Thoughts on the Linn LP12 turntable

Please.

I'm still paying off my analyst bills after owning one some 20 years ago.

As A Linn owner of 38 years, my view is that at every price level that Linn offers a table, there are many superior tables, often cheaper than a Linn. I have spent several times the original price of the table to improve it. It is an outmoded design that will be a money pit for you if you buy one.

I usually refer to a Belt Drive Turntable I have owned for over approx' twenty five years and not used much for over twenty years, where it was superseded in use by other non Belt Drive TT's.

Occasionally the Belt Drive has a spin, as a reminder of what a Old Belt Drive design can do in comparison to a Old Idler and Old Direct Drive.

The Old Belt Drive does not encourage much to be done with it other than put back to its resting place. Where as each of the other Drives have been very successful at encouraging a furthering of their capabilities of performance.

The Old Belt Drive is a Linn.     

Just looked up the Klimax LP12 is $30,150 ! Are U F-ing kidding me! I'd take a DC motor Kuzma Stabi R with 4POINT arm and still have over 10k left for a cartridge. 

A friend just recently returned from Michigan with his LP12 after having Tom O’Keefe install a new bearing in a new wenge plinth, then professionally setup and listened to.

@slaw By the time he gets it home, it'll need a tune up!

I was asking him about that. He expressed that concern and in the end things seemed to have worked out nicely.

The LP 12 is a relic of the past. There was a time when it was the best sounding table at a reasonable price. It was always a PITA. I owned two of them but it was always a love hate relationship. I got my first Sota in 1981 and never looked back. There are so many suspended tables that do it right now the Linn is not even worth a look. Used ones are popular on the market. People buy them and get going with the endless Linn upgrade program and think that turns them into something special. You can not turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. It is an antiquated design any way you look at it and it needs to get thrown out with the bath water. 

As usual the typical naysayers are swinging for the fences..

 

The current LP12 Klimax model had a good review recently by Herb Reichert in Stereophile. Herb compared it favorably to his Dr.Feickert and others and seemed to feel it was still at the upper echelon of performance!

What one has to consider when reading the posts from the usual suspects is this...when was the last time any of these boys actually owned the LP12 ( if ever!). The answer in almost all cases is either never--or decades ago, or they still own their 70's vintage model and cannot comprehend why it doesn't compete with the current versions! LOL.

Still have my Linn Axis which is a lp12 for dummies on a budget since 1987.   Love it!  Dread the day when I might finally have to replace it. 

Mapman, I am in the same place-have my beloved Linn Axis with basic plus since 1987. Never any problems and have yet to here a turntable in under 3 grand that beats it!

I had an LP12 for about 22 years with all available upgrades.  When the Keel was introduced, I demoed a similarly speced LP12 with Keel against an SME 20.  I much preferred the SME, which I have happily owned for 16 years without any upgrades.  I would never go back to a Linn, especially at today’s prices.

A relic from one who's a proponent of well thought out spring suspension tts.

Had one of the first handful of those in the 70's.  Put many $$'s into it until I simply got tired of doing so when I could see other options entering the market (and being further developed by others). 

Was a nice table all along.  Finicky with setup more than others, but nice.

But it was an entirely other experience when I laid down the coin for a VPI and realized the ease available for what to me was still a very good sound.  I still have that same VPI and no reason for any upgrade as the years moved on.

As an owner of a contemporary Linn LP12 (almost Klimax) I can say unqualified that today’s Linn LP12’s perform at levels commiserate with their cost, competitive with units of many ten’s of thousands dollars. You can see my system under my UserID.
 

From my research and experience Linn has advanced continuously over the last decades besting their competitors while allowing all older tables to be upgraded to contemporary performance. 
 

I am currently listening to my Linn LP12 with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature using a Audio Reseach Reference 3 Phonostage… this combination is simply breathtaking.

Sometime in the '90's my wife bought a Linn from the esteemed Gene Rubin. In other words, it was quite well-set up. I can't remember the arm or cartridge but they were Linn/Gene Rubin approved.  I already had a SOTA Sapphire with the modest arm they often came with (an MMT?).. .When the wife went out of town for a time, I set up both 'tables side-by-side and did several weeks of intensive comparative listening. The verdict -- The Linn had better speed stability and the sound had more punch. Yeah, my toe did do some tapping. The SOTA system, by contrast, sounded more immersive.  The timbres of the instruments felt more authentic and I got a more precise, fall-into-it sound-stage. The Linn's bass was more tuneful but the SOTA's went deeper and sounded more natural. In any case it wasn't  long before I put the Linn back where it came from..

