in my system using numerous class D amps, by your own definition your claimed class D deficiencies don’t exist in my system.Good on you, your one of the few that do, for every one that does, there's two that don't However, I'm still willing to keep an open mind and will listen to any class D amp you deem to be perfected in the future just in case your claims are actually valid and I can perceive the audible results.Good way to hedge your bets. That way you won't end up with egg on your face when you do. |
I owned Nord NC500 Hypex class D monoblocks for 6 months or so this year. I found them to be very quiet and detailed, and fairly smooth sounding once they broke in (which seemed to take forever - easily several months). But ultimately, I was dissatisfied with them. I'm having a hard time putting my finger on what the problems were, but I just didn't feel the emotional connection with the music that I do with the right amp. I replaced them with a Parasound JC5, which I'm much happier with (the JC5 is admittedly twice the price). |
georgehifi: "What I hear from that technology, is dependent on where the "output filter is set" to filter out the switching noise. 1:Too high and it lets through too much switching noise but with reduced phase shift into the audio band, this to me sound hard and bright on music. 2:Too low and it roll off the highs and causes too much phase shift into the audio band, but it filters out more of the switching frequency, this to me sound soft and opaque in the highs, and not involving in the mids, but at least it’s not hard." Wow George, you finally responded to how your theorized and supposed class D deficiencies are manifested audibly. I’ve been requesting this info from you for what seems like years with no responses. What gives? I understand your position is not to utilize a class D amp until you deem it to be technically perfect and that’s your choice. However, to me and I believe to the majority of other class D amp adopters, making the perfect the enemy of the extremely good makes little sense. I’ll use logic to explain my perspective. Even if your theories about the deficiencies of most current class D amps are correct, that the current carrier switching frequency needs to be raised to the 1.5mHz range and the current output filters removing the carrier frequency are inadequate, they are meaningless to all individuals that do not perceive your claimed audible effects of the music sounding hard, bright, soft and opaque in the highs and not involving in the mids. Since I perceive none of these effects in my system using numerous class D amps, by your own definition your claimed class D deficiencies don’t exist in my system. I believe this is also true for all individuals who do not hear the audible qualities you detail in your above descriptions labelled as 1 and 2. Our combination of perceptions represent all of our realities. However, I'm still willing to keep an open mind and will listen to any class D amp you deem to be perfected in the future just in case your claims are actually valid and I can perceive the audible results. Tim |
Hello George You seem to know a lot about technical issues about class D Amps (I dont), but in my case I dont feel any of the problems you have mentioned above, if I understand you correctly. When I listen to music at low levels at night (everybody is sleeping), I dont feel the mids or the highs rolled off or not involving at all. In fact, as the AC Power is cleaner and the ambience noise is lower, I experiment the best of the music as it gets much more involving, smoother, with more dynamics, detail, better tone and with an incredible soundstage. Also, when I listen loud (I try not to do it often for my earing safety), I dont feel the sound harsh. On the other hand, I've listened to multi thousand dollars systems (+120k), much more expensive than mine, and I've found them harsher and with more digital flavour than mine. And those systems had class A or A/B amps. In fact, I've had class A valve amps that didnt sound as smooth and grainless as my class D amp, at all. I dont want to start an endless and pointless discussion, but my experience doesnt follow your theory. I guess there must be exceptions. My amp is a Nord Acoustics NC500DM with Rev D boards and Sparkos Op Amps. My preamp is the Audio-gd Master 1 and my DAC is the Audio-gd R8. I feed the DAC with the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo going through the Gustard U16 USB to I2S converter. My speakers are the Q Acoustics Concept 500 floorstanders. |
Actually thanks to twoleftears ’s dog, this would be a great way for Class-D owners if they have a young’ish dog to tell if their output filter is set too high or too low, as they will be one the other, or combo of both, eek! Just watch to see if they react when in the same room when you turn on and wait for the delay to switch on your class-D amp/s. I would say if you get no reaction you’ll have the "set too low filter" and you have a Class-D that is not hard or bright at all, but I bet it’s number 2: of the above. If they run out of the room or react you know it’s the high filter number 1: above. From Texas Instruments on output filters of Class-D amps that are set too high corner frequency. "A concern with the switching waveform being dissipated in the speaker is that it may cause damage to the speaker" This is what happened to my mates Wilson 8’s above, as Wilson does not use a Zoble Filters on this tweeter and I think all their speakers. Cheers George |
