Thoughts on the Linn LP12 turntable

@itsjustme  Appropriate moniker, as it really is just you who hears the AR as superior!

And it is also true that an LP12 can sound very ordinary to outstanding depending on the way it is kitted out and setup

In a shootout at one of the London's audio store the fully kitted LP12 bested an Avid Acutus. Many listeners in the room preferred the LP12. So it is not an easy TT to dismiss even in the latest context

Was the  Avid Acutus set up on the exact same mounting system ?

Were the same Cart's and downstream System used for both Sources ?

It would even be off interest to know if the invited to the demonstration were not specially selected for their allegiance to a Brand ? 

There are practices used that are quite useful as methods of swinging  a presentation favourably toward a particular device.  

Sorry for my cynicism, I got out/escaped from the Dealership and HiFi Magazine  Lions Den, way too many years ago, and 'did not go back for my hat'. 

I should add (but its too late to edit!) that while Linn Comes out 3/3 in my above comparison, that dopes not make it anything less than musical. Set up is critical, as with any analog device. Its voicing is "polite" - somewhat soft. But always enjoyable. So i was saying really four things i my several posts above:

1, All the suspended, belt drive tables have merits

2. the Linn is far from alone - there are tons of them

3. Many of them are in fact better than the linn

4. Yet the Linn is still an excellent table, if set up right

Note that the span in construction (and price) of Linns is huge and of course, one can;t really separate the tab;e from the arm and cartridge when evaluating sonics.

Yet its clear that the trend is to servo-controlled Direct Drive and to MASSIVE but unsuspended tables. Mass = good.

G

@pindac , everything was same as far as I remember except, the Linn was paired with its own Urika phono and Avid was paired with Avid Pulsare 2 phono. Also the tonearms were both SME but Linn had its own Ekos SE tonearm made by SME and Avid had an SME V. Both TTs used stuff as recommended/matched by their manufacturers Or lets say as most people would use it.

The Lynn LP12 is flimsy cheaply implemented table that’s Rates as midfi gear. Compared to the class A standards is laughable. It’s no better than an old AR table.

@jew16384   LOL, you are so right--the nasty knock off Lynn is exactly as you describe!

Such a horrible overrated product!  Must be nice to still be the reference that others are compelled to compare to after many years.

@daveyf

IMHO, basically polishing a turd for 50 years. And yes, I've owned one and have worked on several others.

@mapman +1

BTW I’m not dumping on the Linn. Nor saying the AR -- as is -- is great.

But the basic design of the AR may be superior - if the key parts are upgraded. The inter-locking pieces of the spindle/center/platter than cancel resonances is magic. but you need a new bearing and thrust doohickey (various types). The arm was crap. The motors were only "decent" 60 years ago, and parts unobtanium. Mine has all those machined and fixed.

My LP12 OTOH is far from latest. Maybe 15-20 years old. So the latest motor control, latest arm boards (far more rigid and dead) are not part of the package. And yet it too is musical in its way - but less dynamic than the AR and less detail too. Or at least mine, as it stands today.

But those who have not heard a proper AR are missing a great. At least for the money invested, which including arm, subchassis, bearing, motor, motor power supply, cart/bah blah is probably $1k-$1300 all in. Some assembly required.

An LP 12 setup like mine can be found, used, in good condition for $1100-$1700 too. Or could be when i picked up mine, mostly as a spare.

And lets face it - tables are only as good as setup and few have the time, patience and skill to set them up right, so much is academic.

Frankly, I don’t think the OP gives 2 f**ks about the Linn. Just my opinion, I could be wrong. 