When the Sondek was introduced in the early-70’s (I first learned of it in 1974), Linn was touting its superiority over all other current tables (I at that time owned a Thorens TD-125 Mk.2) in two regards:

1- As the first turntable designed with the table’s job defined in terms of it’s performance as a mechanical component rather than an electronic one. For that reason they put a lot of emphasis on the quality of the deck’s main bearing, an idea now taken for granted but in 1974 wasn’t.

2- As the turntable affecting not just the sound of music, but the musical performance that is contained in the LP groove. They invented the concept of a turntable "playing the tune". It was for the Sondek’s musical qualities that many early (and perhaps current) Sondek enthusiasts---including Herb Reichert and Art Dudley---were long-term owners of the table. After many years as a Sondek owner and lover, Dudley eventually decided idler-drive tables (Thorens TD-124 and Garrard 301) "played the tune" even better that the Linn, and made the switch.

Detractors dismissed Linn’s argument (regarding the Sondek’s superiority as a tune player) as Linn-created mythology, designed to make a rather ordinary suspended turntable design (the Sondek is basically the same as the budget-priced---80 bucks in the early-70’s---Acoustic Research table, but with parts machined to a higher standard) be perceived as something more than it actually was.

That was the situation until Peter Moncreiff in his magazine International Audio Review pitted the Sondek against the Oracle Delphi, pronouncing the latter "634 times better than the Linn," Linn and their enthusiasts dismissed that claim as the expected result of listening to tables for the wrong things.

As far as I know, though the Sondek has been upgraded in many regards over the ensuing fifty years, that remains Linn’s argument.

It sounded pretty good in its day, better than the AR table that was basically the model design used by Linn,  But the design was dated back into the mid-1960's. The Linn arms were manufactured by Jelco and OK, but Jelco had better models for much less.  Not sure who manufactured Linn cartridges, but they were never competitive with like-priced offerings from other cartridge manufacturers.

When VPI came along, it quickly dispatched a lot of Linn LP-12 tables to the for sale listings.  VPI and other table manufacturers moved the state of the art forward.  Linn stagnated.

Those hanging on to their Linn tables do so for sentimental reasons, not for performance.

 

I’m a Linn naysayer... I owned this table back in 1975 and I had so many problems with it after my car mechanic and I set it up i could never recommend it, which is why i sold it then. My friend also owns a Linn LP12, he bought his in 1980 and updated it in 2000 to the current model, he also set it up himself and there is no doubt that this table is easily bested by my new Crossley. I love my Crossley and i know for absolute certainty that it sounds way better than the Linn LP12 of any vintage. i have not heard a Linn LP12 since 1980, BUT I know for sure that it is overpriced and like bpoletti stated --exists for sentimental reasons and has no performance.

After having been influenced by Art Dudley, I bought a Garrard 401, and did a DIY overhaul. I built a plinth that I love, put a Dynavector 501 arm on it, and have been enjoying it for years.

The 401's are not fussy, built very robustly, and sound great. Sure beats the Project table and VPI Scout that I bought when first returning back to vinyl. But what it does is more than sufficient to keep me happy with its performance.

The analog front end is superior to my digital these days, so yes, it's quite satisfactory for me.

Best regards,

Dan

Meh - it may have been a great table when it came out, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would buy a new one now.  There are many tables that sound and look better at that price point. It may be a great starter table at some of the used price levels. There used be an ad for a Linn 40th anniversary LP12 here on Agon which started out at $40k and came with a bottle of Highland Park scotch. It dropped down to $22.5k over months - not sure if it ever sold. I was always tempted to make an offer of $50 for the scotch.

I have always been a fan of vintage audio having gotten into my first “high end” equipment In the late 80’s. I had been using a SOTA Sapphire for many years but found a decently priced used LP12 (circa 1990) last year. As someone who likes to tinker, I took the time to upgrade the motor and control (dual speed) and tune the table. Once I properly installed my cartridge, I was extremely amazed at the how much better this table was than my SOTA- quieter background, phenomenal dynamic range and outstanding soundstage. I do see all the “naysayers” but in my system, the LP12 is staying. I like the fact that I can continue to upgrade it as time goes by. In fairness, I haven’t had any of the newer higher end turntables (don’t have any need at this point), but I wouldn’t dismiss the LP12. 

