I own a Marantz SA-KI Ruby currently. It sits on top of 4 Stillpoints to mitigate the effects of vibration. They helped. If I was buying a new CD player right now I would be looking at the Luxman brand. I enjoy the Luxman sound from their CD players.
Time For a CD Player Upgrade
I've been using a Rega Saturn Mk 2. I recently upgraded my turntable to the Mark Levinson 5105 w/ the Ortofon Quintet Black S. In comparison my CD's are sounding overly bright. Any thoughts on a comparable upgrade to my CD listening? My budget is about $4000-5000, new or used. The Hegel Viking looks interesting. Any recommendation for an upgrade will be appreciated.
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If you have a good DAC then the D.BOB DSD/PCM converter is hard to beat. It cost $700-$1000. I use a $150 used Oppo player as a transport to the D.BOB and the D.BOB connects into my DAC via SPDIF. You connect the D.BOB with the transport by HDMI. My prior CD player was one of the best ever made, the SONY SCD-1 (modded by Vacuum State to 5+ level). The D.BOB is better in some ways and the SCD-1 is better in others. However, I have no need for a new CD player given the level of quality of the D.BOB.
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@nonoise - I don't like worrying about positioning that type of vibration control - too much playing around with positioning and spring (or the like) tension. I recommend either a platform that has the springs locked in like the Townshend seismic one, or the Rollerblocks I mentioned that are solid and dissipate vibration inside the component and isolate it from outside ones via ball bearings inside two solid discs that absorb the vibrations. Some who take it to the extreme even put the roller blocks under a platform for extra vibration treatment. I had to do a double treatment on my turntable - a wall shelf with a Townshend platform sitting on top of it. The Townshend actually created footfalls because of the springs, so adding the shelf eliminated them (as per Max Townshend himself-RIP - a kind of mad scientist). It was either that or don't use the Townshend, but that cleaned up the sound so much that I was going to either tread lightly and live with the footfalls or put the table and platform it on a wall shelf. Luckily the boss didn't object to the wall shelf in our den. Also, solid platforms with multi layers can work well. Depends on the application and component. I use them for my speakers because I didn't want them to be bouncing around. |
I have done a lot of investigations into using structures under audio devices that have a design intent to isolate the device from transferral of ambient energies within the listening area. CDP's CDT's and DAC's have all benefitted from this type of Support Structure when used in my own home and on devices in systems in other homes. To date I have found the best end sound had been through using 2 x Tiers of Panzerholz as Sub Plinths. The P'holz is separated by AT 616 Footers, the method has superseded other methods and proved to be very valuable at creating the Support Structure that really tidies up the end sound. More will be achieved, better/worse, when trying out additional footers types between the Top Tier and the Audio Device, bypassing the devices supplied footer. I have learnt there is not a ubiquitous method that works for all listening environments, playing with configurations of materials is required. |
Might want to consider the Audia Flight FLS 20. Have heard the Audia Flight One multiple times and it reproduces piano at a world class level. Have NOT heard the new 20 but let's assume it's even better than the One. dCS/Esoteric/MSB/Playback Designs all make great digital products but the FLS 20 could be a bargain in comparison? |
I just read some comments on the Michi Q5 on a short YouTube video of it and a Michi fan/owner said it uses the same $25 CD drive mechanism as Pro-Ject and that Marantz and Jays sound better. How he knows that is beyond me unless he's already auditioned it, which is highly unlikely. He even went on to say he'll probably get it anyway. Must be nice to have that much disposable income. All the best, |
@sokogear +1 I wasn't prepared for the changes in sound I got from my IsoAcoustics Oreas under my CDP. I was advised by Music Direct and IsoAcoustics to try them under the base plate and not the footers and move them about to settle on the changes I liked. That exercise drove me mad, with just a 1/4" move changing the sound dramatically. I tried all manner of positions and would get fantastic highs but smothered mids, magically wonderful mids with curtailed highs, tighter base at the expense of everything else. What I settled on was placing them directly under the footers and voila!, pretty much perfect in all aspects. The thing is, no matter where I placed the Oreas, the better results came from one directly under the CD drive mechanism, when using the base plate in place of the footers. That told me just how much vibration is in a CDP or CDT. All the best, |
Didn't hear anyone mention vibration control. Not sure what your CD player is sitting on, but vibrations affect CD players (along with turntables) the most out of anything and I bet (regardless of your surface and flooring) you would benefit greatly from a Townshend platform or podium combo or Symposium's rollerblock Jrs, or some other brand (I only have experience with those companies). There are low level earthquakes going on all the time that you can't feel, but your equipment can. I was amazed what it did for my turntable so much that I took care of my phono stage and amp and speakers (speakers were also a very highly use case with platforms and rollerblocks where they fit best).