Well, my perspective of Linn is different from all those who put down the LP12. I’m sure at the klimax level and cost there are better and worst sounding table, being more or less expensive. I have a LP12 since 1982 and paid 1400$ canadian $...At that time this was fair considering the low CAN$ value. In the 30 plus years I had that turntable it is pretty much amortise so I would consider value at 0$. I have bought a Kore sub, and a Karousel bearing. Total cost 2200$. Well for 2200$ I basicaly have a new turntable at a much superior sound level that what I had. Don’t know what I could have bought for that price and if it would have sounded better. Honestly I don’t care. Very please with my 2200$ Linn. Could not have done that with my old Technic or TD125. Now have a LP12 kore ittok karousel. added a used lingo in the 90. Almost at Akurate level for not much money. Would I pay 10000$ today for a Akurate Linn....no I don’t have those funds. But 2000$ to bring mine to a second life,,,yes I was lucky to have bought a LP12 in the early 80,s.

One of my friends swore blind that his LP12 was the mutts nuts, especially after every upgrade he purchased. As others have said it was a money pit, Ivor Tiefenbrun was a genius marketeer who could sell ice to Eskimos! But the hype and sales BS eventually wore thin, I’m still using a 1964 Garrard 401 that beats a Linn hands down!

As commented on throughout the thread.

There are quite a few options to consider as an alternative TT, as a selection of the contributors have pointed to.

There are also a few long term owners who can't separate from their TT, and are expressing their content with the maintaining the use of the TT.

I am a long term owner, that has not been too inspired to use the TT over many years, the TT will become a handed down to a Grandchild along with some other owned TT's and ancillaries, from little Acorn's grow Mighty Oaks.

If the G'children showed a keenness to experience the Vinyl Set Ups that are available, that could potentially give some of my owned a Albums a service life of +50 years and then who knows the extension of their usage into the Century.

Not Bad for Albums that were a few £'s when new.      

@garylb   +1.

One thing we always hear from the naysayers and denigrators of the Linn is when asked to name another table that has the ability to be updated over time is this...dead silence! LOL.

There are many TT's that can be upgraded, it is a matter of how the upgrade is looked at.

Plinth Materials that are offering a improvement in comparison to the original selected material, where the improvement in stability of the alternative plinth material is much improved across different environments. It is quite common to see such items offered for sale.

A Tonearm or Cartridge is a simple and effective upgrade for a TT with these  ancillaries that are limited in their function.

Improved Synchronised Motors are commonly seen available, with a function that offers a very tight tolerance for speed stability.

There are rethinks on Platter Spindle Bearings as well, where a different bearing assembly can be exchanged to replace a original design.

In some cases even the Platter Material is offered in an alternative material to the originals design.

Linn have excelled at offering their own Branded Add On Ancillaries, steering their customers away from considering the comparative devices on offer from competitors.

There are options to upgrade most TT's, the search for the method will be a little broader that selecting a sale item offered by a Brand to be used with their own Brand TT.         

Don't they come with McIntosh gear in a retro package?

@pindac  An ongoing upgrade path of the original design and by the same manufacturer??

Its best to Google the Upgrade options for the LP 12 the subject matter keeps the Google Pages well informed of the variety of options that are on offer from third party services.

The Linn marketing strategy has made this viable, as the ambition of the average Linn Deck user, is that a upgrade is a must, talk about the power of marketing on a psyche.

Has not Linn in the past produced an inferior base deck ??,  to enable a so called upgrade path purchase to have a recognisable influence on the presentation.

If I were to offer a host of items as a route to a upgrade I certainly would need to consider what is required in the base model to make these exchanges seem a viable route to an improvement. 

@pindac I guess you believe that the only reason to update something is because it is inferior to start with? Perhaps, the reason for the updates is because over time Linn has been able to improve the platform due to technological and cost saving benefits? ( not because it was sub-par to begin with) Maybe you believe that stagnation is the way to go when it comes to this hobby...?? So, no, Linn has not produced an inferior base deck from the beginning, just a deck that can be upgraded as time passes and the technology allows..

This is, IMHO, one of the biggest strengths of this platform, it does not restrict you to the performance level that so many other non-upgradeable turntables do ( many of which are far more costly!)..and instead allows for performance improvements as either a) your budget allows and/or b) they come technologically feasible.