I don’t own a LP12. But these threads on various forums always seem to be filled with posts that state “I had one in 1978” or “I have not heard one since 1982” but that 40 year gap does not mean that naysayers are not experienced “experts” in the steady evolution and upgrade path that so many owners have enjoyed over the years.

The LP12 is perhaps the most successful longest running product in high end audio history. Is it the ultimate for everyone? No. Is is a solid platform for those who enjoy long term tinkering with many upgrade options? You bet!

@photomax Thank you for your points. I pretty much agree with you, except if set up correctly, the current LP12 can actually be set it and forget it, no need to tinker.

Personally, I give no credence to folk who naysay the table and who do not own it, (even worse if they do not own it..and have never heard a current model--like most of the denigrators) or do own it, but have an older table that is nowhere near what the recent models feature and have never had it set up correctly!

I have an Ariston Rd11. There are many accounts of how this design was “stolen” by Igor Tiefenbraum, I am not sure if the whole story will ever come out. High quality bearing, 9 pound aluminum platter, clock radio motor with little torque, hence speed stability when up to speed.

and hard to balance the damn sub platter, having to take off and reinstall the plinth, having to dress cables, and boy are you on your own to install an arm (mine is n old Grace 707.

has a dust cover, which modern ones often don’t have.

 I have developed tremor in my hands, so adjusting the damn thing and the cartridge is one reason why I have gravitated to streaming- so easy, and yet superior in my system to vinyl.

After having been influenced by Art Dudley, I bought a Garrard 401, and did a DIY overhaul. I built a plinth that I love, put a Dynavector 501 arm on it, and have been enjoying it for years.

The 401's are not fussy, built very robustly, and sound great.                        

I have owned the Garrard 401, it is the TT that was able to move myself away from using the Belt Drive TT's. I do not recall the desire to try out other Belt Drive TT's in my system once moved over to the Idler Drive.

The 401 ended up seated on a '9 Stone' Granite Plinth.

A PTP Solid 9 is its replacement today but not its betterment, each have their merits in the realm of Vintage Idler Drive Systems. Each Idler Drive method, are also now able to be modified with a modern design approach where materials are able to be used that are produced with improved machining tolerances and potentially have a beneficial impacts on the overall function of the original design.   

I have an Ariston Rd11. There are many accounts of how this design was “stolen” by Igor Tiefenbraum, I am not sure if the whole story will ever come out.

Multiple Parts that were produced for the Ariston Deck and the earliest Linn Decks were produced on the same premises that was carrying out the machining.

The Ariston and Linn are allegedly sharing parts in the Linn’s earliest build guise, the Ariston was a Branded and Successfully Marketed TT, prior to the first produced Linn Deck.

This is a fable that is voiced regular within the British Isles. I only know this version of the origins, through handed down story telling.

The reality is the founders of Linn were inspired to create a marketable product, which they did, they have now 50 Years on, developed a Brand that is household across the globe that as a business is turning over £ 1 000 000 000 per annum.

This type of story is not restricted to one British Brand, Rega have had their earliest RB Tonearm designs, become the bedrock products of many Companies that offer sale items based on the Rega RB Tonearm Design.

I’m not knowing how successful these Companies Sales are in comparison to Rega, when it comes to turnover solely from a Tonearm sale.

 

My old table was never replaced after a move killed it (old Dual something), so about 10 years ago or so I bought a nice old Linn Basik with an Akito arm for 500 bucks...thought it would do until I found something better. Changed out the tonearm cable to a really well made Jelco Canare and it’s quiet as a mouse. Had it tuned up last year at Goodwins (surprisingly inexpensive as all I thought I needed was damping fluid in the cue lever) and it’s still here. My Ortofon Quintet Blue MC sounds sweet...even the Goodwin’s tuneup dude thought it sounded great (that was with a Quintet Red) and he could have sold me something for multiples of what the Basik might be worth...at this point the thing has earned its place. Might try a Linn Majic as I can get an interesting color, but am in no hurry.