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Well, there's a new kid on the block and it's from Rotel's upper echelon line, Michi. It's the Michi Q5 CDP, CDT & DAC.( I don't know why they call it all that as CDP covers it all)
And, as you can see, it's a top loader! All that for US $6999. I don't think it uses the Streamline CD-Pro 8 drive and is an in house design. I think the darn thing weighs 51 lbs.
All the best, |
@classicrockfan "If I were you I would get a CDT/DAC combo such as CEC TL5 CDT (directly from Japan)/Gustard A26 or SMSL SUX DAC(directly from China) for less than $2000, instead of spending that much to upgrade your CDP... the S.Q. is far better than any CDP". Another claim that you doubtlessly can't back up |
@no_regrets The Audio System is being packed away slowly/reluctantly. There is a intention to remodel the home. This plan for the home places me not of the Market to commit to a sale. I do believe, from my end and way of doing things, that I would be best to be straight, letting the Dealership Owner know, I am not in a position to commit to a purchase in 2024, or even 2025. It is then their choice if they want to entertain my inquisitiveness. If I make it known I bought a PTP Solid Nine TT from them quite a few years past, this might jog their memory and create improved chance of a visit being arranged. It was during this same period of visits that I was introduced to £6K Streamer, which did not make any impression on me, apart from the beauty of the aesthetic, all that Burl Walnut. A type of Streamer one might expect to be found as the music system in a Bentley Vehicle. |
McIntosh MCD600. Makes music sound gorgeous. Also plays SACDs. And it has a preamp built-in so you can go directly to your amp or amps. By taking my preamp out of the system I was rewarded with even more clarity of sound. Another veil that I wasn't aware of was lifted. The directness, clarity and purity are breathtaking. A used one is in your budget. The volume control is a joy to use. And so is the remote. You won't be disappointed. |
If I were you I would get a CDT/DAC combo such as CEC TL5 CDT (directly from Japan)/Gustard A26 or SMSL SUX DAC(directly from China) for less than $2000, instead of spending that much to upgrade your CDP... the S.Q. is far better than any CDP and offers its bluetooth convenience you can play Spotify via your iPhone or Galaxy phone besides playing your favorite CDs. |
My two cents: Late last year, I upgraded from an Oppo UDP-205 (which I've kept for Blu-Ray audio & video), to PS Audio's PerfectWave SACD Transport and their DirectStream DAC MK2. I did so mainly to access the DSD layer of SACDs previously unavailable, through the I [squared] S output/input arrangement of the companion units. That feature is stunning, yielding DSD 64 playback that has been a pleasant surprise from The Doors catalog to many classical SACDs. But the biggest surprise is CD playback, on par with the best-sounding SACDs in my collection. I don't really understand the technology, but PS Audio's "digital lens" is apparently the secret, a way of conveying the audio signal across a pathway independent of the hardware involved. I doubt that's an adequate description; visiting their website is mandatory. At $8000 + $7000, the combo isn't cheap, but PS Audio has one of the most generous trade-in programs I've ever seen. Original MSRP for any component in resellable condition, no matter now old. I've made some amazing deals with these people over the years. Finally, full disclosure. I'm completely unaffiliated with PS Audio other than being a thoroughly satisfied customer. |
@pindac You had mentioned..."A Local Audio Dealership is handling Jay's Audio, as said on another occasion, I am tempted to have a listen / comparison to my own CDT > DAC, but do not want to be a Tyre Kicker with the Businesses Time." If you have a sincere interest in how the Jay's would sound and perform, I think the business would be delighted to let you listen to it. How else would ever know if you liked it or not. You might be surprised as to how much you like it and if so, you might share that positive experience with us on the forum and therefore generate more business for the business. I think you should give it a try Best wishes, Don
