Thoughts on the Linn LP12 turntable
I don’t see many discussions that include the Linn Sondek LP12 turntable and was wondering why? They’ve been around since the late 70’s and other then power supply and a few other minor changes (IMO) are relatively unchanged. I had one in the early 80’s and another in the late 90’s. They are somewhat finicky to get setup correct and once you do, they sound great. That being said I know there have been a lot better designs to come out since the LP12’s hey-day. Are they worth considering anymore or has the LP12 just become another audio vintage collectors item?
@zavato Great question! Why is it that mijostyn and others who have to denigrate and naysay the LP12 get butt hurt when folk like their LP12? Anyone who last owned the LP12 in the 70’s ( if at all!) has zero credibility with me when it comes to their ’expertise’ on the LP12, and particularly when they comment negatively on the updates and/or the current models. Zero. |
This is not being a 'naysayer'. It is about an experience of replaying a LP, ones which have a significant influence when being experienced. In relation to the owned Linn TT, It is a bonafide report on how a use 1990's era version of the TT stimulates the senses and emotions when used to replay a LP. The resulting influence is quite clear, the Ownership is pleasant and produces a happiness, due to the sentiment around the TT. The decision made to not use the TT continuously, also produces a feel good factor, where there is a happiness, to see it be put into storage and make way for other TT's to be used, that have for myself proven to be preferred as a tool to replay LP's. Especially in being able to produce a connection with the stored content that adds to the stimulus during the replay. As said, the Linn TT, will one day be gifted to a Grandchild, so there must be some type of value seen in it from my end. |
As a person with no opinion, my observation is that both groups are guilty of taking the pro and con arguments personally, not just the negative side. If one wanted to defend Linn’s upgrade policy, one could say that other companies follow a similar path, except each succeeding set of improvements to the base product is given a new name and touted as a new improved product, at a higher price point. On the other hand, some of the LP12 upgrades, including those that stiffen the structure or upgrade the bearing, were not unknown in the 70s. It appears that compromises were originally made in favor of low or mid-market cost. My impression is that the original was built to a price point and that the subsequent upgrades were introduced to enhance the ranking of the product to compete with much more ambitious efforts from others. Linn was moving the product perception from “mass market” to “upscale”. |
@lewm I am unaware of any table from the past, except for the LP12, that has been continually modified over time to compete with the current crop of ’ambitious efforts from others’. To me, this is one of the biggest benefits of LP12 ownership, the consumer will not have to move away from the basic platform and thereby incur loss of investment in order to update the platform. I don’t think you can say that about very many pieces of gear in this hobby, if any. I take no personal feelings from this discussion one way or the other, I do happen to believe that if one has no experience with the current product and subject of this thread, then putting in one’s 2 cents is very disingenuous, at best. IMHO. |
In relation to a TT, The perfect function, in relation to the mechanics and electrics, of any device and ancillaries, does not equate to a user experience that will be attractive and enjoyed by all who encounter such a level of function. It is the same for a TT and ancillaries that are with identifiable shortcomings in the area of mechanics and electrics, for some, and most likely a large proportion of users who encounter such a TT, it will not equate to a user experience that has an attraction or is enjoyed. The is no right or wrong way to meet the middle ground and above where there is a condition present, that does create an attraction and enjoyment for the user. What is the goal of the investigation? Is one looking of the LP replay that is most engaging and stimulating? Is one looking for the outcome, where they feel there choices, have produced the most accurate assembly to allow for the optimisation function of the entirety of the parts? There are some who go on a quest to discover something that is new and notable, where just a simple change of a drive mechanism is enough, or an alternative drive mechanism or change of an ancillary has been adequate and improved over the others that have been experienced prior to any new experiences. I myself have been an individual who has shared in the former description of a experience. I have also been an individual who has shared for a longer duration in the latter description of a experience. There are the types who will require a whole lot of interrogating a set up for a TT, adding and removing Support Structures, Drive Mechanisms and Ancillaries, to find their attractor and place of enjoyment. For these types, their is always an analysis not too far away, as well as a judgement. What really matters in the end is not ones personal journey and experiences encountered, but how they accept the experiences of others, it is quite important to embrace another's notification, that they have discovered their happy place with the use of certain TT and ancillaries. The search does need to have an end, it is not necessary for it to be continuous. Some will not wish to go on to reach such endeavours that others have, and are in my view quite fortunate to have settled contentedly with their made discoveries. I have been sharing in the journey's of others and their experiences as seen on Lenco Heaven, where some contributors are totally content with a Basic Model, maybe a little TLC and a aesthetic change, others are content to settle with a Serviced Model and through to where there are to be seen a complete rethink for the mounting of the original parts to function as a TT. What is witnessed on LH, is nothing new and can be seen as comparative trend with other Drives and Brands of TT's, albeit, maybe with a little less DIY involved to produce the changes being made. In no way am I implying there is anything lacking in the choices made, it is great that individuals have found a place of enjoyment and stimulus that offers a happiness, without needing to extend to the lengths that others have gone on to, over a long period of time with much fiddling. Not everybody needs to be adorned with the appraisal offered for winning a Grand Prix, to be able to claim their driving is a 'Job Well Done'. |