LInn was very good, groundbreaking in its time (early 70s in fact OP).  In the 70s I had an original spec LP12/Ittok.  But all the upgrades do not and cannot make a silk purse because advancement can only be achieved within the envelope of the original design now almost 50 years old.  To pay £30,000 for a Linn today is madness but some still do it.

Against that, in principle Linn is right to keep it simple.  All today's over-engineered blingy record players have long lost the principle that we are simply playing records.  I want none of it.

I have had three Simon Yorkes starting in the 80s replacing the Linn and each has been a massive improvement over the Linn and the previous.  They leave the Linn in the dirt without idiotic engineering bling.  Remember SY was Fremer's reference for 8 years.  Those of us who have the few he built are very fortunate.

 

I spent many hours in the 1980s setting up LP12s. Despite the quasi religious fervour surrounding them, I never liked the sound. Ironically, despite Linn going on about PRAT, the LP12 never sounded right temporally. And when a company introduces a tool to straighten bolts that should have been straight (peripendicular) in the first place, you really have to ask questions. I moved of from there to a Roksan Xerxes which, while finnicky about setup itself, was much better sounding.

In the intervening time, Linn have pretty much reengineered/redesigned most of the turntable and have addressed a lot of its original weaknesses. However, the price of doing so has put it into competition with a lot of very fine turntables indeed.

As a concluding remark, the Linn tonearms were much better engineered/toleranced than the deck, the Ittok had one major ergonomic flaw in the very limited range of vertical motion available when cueing. This, combined with the bounciness of the suspension, made the deck horrible to use - for me at least.

Great table when set up properly.

 It was one of the few things I brought with me when I moved from the UK to the US 25 years ago- unlike 98% of my vinyl collection which went curbside for the garbage collector, along with my Quad ESL57s.

 

My only gripe nowadays is trying to assess the resale value of a used LP12. One literally needs a spreadsheet to chart the impact of the dozens of potential mix ‘n match upgrades that a used deck might have. 

Bought an Axis In the early 90s, it was a good upgrade from my Dual 505. An LP12 followed in 1995 which I then had Lingoed. I was more than happy with the sound at the time compared to CD. My LP12 has been dormant for a few years now as I’ve gone 100% streaming. God knows how much an LP12 update would be to bring the quality up to my present system (my Sondek sounds flat with a very limited soundstage in comparison) and tbh, if I fall under the spell of nostalgia for vinyl there are so many other great decks I’d just trade in the Linn for something else.

We sold them when they were new in the 1970's.  They were VERY fussy and bouncy and took forever to set up.  Not BAD, mind you, in sound, but when Technics came out with direct drive, well, some customers still liked their 12's, but many of my people went to Technics and were very happy.  Some of the inexpensive ones did not sound as good as the 12's, but the better ones were clearly much easier to deal with and set-up and actually USE, plus they sounded better, so they won out.

There were other TT's that we sold that were good as well--LUXMAN comes to mind, but belt drive tables have inherent issues that DD tables do not.  Of course, not all DD tables are created equally, so check it out IN YOUR ROOM with the arm+cartridge+cartridge pre you use to find what works best for YOU.

As for current Sondek prices, well, as a dealer, I would be VERY happy to sell you one, right?  How many would you like?

Cheers!

They’ve been around since the late 70’s and other then power supply and a few other minor changes (IMO) are relatively unchanged. 

That alone is a high praise, but minor changes, not really.

Everything is changed, plinth, base, bearing, spindle, sub platter, suspension, sub chassis, motor, power supply, plus more.

There was i time when i nearly pulled the trigger but the Pink won, did not regret it.

I think some of the Linn bashing above is well ioff base, but it is old (and as noted older units are inferior to later units) and like any market leader, was never the best at its price-point.  Logic, Pink Triangle and myriad others were superior for less money with suspended designs. I still have three belt drive, suspended tables. Lin is #3.  Both my Logic and AR (or, well, it was an AR once) are superior.

The latest direct drive tables with insanely massive platters (flywheels) are very very good, and have superior speed accuracy at least.

Chepaer tables out there today, i will wager, are inferior.

OMG. I have owned an LP12 with a Basic LVX since 1983, and it has been in daily use since then, only stopping twice for repair/upgrade. Currently a Lingo 1 and an LP Gear AT95SA. Still enjoyable, and my 66 year old brain gets pleasure from the sonics. This turntable has never been fussy, it has moved with me 3 times. The rest of my kit is a timeline of Linn, Aktiv Keilidhs, Akurate Kontrol and AV5125. 