I certainly don't lean towards stagnation, I am aware of how technologies have evolved and become quite beneficial to be applied to a TT and supporting ancillaries, to the point where I have a Source equipment that has adopted modern technologies as a fundamental in the design.

The owned Linn TT is one that I have not been inspired by to consider a adoption of modern technologies to attempt to attain a different performance, it is the TT that is the least used from the selection of owned TT's.

My infrequent use of the owned Linn TT does not leave me without a regular experience of it in use. Within the Local HiFi Club a Members has one with a selection of upgrades, this same person also owns a heavily modified Thorens Model a Lenco GL 75 and a Technics SP10 R as their main deck.

Prior to the SP 10R the GL 75 had become their main in use TT, I have heard all TT's in comparison to the GL 75 and later all TT's including the GL 75 in comparison to the SP10 R.

I don't recall anything on offer from the Linn performance that was encouraging a positive appraisal from any of the attendees.

I was at another Club Members home, who has dedicated their main Source usage to CD. This member has been a host on many occasions and has heard many of the Clubs TT's, which range from a SME 20, Mitchell Orbe, SP10 R, SP10 MkII, Garrard 401, PTP Solid Nine, GL75, used within their system, as there has been many opportunities to carry out demonstrations of Phonostages and this system is one commonly used for the audition on days when they host. 

The club member was interested in being demonstrated the Linn TT in their system on a day they were to host a meeting. The Linn owner obliged and enabled this to happen, bringing along their complete LP Replay Source with the Lin TT.

I was able to be present and had in hand, my usual selection of LP's and Platter Mats to make available.

The Linn did not impress, it was difficult to even suggest it was making any kind of a positive impression, as it was presenting in a manner very different from the memory of other TT's used within the same system.

To try and discover if a little improvement was to be discovered, I suggested a period of exchanging Platter Mats and one was discovered to improve on the performance, which I gifted to the Linn owner.

I have not witnessed anything over +25 years that would encourage myself to spend more money on a Linn TT than I have already parted with. 

With my own Linn, I am happy to occasionally use it, the experience always ends up the same, I am happy to own it, it was a first entry into a long term hobby in maintaining a LP Source. I am also quite happy to put it back into storage, and make way, to have more time for experiencing the other TT's available and much preferred when used.               

@daveyf

+1

The audio technology of the 1970’s and now are like the slide rule compared to a super computer for calculations. Every aspect of high end audio have fundamentally and profoundly improved over the last fifty years. Linn is one of the prospering companies because they continued to do research and development and push the high end… like companies like Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Sonus Faber, Wilson. Look at the phone in 1970… look at the phone in your hand… an iPhone? Look at the difference… that represents progress… high end audio is very much like that.

I can’t imagine what a fantastic deal it would have been had I bought my LP12 in the 1970’s and been able to upgrade it periodically to be able to have the incredible performance I get today from my contemporary LP12. The sound I get is really amazing.

Also, I have had time to spend with Linn’s DACs and Streamers… wow. Over the last ten years or so… they have really gotten it together as a high end company. 

This thread reminds me of many Leica camera threads.

I have been a long time Nikon owner since the 70’s. Top of the line stuff for that last 20 years. I bought a Leica M10.

The Leica M series often reputed as the best camera of its format. Forums posts endlessly claiming them over priced anachronism/ best camera in the world. Much about “The Leica Look”. Often described as the analog look.

I shot my M10 for over a year as I worked on figuring out exactly what made it different. At long last I was able to describe exactly what it was about its rendering that was unique and exceptional. Folks with decades of experience with Leica generally agreed with me.

There is no question most of the very best photos I have ever taken are with that camera. It results in superior output to Nikon and Canon for many purposes (general photography / with aesthetics as the objective). The Leica lenses and M10 is a marvelous and exceptional camera. Linn LP12 reminds me of this. It gets a lot of criticism often from folks that have had incidental or not optimal exposure. But what propels the brand is its exceptional performance. My LP12 performs much like my Leica M10.