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@jayctoy It is good to learn your investigations led you to discovering a methodology to have the extended use of your SA 10, having learned as you have has most likely created the situation where the idea of spending $3K-$4K is no longer a concern. I presume the remediation to the SA 10 was very affordable? I would feel reasonably confident to not receive any backlash, if I referred to a Typical Laser in a CDP - CDT being more akin to a Budget Phono Cartridge. Where the part produced is known for its function as having dependable reliability. For the individual with a little more insight, maybe Budget Cart' or the CDP -CDT is purchased with acceptance the sacrificial part and are a stepping stone. Where at at some stage of usage there is the knowing there will be a intention to upgrading to a improved Cart' or Laser Model, when more desirable models or compatible models become known. I don't see myself as being alone with this mindset, why spend ones own hard earned money, when one is learning about the end sound that is able to be produced. Spend ones hard earned, when one has confidence the end sound is the one that is the most preferred to the individual who is to do the spending. Laser's typically found in use and the ones that get the brunt of criticism when used for Audio Purposes, are models with a history of being used in computing, to be used with the CD ROM section on a Computer. Such models have a very very predictable reliability, there have been Multi Millions put into service. It is no surprise that the Large or Smaller producers of a CDP or CDT buy into using parts that are with a recognised reliability. I take it that when a Laser of this history is discovered used in a audio device that commands a large sum of money to purchase, the use of it when becoming known to a selection of individuals can be the cause of an affront as a follow up. I have been able to demo' my CDT > DAC in comparison to a variety of CD Sources up to £6K ish in value. Not at any time have I been informed my own set up is wanting, it has been the one wanted to be relistened to on occasions. I do not know how much a Laser assembly is improved over my own models in other devices heard during comparisons. A Local Audio Dealership is handling Jay's Audio, as said on another occasion, I am tempted to have a listen / comparison to my own CDT > DAC, but do not want to be a Tyre Kicker with the Businesses Time. |
Pindac great post. My SA 10 marantz player laser gave up with no warranty. Marantz service after warranty does not exist. I got very nervous because Iam not sure if the laser is still available? And can I even find tech to do it? Luckily the Agoners here guided me where to get the laser , and and tech. |
I have a different approach to buying into a used CDP / CDT. I look upon the Laser as a 'Sacrificial Part' that will one day not perform to the standard it was able to when new. Being relatively new to a CD Digital Source used in my system ( approx' since 2016) all other recorded music replays has been produced from the use of a Vinyl LP. Where the Vinyl LP has been solely in use and now used in conjunction with CD for near 35 + years, which is the timeline for my expressing an interest in a Audio System, as being of importance. This experience with using Vinyl LP's as the Source. Creates the conditioning for myself to be totally conditioned to buy into vital parts for the replay of Vinyl that are sacrificial in their function, i.e, most obviously the Phono Cartridge. Being investigative as an involvement with Audio Equipment, where time is taken for communicating with / or meeting with others with a interest in Audio Equipment, will enable others with much more information on board than ones own to reveal information that is pertinent to achieving improved experiences when using Audio Equipment. When being social and being engaged in discussions on Audio Equipment. It does not take long to learn there are many items which are used to produce a Sound from a recording that are by their nature 'Sacrificial', there is a limited period they function at their designs optimisation. Without going too off topic, the Phono Cartridge and Laser both produce the Source Information to be Transferred through the Audio Systems electronic design, to become an increased in gain signal, to the point the Voltage produced, is quite cables of making a Speaker produce Kinetic Energy, that is