As I had eluded to in my earlier post... I think that we (as vinyl lovers) should all feel extremely blessed that we have such a plethora of tables/arms/cartridges/phono stages available to us at virtually every price point that allows almost any music lover the ability to spin records and enjoy their music collection. I believe that there is an awful lot that goes into making a system reproduce the recorded music in an enjoyable way. Notice, I said "system". It’s so much more than just a turntable. It’s having a power supply that can keep a steady speed and stable pitch. It’s finding an arm that complements said table as well as matches your cartridge. It’s finding a phono stage that does an admirable job of amplifying that tiny little signal and that can pass it along to your pre and amplifier as unmolested as possible so that your loudspeakers can transduce it all into something that can immerse yourself and touch your soul in a very special way. I have a very large collection of records, recorded in both mono and stereo. My LP12 only accommodates one arm and I have my Benz Ruby Zebrawood cartridge mounted to it. I’ve been contemplating lately of adding another table to my system... using one table for mono and the other for stereo. So, I went to my local audio dealer to have a listen to what they might have - with open ears and an open mind. I listened to the AMG Viella Forte 12 Turbo ( $30,000 for just the table and arm ); Lyra Atlas Lambda cartridge ($12,000); SimAudio 610LP solid state phono ($8500) - this was being used as their Audio Research Ref3SE was currently out on home audition; Audio Research Reference 6SE tubed linestage ($18,000); Audio Research Reference 160S Stereo tubed amplifier ($22,000); all feeding the Sonus Faber Olyimpica Nova III ($15,000) all totaling roughly $106,000 before sales taxes!!! We spent the afternoon spinning various records ranging from jazz ballades to hard bop, to big band, to classical. A great range of recordings, all hand selected by the salesman. So, how did it sound??? I felt that the AMG Forte, Turbo Arm and cartridge did a great job of keeping the speed stable, had good drive and dynamics - kept my foot tapping 😀. However, listening to the entirety of the system as a whole.... I was underwhelmed. It sounded like a relatively good stereo system, but nothing more. It didn’t touch my soul.... it didn’t move me in an emotional way... it didn’t make me think - Damn, I’ve gotta have this!!! It didn’t do anything to make me feel like I wanted to stay there and keep listening for hours and hours. I came home and started spinning selections from my collection. Wowza!!! My system just keeps drawing me in! It sounds like the musicians are here with me... 3 dimensional, living and breathing, flesh and blood performing just for me!!! It gets right at my emotions and truly touches my soul. It’s dynamic, the sound is full, natural, and organic. My system keeps me listening for several hours on end making me want to pull out record after record... to the point that my wife is yelling to me "...are you going to come up to bed???" Isn’t this what it’s all about??? I can say without a doubt, it is for me!!! Granted, I didn’t listen to the AMG combo in "my" system. Would it perform well in my system? Probably. Would it do better than my LP12 rig in my system? Maybe? BUT, and this is a BIG BUT..... Do I feel I need it to do any better than my LP12 rig??? Absolutely not!!! I am in absolute BLISS right now listening to my "system" even with what some of the forum Linn haters would say is nothing more than a "polished turd”; “ the Linn LP12 is a flimsy cheap implemented table that Rates as midi gear. Compared to the class A standards is laughable;” …. and yet, I feel like I’m in heaven and having the time of my life right now. How can this be??? Is it all in my head? Am I a delusional cultist? Is it just me that could possible garner this much enjoyment from this analog rig? Clearly, I’m not the only one as was testified by Pani, "the LP12 bested the AVID Acutus by the ears of many listeners. Herb Reichert said the Linn LP12 compared favorably to his Dr. Feickert and others and seemed to feel it was still at the upper echelon of performance! Go take a visit over to the Naim forum and you’ll see many people who love the LP12. So, why didn’t the above $106,000 system not move me? I’m not saying it was the AMG table/arm that was at fault at all. Maybe the cartridge didn’t transduce the signal to “my" liking? Maybe the Simaudio 610LP, while reportedly is good sounding for a solid state design seemed a little too threadbare or two-dimensional to me… it could have been anything or a number of things. That’s why I said earlier… getting enjoyable sound reproduction is so much more than just the table. it takes a whole entire system/room/recording etc to get the job done. My LP12 rig definitely gets the job done in MY system and that’s what’s important to me. So, to the Original Poster - If you have an interest in the LP12…. don’t let the naysayers sway you. It’s worth your time to go listen to it with your own ears, with an open mind and judge for yourself. Does it touch your soul and emotions? Does it make you want to rediscover your vinyl collection and listen for hours on end? If it does, great! If not, keep looking and you will find something, as there are a lot of great options out there to be had. Wishing you all the very best, Don P.S. I would also like to add that the above mentioned establishment that I had the pleasure of visiting today was completely AAA+. Very friendly and welcoming. I enjoyed my visit with them very much today. They have excellent products in many price ranges and I would be very happy to purchase from them and I feel blessed to have them so close by.