You say you hear somethings not quite right in the upper-mids and highs, and phase shift going on in those areas. Could you, respectfully, enlighten me as to what you are hearing?Not just me, unless you’ve been hiding under a rock, it a common complaint. What I hear from that technology, is dependent on where the "output filter is set" to filter out the switching noise. 1:Too high and it lets through too much switching noise but with reduced phase shift into the audio band, this to me sound hard and bright on music. 2:To low and it roll off the highs and causes too much phase shift into the audio band, but it filters out more of the switching frequency, this to me sound soft and opaque in the highs, and not involving in the mids, but at least it’s not hard. Nuforce with their many different 9 models tried different versions V1 V2 V3 in them, of the above output filter that were retrofit-able for customer that had issues with the sound. One of those version filters that was set way too high actually caused bluing of the Wilson Watt Puppy tweeter voice coil with HF switching noise (that only twoleftears dog can hear), didn’t stop them working just blue’d the voice coil with "undetectable to us" switching noise that was let through to them slowing cooking them over time. Naturally the diaphragms had to be replaced, he got rid of those amps. I know from your past posts you are not a fan of class D.BTW, Incorrect I’m not a fan of it’s two Achilles Heels, dead time and switching frequency. And I have said many times I’ll be the first to get one when they don’t have these problems and are a module I can buy an throw in a box like they do now with the old technology, but say they "modify it" so they can charge $$$$$ for, if you look at a $10k Contiuum Class-D, it has a $100 class-D module in it (modified of course), the same module is used in the $500 Red Dragon S500 class-D, this is not uncommon. Cheers George |
George. I own a class D integrated hybrid. I know from your past posts you are not a fan of class D. You say you hear somethings not quite right in the upper-mids and highs, and phase shift going on in those areas. Could you, respectfully, enlighten me as to what you are hearing? Please explain it to me, and I will try to understand what you are referring to. I have owned various amps over the years, mostly A/B types, and my class D amp easily outperformed all of them. Cheers, Tim |
Clearthink’s attitude towards, indifference to, or hate of, all things class D seems obvious. :-P It's pretty hard not to, when you know somethings not quite right in the upper-mids and highs, and then see this kind of phase shift going on in that same area https://ibb.co/48SSmLL . It’s enough to make clearthink think? Cheers George |
Whenever I turn on my Class D amp, my dog goes running out of the That's the residual switching noise coming out of your tweeters freaking your dog out, because the output filter can,t get rid of it totally without effecting the audio band even more than it does with phase shift. If the switching frequency were higher then the filter can be higher, and filter out all of the switching noise without any phase shift down into the audio band. Technics does this with GaN Technology in their $$$$$$K SE-R1 Class-D power amp with a switching frequency at 1.5mhz instead of what everyone else uses at 600khz Cheers George |
clearthink, Anyone stating class D is "noisy as hell" very obviously doesn't know what the heck they're talking about. It's simply not scientifically or anecdotally true. It's not my opinion that class D is quiet as hell, it is a scientific fact. I stand by my statement that anyone claiming class D is "noisy as hell" has either never auditioned it or purposefully lying. Have you ever heard class D? If so, would you describe it as noisy as hell? Elizabeth, Class AB Brystons are decent amps for Magnepans but, if you ever want to try out amps that have less distortion, much better bass, superior dynamics, are much quieter (much higher Signal to Noise ratio), a third of the size and weight as well as consume a fraction of the electricity, check out a good class D or two. Tim |
I'm surprised at all the disdain for Class D amps in this thread and a couple of others. They are not the be-all and end-all, but they can offer great performance at a pretty reasonable price. I have a Peachtree Nova 300 in my office system with Focal Electra 1008 BE speakers and am currently listening to jazz from my Magnum Dynalabs Etude tuner. The sound is very full-bodied and lifelike, with lots of detail. Horns sound great, drumming is very tight and realistic, and it has a great soundstage for the small space I'm in. The Peachtree, which includes a nice DAC, headphone amp, and phono stage is pretty small and light and doesn't suck up a lot of juice. I scratch my head a bit about it's claim of 300 watts per channel, it doesn't seem like it, but I rarely crank up the system in my office. My bedroom system has a Wyred 4 Sound ST-1000 MKII amp (460 watts per channel) with Crites modded KLF-30 speakers and an ARC LS26 pre. It bested amps from Krell, Parasound, Lexicon, Rotel, Emotiva, and Carver, and a new one is $2,000 (I paid $1600 for a B Stock Demo). It doesn't have the lush mid-range of my current tube monoblocks or quite the same amount of detail, but it's powerful, has excellent bass control, and doesn't take up much space. It's a little on the warm side, most notably the top end is a little rolled off, which is actually a good thing when paired up with the Klipsch speakers. The worst thing I can say about it is that it's kind of ugly. It's a bit "industrial" looking. Does it compare well against amps costing much more? No. Does it hold its own against other offerings in its price range? I think so, at least of the equipment I've heard. |