perceived as sound. Both the Phono Cartridge and Laser are sacrificial, they deteriorate over time, to the point they do not function optimally to their initial design. A Laser is expected to have much more Longevity of usage than a Phono Cartridge if both are being used continuously. I am very willing to buy both a Phono Cartridge and a device that contains a Laser to read CD as used items. In advance of a used item purchase, I do my research and learn what can be done with a model being purchased as used, when a malfunction is detected to be occurring. This is important to understand, knowing what are the options for a repair, if failure of the device is to occur. There is endless information about successful refurbishments of Phono Cartridges, there is a Industry dedicated to offering such a service. CDP - CDT is not met with such a easy to access support. Which does mean there is limited information to be found for a broad range of CDP - CDT models. The good news is that there are CDP - CDT models that are being refurbished with new or alternative laser's (in some cases the alternative laser is much improved as a model over the original laser used). A selection of these CDP - CDT models can even be discovered to have undergone additional design changes, that have added even more benefits to the electronic function of the device. I bought into a used CDT that has been well documented and reported on as being a removed from being a repair item by the OEM. It is also well documented and reported on, that this same model has been successfully repaired by non OEM EE Technicians or even enthusiast Technicians when the Laser has failed. My own stand, is the CDT is purchased as Sacrificial, with the notion, there is plenty now known to make sure it has options to be selected as means to be repaired when that time arrives. Used models of CDP - CDT can be found for approx' 30% - 50% of original retail when a prudent search is carried out. My own CDT was bought for 40% of the original retail price. To date it has, as a Guestimate, between 1400 - 1800 hours usage. It is now used to reduce the use of a Phono Cartridge, which is even more beneficial. The cost of CDT - cost of DAC, has been much less than that of the cost for a Phono Cartridge cost that is able to compare to it, when perceiving the qualities of each end sound that is produced. My CDT > DAC has been used in systems with a Vinyl Source Equipment costing £20K ish, with the Cart' being more than £3K. The listeners have been very vociferous in their appraisal for the Digital Source Equipment during the comparisons. A refurb on a Cart' is usually anticipated at approx' 1000 hours of usage, but there is info from manufacturers that does not adhere to this guideline. Typically $450 and ascending in costs is a Cart' refurbishment quote, depending on the Cart's needs. My used CDT has as stated, in my ownership had approx' 1500 hours usage. I am over the moon at that, as a longevity of non problematic function, the cost of usage into a hourly incremental breakdown, when compared to what can be attributed to a Cart' incremental hourly cost over a range of 1000 hours usage has the owned CDT coming in at quite a smaller cost per hour as well at this stage of usage. If the CDT's Laser failed now. I can get the CDT back to functioning, by supplying the replacement part to a skilled EE Technician. The expected cost for both part and labour will be close to £100 +/- £30, if the professional service is the adopted method. I don't think l would be too far out in assuming another 3000 hours of Laser usage will follow. This starts to make the incremental hourly cost of a the CDT extremely attractive as a tool to generate a Signal, when compared to a hourly incremental cost related to certain models of Phono Cart'. Add to the addition of the CDT > DAC the vast CD Collection now acquired, where a large range of CD's bought used has been for less than £1 and more expensive being between £1 and £5, the Music Collection able to be replayed has exponentially grown. I would be comfortable stating the cost of 10 x Typical Purchase Methods, used Vinyl Albums, has cost the same monies as more than 300 CD's being purchased. From my end there is a substantial amount to like about the Used CD - CDP - CDT market. Careful Purchase Planning and Caveat Emptor are ones best friend in such a matter.