It is astonishing that so many vinyl listeners are so stridently negative about ONE product. What drives this? 

My habits have changed, so most of my listening is through streaming, but my LP12 will stay with me until...

 

 

"... perform at levels commiserate with their cost..."  Commiserate. Hah! Great typo! 

Belt Drive TT's born from this era, which there are a reasonable amount produced as Models from Brands, were produced at a time when CD was becoming the mainstream hard medium to record music onto.

It would have been ludicrous as a business model, to produce an expensive base model TT, and hope the CD option would not be selected in place of of a expensive TT.

It made much more sense to produce a very affordable TT, which a Belt Drive lens itself to favourably as a design.

Once the TT is in the hands of a New Owner, the real monies are to be accrued through hammering the idea home, that the owned TT is an inferior model unless it is to receive a selection of specific upgrades.

Look at all TT's competing for the same customers from the era of CD becoming the household replay medium.

The endless offering and suggestions of available upgrades, upcoming upgrades was the norm. The media loved a scoop on the next 'add on', the customer spent endless hours in dreamland believing the next plateau of uber HiFi was at their fingertips.

The lucrative side of this market has been so beneficial to Companies, those that are still involved, are using the strategy today for their increased ranges of products that are made available. Their are no shortage of customers, that are sure the upgrade path is a value for money path, and will buy into it with a blind knowledge of the performance and SQ on offer.

Now that is an exceptional influence for any business to have over an individual, especially with the individual showing a willingness to blindly believing the hype, and paying monies readily without reservation to learn the truth, WOW !

The Upgrade Options from certain Brands on their TT Models, Power Supply, Motor Controller, same brand Tonearms and in some cases same brand Cartridges is for some the future plan for their purchases, there is a pride in being able to aspire to follow a path, that the Brand Owners will quite happily imply is a route to Upgrading and Uber High Fidelity.

I have met with the Sales Teams of competing Brands, on many occasions over quite few years in my earliest days of HiFi, with the use of media and contact with a sales team, the purchase of such a TT born from the era was inevitable.

These Companies become very aggressive in their Marketing, placing very well groomed Individuals in prominent positions at events ot fronto of house at retailers adorned in Companies Branding, with a sole purpose of ensnaring the individuals making a general inquiry or expressing a casual interest, and then the follow up, where using what would be referred to as a pressure sale approach that was used by many organisations during the 80's and 90's.

I stand by the fact I purchased a Linn TT back in this era.

For me though, it did not take too long to realise I had bought a TT that was a result of a pressurised decision, the TT Upgrade path was not for me, I was not inspired to maintain this mainstream marketing model.

I was fortunate to have discovered other TT's and really reap the benefits by side stepping the mainstream.

My whole experience in HiFi and building a home system for more than 20 Years is built around side stepping the mainstream, and I am happy with the outcome.         

@markcooperstein How much credence do you give to the members above who have last owned the Linn LP12 forty years ago and are 100% sure that the current Linn LP12 is a poor choice?

Kind of like saying I owned a Ford Mustang in the 70’s and it really is exactly like the 2022 Ford Mustang, which is a lot more money and not worth the price, because my 70’s Mustang was not a great car.

I've always seen LP12's as a giant money pit with 'upgrades' that are actually 'fixes'.  I have an all original Heybrook TT2 built in 1984 with an LVX tonearm.  I've auditioned other tables at home with whatever cart I'm currently using (AT33PTG/II since Christmas) and in the end I end up keeping the Heybrook.  

The last comparison was a Rega Planar 3 and Ania cart.  After a month and a half they were gone.

What's bad?

Stolen design? (AR, Thorens td150, Ariston)

A giant money pit?

Unauthentic timbre?

Dodgy top plates on pre 2000 models?

Needs regular specialist servicing?

Motor mounting issues?

Needs a better arm than the Ittok?

Temporal anomalies?

Outdated design?

Uncompetitively priced?

 

All true in my experience.

 

So what's good about it?

An audiophile icon?

Better bandwidth than budget decks?

Neverending upgrade options?

 

Also true in my experience.

 

So what's the problem then?