@ghdprentice +1

I think one of the issues that Linn has to deal with is the same as what Leica has to deal with, that is they are an old brand that has been lauded for many years. As such, there are folks who, like you stated, have limited experience with the product but at some point in time had a little exposure. These folks are now convinced that the limited experience with the product makes them cognoscenti and able to state denigrating remarks.

I have been impressed with the Linn LP12 since I acquired mine, back in the 80’s. What I have not done is try to compare my original 80’s model with an upgraded model from the present. Instead, I have taken the opportunity to avail myself of the upgrades as they came into budget and realized that these were indeed--upgrades.

Is the Linn LP12 the best table at any price, no i do not think so! I believe Linn’s insistence on attempting to combine an arm of their design with the table (this arm has grown way past its sale by date), has resulted in it being passed over by more advanced arm designs and a few other tables. Albeit, all of the competing designs that i believe are superior are also considerably more expensive.

The basic Linn LP12 platform still holds excellent value and great potential, I am just hoping that Linn can see their way to replace the old war horse Ekos-SE design with something far more SOTA.

@pindac 

"The Linn marketing strategy has made this viable, as the ambition of the average Linn Deck user, is that a upgrade is a must, talk about the power of marketing on a psyche."

The Cult of Linn was at its Zenith in the 1980s.

Nowadays there's just a few diehard cultists left.

Everyone else has long jumped ship for a better value, more fuss free, more long term consistent and less bullshit hyped turntable.

Thankfully even Linn have abandoned their once notorious brand of advertising.

That kind of nonsense just won't wash these days.

If it wasn't for the innumerably bewildering, endlessly milkable upgrade options I suspect even Linn would have dropped the LP12.

Just for the record, has anyone bothered to compare the original basis LP12 to the top of the range 2022 model in order to assess exactly what a gazillion bottomless moneypit upgrades have actually achieved?

I wouldn't be surprised if many Linn owners found a decent non Linn arm and stuck with that. The harshness of the Ittok was one of the reasons I sold mine.

It was either that or cough up even more cash for an Ekos or the even better but more fiddly Naim Aro.

A unipivot on a 3 point suspended turntable is not for everyone.

@cd318 Seems very obvious that you yourself have not bothered to answer the question that you ask in your third paragraph...namely: ’has anyone bothered to compare the original LP12 to the top of the range 2022 model in order to assess exactly what a gazillion bottomless money pit upgrades have actually achieved?’...

because IF you had done this you would not be posting the drivel that you do!

@daveyf 

+1

@daveyf

"because IF you had done this you would not be posting the drivel that you do!"

"Drivel", is that how you feel about your constant need to defend your beloved LP12?

Seriously? 

Well then, perhaps you could suggest to us exactly how we should go about making that all important comparison between vintage and new LP12s?

Right now it appears tough enough to get to hear any LP12 of any vintage.

[You wouldn't just happen to know of any accomodating dealers now, would you?]

Me, I can't ever recall even seeing one at a show.

Linn, unlike Thorens, Rega, Roksan, Pro-Ject and quite a few others have never seemed to have had any interest in demonstrating their turntable as far as I know.

Perhaps they don't travel too well?

Or could it be the hours and hours of delicate setup that's the issue?

Or maybe it's the lack of specialist personnel, and their hourly rates that's the real problem here?

Whatever it is, this unseemly reticence on the part of Linn does seem strange when I can remember one London show where we got to see the fabled Continuum Caliburn turntable complete with its out of the world stand.

A little odd, don't you think?

You'd think Linn would be super keen to show off all of their mega expensive 50 year 'improvements', wouldn't you?

Or could it be that they feel they don't need to when they have such good stalwarts such as yourself to act as keepers of their flame.

@markcooperstein , I owned two of them back in the late 70's. Back then they were the best turntable you could get at a reasonable price. Compared to many turntables made today they are archaic and a PITA. There are many sources of resonance in the chassis and tonearm board. The overall construction in second class. The Sota Sapphire is miles ahead of it as are SME tables, Basis tables and Avid tables. The Thorens 1600 is a better table for the money.