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The EAR Acute is a model I have heard as the supplied model and one having been experienced whilst undergoing Tube Rolling. Additionally, I have also been present whilst a selection of Interconnects have been tried out. There is a substantial gain to be had by doing such things, and the supplied version blew me away when first heard in the system it was demo'd in. |
@pindac I almost mentioned the EAR Acute because a nice one came up for sale the other day (at the other US market place). They look fantastic, and especially being EAR, I bet it sounds amazing. As a bonus it also has balanced outs. I’d be all over that if I were OP. Separate DACs can be cool, but I’ve heard plenty that are very "meh" to me. They can also sound quite different depending on which input / transport you use - adding complication and boxes. A well designed 1-box CD player sounds great, more often than not, and I’ve taken to burning my FLACs to CD-R when needed. |
OP I've never heard a Rega Saturn CD player, but my assumption is it does a great job at playing CDs. Get a high quality DAC, and run the Rega into the DAC.....there are dozens of threads here on good DACs at multiple price points. Denafrips Pontus II 12th or 15th, Denafrips Terminator II, Holo Audio May DAC, Weiss DAC, Musical Fidelity Soix also made a good recommendation: get a Denafrips Pontus II (12th or 15th), and a Denafrips DDC like the Iris or Hermes.........and you've got a great starting point for $2,400 new as well (this is what I am still using) |
AXPERT AGAIN !!!!
I missed "giatsalami's" posting. I have to admit that I agree 1000% with this gentleman. AYON is unquestionably the "BUGATTI of Audio". I didn't mention it for two reasons; - - -COST and not knowing how you might feel about "tube-based audio equipment" I have owned, borrowed, and auditioned so many pieces of audio gear over the past 70 years that I have almost lost track mentally. But without a doubt, AYON stands out in the component genre with almost no peer at any price. And there are currently several marvelous designs out there that come closer and closer to "reality".. A complete top of the line AYON system paired with the right loudspeakers,. and you could float away to heaven. |
UNQUESTIONABLY, there are four or five candidates in this price range that would be exceptional performers. But here's the thing. A CD player, as is the case with a turntable package, can be a reflection of personal listening capabilities and preferences. Different people hear differently. Making an absolute recommendation can be a quite random situation. I don't know how you went about selecting your new turntable package. Truthfully, the same can apply to this music playback media. Your REGA player has always been considered one of the top picks in your price range, with a very accurate musical playback character. On the opposite side of the fence, I can only state that your choice of cartridges is not one of my favorites. I have owned two, and finally moved to what I feel is a pickup with greater "musical truth and accuracy". That being said, if you have any past experience at all, setting up a turntable arm/cartridge package on various turntable bases, can be technically difficult at best. I can only add that my experience with you pickup, as used with both a PRO-JECT and a TECHNICS turntable, left me with the feeling I have already stated. Compared to both of my CD player's reproduction character, I found the cartridge to be more two dimensional, leaving the sonic impression of a brighter character. WELL, so much for that. WHAT IS MY RECOMMENDATION - - - - - - - -?? Don't spend the kind of money you are suggesting on a CD player (EVEN AN ESOTERIC) without having done an extensive listening audition.!! To me this piece of audio equipment is such a "subjective" choice, that to do otherwise, could be a financial disaster. Unfortunately, having access to a "brick and mortar" audio studio can be most problematic for many people. I hope that is not the case for you. Also, I do not recommend making this type of choice based upon attending audio shows. A TERRIBLE VENUE TO SHOWCASE AND MAKE BUYING DECISIONS (PERIOD.) One thing I am curious about; - - - - before the new TT and cartridge came into the picture, how did you feel about the sonic character of the REGA? Did it seem overly bright to you (reflecting a high frequency over accentuated reproduction curve?) The REGA should have a well-controlled, flat high frequency response. The one variable I might mention, that obviously differs between the TT and the CD player could be the interconnect cables you are using in either case.. Also, something to look into might be phono preamp settings and character. Another possible culprit.