 

I believe that its crucial problem is the way that the subchassis is balanced on top of 3 compressed springs, each of them bearing a different load.

Therefore the heavy platter is free to drift over time. Remember that the rather flimsy belt and the pliable arm cable is working with the  springs in keeping the platter/subchassis in position.

 

Whichever way you look at it, it's not a particularly secure way of keeping it there, is it?

Yes, you can use it without an optimal setup, but if you do, it's a very ordinary sounding deck that way.

Very.

To keep its lovely air and bloom, the suspension must be optimised.

And therein lies it's main problem.

 

There's a good video here showing how it's built.

Make of it what you will.

 

 

 

 

@cd318   Says the man who doesn't even own a turntable, never mind a Linn!

Keep going, I'm beginning to enjoy this--;0)

I own a Linn.  The design is about as basic as you get.  It does not have the flash some of the new models I've seen for sale.  But, as for sound output and with the right cartridge and pre-amp, it competes with anything.  I've done upgrades from time to time over the years, and my edition doesn't come close to the cost of what you would pay for a new one.  But I have a majority of what the new ones have to offer.  Anyone can buy an old LP12 for relatively low cost, and upgrade the key components and have a very nice table.  I love mine.  As a comparison, its analog output competes with my SACD play.  

I’ve heard various LP-12s over the years and even lived with one for a while. It is an exceptional table and its biggest fault is that it is deceptively simple. That’s why so many underestimate it. But make no mistake, the LP-12 is capable of outstanding sound when properly set up in the right system. My personal preference is for a much higher mass table, but I have nothing but respect for the Linn.

Linn has its hard core detractors, similar to McIntosh, and I’ve never understood their motivation. What’s the value of expending energy on something you don’t like?

"deceptively simple" 

Perfect description;

@daveyf

 

+1.

 

@uncleang Seiously? “I’ve always seen LP12’s as a giant money pit with ’upgrades’ that are actually ’fixes’”

Refinement marches on. Over the last fifty years I have pursued high end audio and the changes have been truly amazing. Linn has shown they have what it takes to sell something high end with integrity. Like Leica and Nikon… invest with them and they will support you. The company will bring you along as they assault the state of the art, if you want to go with them. Linn has dedicated themselves to a really good design and improve, improve, and improve endlessly. I have seen this technique, time after time used by the Japanese: for instance used in the design of Namiki Fountain Pens. Classic design with every aspect refined over and over again to achieve perfection. Try one, one of the best three companies in the world producing fountain pens.

My friend and audio dealer talks about the Linn turntables he has “repaired from dealer setup”. Where carefully designed 3D washers are installed upside down, springs, mixed up…the deck not remotely leveled.

The contemporary Linn is an incredibly refined and sophisticated turntable. It’s incredible small size and this sophistication requires someone that can read English to set it up. After that, it needs no one to touch it for years. Any finickiness of forty years ago is long gone.

 

The ability to upgrade a great sounding <$5K deck to a world class performing turntable is a huge benefit not a shortfall.

Someone compared an AR turntable to a Linn… seriously? There is and has been no comparison. I owned an AR in about 1980, then added a VPI Aries in about 1987… there is no comparison in SQ between the AR and the Linn. The Linn is and always has been leagues above the AR. The background noise, of the AR is horrible… dynamics are equally poor. 

I was the one who compared (among other tables better than either) my AR to the Linn. AR Xa. Merrill subchassis. Merrill motor and power supply. Jelco arm. Grado green. Agree no comparison to Linn / Ittok / troika. AR superior. Doesn’t have the snob appeal tho

Some of the most musical sonics from a TT setup, I have experienced with an LP12. Not the most accurate but not too off to sound wrong. The ones I liked were fitted with Aro/ Cirkus/ Lingo2/ Helikon and another one with the latest SME/Keel/Radikal/Kandid.

Both different but gets to the heart of the music in the first place. Not many modern TTs can claim that btw.

 

If you want to see LP12 samples in the wild then this thread on the Naim forum is worth a look. There is a long established friendly (mostly) rivalry between Linn and Naim fans, especially in the UK. But this shows the level of support this table has.

Folks can dump on this kit all they want but the fact is this the LP12 is a rare popular 50-year-old survivor in a battlefield littered with many fancy eye candy turntable companies that burst on the scene but went kaput…