@cd318  Since it appears you are in the UK, all you have to do is go over to visit Peter Swain at Cymbiosis and he will be only too pleased to show you the numerous LP12's that he has. If you cannot be bothered to do that, and instead want to continue with the drivel posts...well it is saying a lot!

@mijostyn  Yes, we know the last time that you owned the LP12 was in the 70's...and are 100% sure that nothing has changed since then, LOL.

@daveyf  All they have done is make a burlap sack out of a silk purse. It has become a caricature, a joke. You can never turn a bad execution into a good one. It is a waste of money trying.

@mijostyn  And you would know this how??? The last time you owned the table was in the 70's...which says it all! 

Honestly,  I have to laugh at all the naysayers of the Linn LP12 that seem to just keep regurgitating the same old mis-information.

The LP12 IS a great table!  Why is it perfectly acceptable for other turntable manufacturers to be allowed to make upgrades/improvements to their designs/products (which always leads to increased prices), but not acceptable for the Linn LP12???  I believe it is because some people have a biased hatred toward the LP12, no matter how good it sounds and performs. These people simply will not allow themselves to listen with open ears and minds. And more than likely they don't listen to any of them at all, period.  Their loss, but when they perpetuate this on the forums, it can mislead others and then sadly it becomes their loss as well.

Daveyf made a great point.... spend an afternoon with Peter at Cymbosis.  He is a great man, a true gentleman and an asset to the audiophile community.  Go with an open mind, not with a biased agenda and truly listen.... I think you may come away with a new awareness and appreciation.

I love my LP12.  I am not just an audiophile, but I am also a musician, playing the tenor and bass trombones in jazz venues and my Montagnana cello in classical venues.  I have a great ear for tone, pitch, intonation, timing etc. and if anything is "off" it would drive me absolutely crazy!

I can say that my LP12 keeps incredible speed which is one of the most important tasks of any turntable!  It is incredibly transparent!  I can easily hear the difference in cables, swapping of vacuum tubes, the difference in record pressings, etc. It has great tone, micro and macro dynamics and detail... but all in a very natural and organic way, just as I hear in live acoustic music.... which I hear several times a week!  

I can just hear mijostyn saying... this is blasphemy!  For crying out loud, he is using a uni-pivot for God's sake.  Yes, I'm using the Naim ARO with my Benz Ruby S Zebra Wood cartridge, and it is sublime!

Years ago, there was a Linn Dealer in Chicago.  They had several LP12's set up in their showroom that allowed us to compare the difference in sound between the Valhalla and Lingo power supplies, the Ittok/Ekos tonearms, etc and you could easily hear the differences.  I was also able to compare the differences with the Naim ARO to the Linn Arms and the Naim power supply to the Linn supplies as well as the Pink Triangle DC supplies.  If the LP12 was such a wreck of a table, I shouldn't been able to hear any differences, but the differences were huge and important.

When people say that the LP12 is too fussy to set up and always needs to be fiddled with.... total BS.  Set it up right and it stays right!

There are a lot of happy people with Linn LP12's....  Why don't you hear more from them on these forums??? Because they are too busy spinning vinyl and enjoying their music collection to be bothered with this nonsense dribble!!!

So, in closing.... These are great times for us vinyl lovers!  There are many great tables, arms, cartridges  and phono stages to be had.  Go out and listen with an open mind - without any set bias and I think you will find that the LP12 can present music in a very enjoyable and moving way.

Best wishes to all!  Now, it's time for me to get back to my listening enjoyment :)

Don

Linn LP12/Naim ARO/Benz RubyS Zebrawood, Wavestream Kinetics Reference Level 5.1 Phono, Presence Audio Line Stage, Bel Canto SET40 Single Ended 845 Triodes, Dunlavy SCIV's Signature Loudspeakers, lifetime supply of NOS Mullards, Tele's, etc for all of my tubed equipment.

“Drivel”, not “dribble”.

Otherwise, admirable for conviction.