GOOD LUCK AXPERT |
I bought a Schiit Bifrost 2/64 and got the upgrade, then noted that I didn’t have anything that could utilize Schiits touted "Nexus" USB input. I then bought one of their URD transports and a proper cable and VOILA (I’ve never used that word in writing and had to ask my wife how to spell it). For close to 2 grand I’m getting a (Redbook only) seriously great sound out of that combo. Others should pay way more for something else (please) so I can continue to gloat over my purchase of these items. The URD should be serviceable for the foreseeable future and the Bifrost is upgradeable...so hey...gloat gloat... |
“… I doubt that a new CD player will sound less bright than your Rega. CD players have a flat frequency response and from that standpoint they sound very similar to one another.… MY TAKE: I strongly disagree with that over- generalization. The REGA ISIS VALVE cdp/DAC is another valve cdp option that sounds very different from a solid state spinner. Yes, I bought one too , and it is not anywhere near in audio performance nor presentation to any of the lower range REGAs I auditioned, nor any other solid state units OEM brands, So here is a précis from the REGA website ” …. Rega’s now legendary head electronics engineer Terry Bateman spent 10 years researching the concept of a CD player using valves in the output amplifier. Valves have been widely used in musical instrument and recording amplification from the 1950s to the present day, therefore it made great sense to develop a valve based CD player to match that of the signal chain found in such applications…. Valve version of our reference Isis CDPThe valve Isis shares the same digital and USB sections as found in the solid-state version, however, the analogue stage is valve based with passive filtering. This stage uses two military specification triple mica 5814A (ECC82/12AU7) triodes being driven by the revolutionary Wolfson WM8741 ultra high performance digital to analogue converter….” Valves provide further tuning options
The apodizing filter was specifically designed to minimize pre-ringing in low-sample-rate digital signals. Dr. Peter Craven, whose credits include the Ambisonic soundfield microphone and lossless data compression, invented it in co-development with Meridian. It combats the way that digital filters ring at half their sample rate, something that’s always going to be a problem for CD with its 44.1kHz rate. I have encountered this type of filter in two other players to date: the Copland CDA825 and Meridian’s own 808.3 -- players that sound so different from one another that it’s impossible to assess exactly how beneficial apodizing filters are. However, out of the three players assessed so far, two have been extremely good. So on balance apodizing helps.…” More technical bits. Rega does something that to my knowledge is unique among CD-player makers: it builds three matched laser mechanisms for every Isis. One is installed in the player, and the other two are stored at the factory. Should the original mechanism develop a fault, the company will always be able to provide precisely the right replacement. That’s taking customer service to a new level. TAKEAWAY : option 1: If you choose an all in one unit then this cdp/dac is one option. :(note: it has a USB direct input into its high-end DAC to play digital files) Buying new at $13K plus taxes may hit a resistance based on price, but a pre-owned unit at a discounted price tag, may sooth the budget woes option 2: Think high-end stand-alone DAC or streamer / DAC (with quality cables) and use your existing cdp as a transport . I also have a MOON 280D MiND2 player for hi-rez digital files playback. |
I doubt that a new CD player will sound less bright than your Rega. CD players have a flat frequency response and from that standpoint they sound very similar to one another. I think what you are hearing is a rolled-off high frequency response from your new Ortofon cartridge. It is making your CD player sound bright by comparison. You don't say which presentation you prefer but if you like the less bright sound of your turntable then getting an equalizer to put between your CD player and your preamp may be a better answer. FWIW, I'm running a HANA SL cartridge and it sounds strikingly similar to my digital rigs. The freqency response of the HANA is very flat. I have a couple DACs, a couple of transports, a CD player, and an SACD player and they have slight differences but none of them sounds brighter than the other. It would be intersting to try the HANA and see if that sounds more like your CD player. Depending on the rest of your system the diminished high frequencies you are hearing from your ML/Ortofon combo may be preferable in which case you might want to reevaluate your speakers. |
After buying used Marantz, Bryston, Esoteric, and T+A spinners and always having problems, I bought a new Ayon player and took advantage of the zero percent financing. Best purchase ever. A fantastic unit that has a tubed preamp section. I sold my Primaluna Pre and never looked back. Highly recommended. |