@no_regrets   +1000

As a former pro studio musician, i totally agree with all that you state about the tonal acuity and the detail retrieval in regards to the sounds of live acoustic music. 

To my ears, the speed accuracy is excellent, particularly with the Radikal D power supply and motor. 

@lewm  Yes, you are absolutely correct.  I should remember not to post on forums when I'm overtired 🤣.  Thank you for the correction.

Best wishes,

Don

Could be that some of the older naysayers are in fact dribbling! --;0)

@daveyf , I have taken apart LP 12s down to the last screw. I have made custom bases for them. Relative to other turntables out there it is built like a Chinese music box. I would even take any VPI turntable over it. Do yourself a favor and ditch it. Get a VPI Scout just don't take the tonearm. There is no amount of silly upgrading that is going to make the LP12 even a class C turntable. I'm am really sorry if I hurt your feelings but you are not going to make me back away from the truth. If the LP 12 was the last turntable on earth I would stick to digital. If you can't afford a better turntable you should do the same.

“ IMHO, basically polishing a turd for 50 years. And yes, I've owned one and have worked on several others.“

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Pretty much this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

It seems some detractors may want to dribble LP12s, in fact.  (I’m on the sidelines in this discussion. Never owned one.)

@mijostyn The statement that you apparently have taken apart LP12’s, but last owned one in the 70’s..says even more about the drivel you post in regards to this turntable. My feelings are in no way hurt, but perhaps you are dribbling??---:0)

I am plenty happy with my LP12- next yer will be my 25th year owning it. Anyone who says the LP12 easily drifts out of adjustment has not had experience with an LP12 in at least 30 years. Frankly, one of the more remarkable improvements over the years to the LP12 was relatively recently- the Karousel bearing. And as it costs less than what many spend on a cartridge, yeah, it’s a great addition to the LP12.

No one is saying keeping an LP12 in current form is cheap. It’s not. But a great deal of high end audio gear isn’t cheap either.

What I don’t understand is why so many get butt hurt by the fact that a number of us really like our LP12’s. Shall we argue about ice cream flavors next?

@no_regrets 

Don, thanks. I completely agree. 

@daveyf , all you have left are insults? Common davey boy, how about that cheap stamped sheet metal sub chassis sitting atop three springs tuned to the wrong frequency and the crappy Masonite arm board flapping around in the breeze, the two piece platter that rings like a bell. The tiny little dink of a motor that I can stall with a Q tip. Then there is that pathetic sort of wood base stapled together at the corners. Walmart wouldn't sell a turntable like that. If you think that is representative of a high end turntable in this day and age you are in the wrong forum. You might look into basket weaving. And for your information I built a cherry base for one thirteen years ago.

You can insult me all you want but that will not change the fact that the LP 12 is archaic and interesting only from a historic perspective. It's days have long passed. It was all but done in 1980 with the release of the original SOTA Sapphire. Over the next decade a pile of them were dumped into the used market where they could be picked up for pennies on the dollar by people like you who want to turn them into some kind of panacea. They are just an old turntable that the vast majority of serious audiophiles wouldn't go near. 

@mijostyn

"cheap stamped sheet metal sub chassis sitting atop three springs tuned to the wrong frequency and the crappy Masonite arm board flapping around in the breeze, the two piece platter that rings like a bell. The tiny little dink of a motor that I can stall with a Q tip. Then there is that pathetic sort of wood base stapled together at the corners."

Err... yes. That more or less sums it up.

I was going to post a link to Peter Swain’s 4 hour Cymbiosis LP12 set up guide (seeing as how @daveyf was kind enough to suggest paying him a visit) but unfortunately those clips seem to have strangely disappeared off the internet.

A real pity, since long term stability concerns have continuously plagued this deck ever since it's inception.

Oh well, since Leicester is fairly central, the next time I’m passing I might just drop by Cymbiosis.

Especially as it seems even Linn themselves have now given up the ghost in promoting their one time highly lucrative cash cow.

@mijostyn … You are a modern day Hans Christian Andersen,