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Unless I’m mistaken, Ivor Tiefenbaum designed the original LP12 to minimize relative movement between the stylus and the record’s surface. This required identical suspension loading and damping at each corner of the turntable’s platter suspension, a rigid connection between the platter and the arm board, and arm board suspensions which matched the loading and damping of the platter’s. The consequently precise setup procedure requires technical expertise and a model specific jig which are beyond the scope of most audiphiles’ capabilities. I invested ~$7k in a vintage ’90s LP12 equipped with an Akita 3 Tonearm and a Linn Krystal MC cartridge--each designed to complement the ballistics of the other. And the sound quality of my set up is the best I could ever hope for, even compared to current LP playback systems that cost twice as much as mine did. That’s why I agree with a great many audiophiles and published critics that the Linn LP12’s design is timeless, not a relic of the past to be discounted as such. FWIW, I wouldn’t hesitate to make the same (ahem) "mistake" again. BTW: I’m one of those impractical hipsters who actually enjoys the multifaceted ritual of LP playback, notwithstanding the accurate reproduction of the ultrasonic emotional and sound staging cues I hear in live music of which only high-quality analogue systems are capable. But I’m just an old geezer who loves live music more than just about about anything. |
OP, Honestly neither did I. I did a huge amount of research before swapping out my VPI turntable for a new Linn , and have listened to high end tables for years. If you read the professional reviews and listen to contemporary tables the Linn is near or at the top of most price categories in which they compete ($5K - $30K). They have been nearly forever.
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OP. Yes, you are correct... audiophiles can be very passionate about this hobby in many ways.... Vinyl vs Digital Single bit vs Multibit vs NOS Red book vs Hi-Res upsampling CD vs Streaming Belt drive vs Rim drive vs Direct drive Spring loaded vs Mass loaded Unipivot vs Gimbled Pivoted vs Linear tracking Tube vs Solid State Single ended vs push pull vs Class A, A/B, D Full Range vs Floor Standers vs Stand mounted Dynamic vs Panar/Ribbon Speakers Multi Driver vs Single Driver Certainly there are a lot of topics that can be discussed and debated. We all have our own set of ears and we all hear things as we hear things. We all have certain aspects of sound reproduction that are important to us. Whether it is tone, pitch dynamics, soundstage, etc What is important to one, may or may not be important to another. However, with all of the things that we have to discuss... I have rarely found a single product that has been as vocally polarizing as the Linn LP12. As of this post we are basically at 50/50 with 19 members showing appreciation for the LP12 and 20 members who feel that it has been left in the dust. There are a lot of products that are highly touted and are popular. But all too often, in time, many fall out of favor for the next best flavor of the month. Not to mention, go out of business. One thing I can say for sure is that my Linn LP12 has given me many years of musical enjoyment, has been able to continue to improve with various upgrades and has been in business for many decades. Best wishes to all, Don
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Let me chime in as a very happy Linn LP12 user. My "Pandemic Project" was building my own LP12 plinth out of walnut I seasoned for two years, and rebuilding my turntable with a combination of old/new parts. Since the LP12 is, as previously described, "deceptively simple" it takes just a modicum of DIY skills to assemble a LP12. Simple tools, a jig, the ability to follow instructions (thanks Cymbiosis and Basil Audio!), and patience are all that is needed. Therein lies the genius of the LP12 design--and evolution--over the past fifty years: the ability to create a quality turntable to your own unique desires and budget. |
@hipsterjefe So very true! And I'm sure your walnut plinth looks absolutely beautiful! I wish there was an easy way to post pictures on this forum (when it comes to computers I'm somewhat challenged, lol... I'd love to see your finished results 😁 Best wishes, Don |
Great thread, love reading the different opinions and perceptions. The Linn Sondek LP12 has always stirred debate and some controversy.
With that said, if you are in the Kansas City area and want to listen to the latest Linn Sondek LP12 models and options, please schedule a time to visit us. We are thrilled to share our time with you and allow you to experience Linn for yourself.
www.LinnKasa.com |
@in-tone For the denigrating folk who think they know what the new Linn LP12 looks like and sounds like, a visit to LinnKasa would be beneficial. I strongly suspect that these naysayers would have a change of heart, although I also seriously doubt we would hear about that on these forums! |
This is another vote for the LP12 being a great turntable. There is much to like about older models with a judiciously chosen upgrade or two, but the LP12s of 25+ years ago do not sound like those of today, so some perfectly good LP12s are fun but unashamedly imperfect, while others compete with high-end tables like those mentioned here. I still have my LP12, though I have heard a lot of other good tables in the May 30 years-it is only one of many good choices whether spending £3K on a low-spec and/or very second hand version or spending £15K+ plus on an uber-table. The ISP is probably that you can incrementally (and almost invisibly)!turn one into the other. |
I don't see a....."pathetic sort of wood base stapled together at the corners" here with my LP12. 
Nor do I see... "The tiny little dink of a motor that I can stall with a Q tip" here either! 
The one on the left is my current swiss motor, the one on the right is from decades ago. Huge difference! As has been said many times and again... the LP12 has been updated and improved from the decades of old and is quite capable of reproducing very beautiful and emotionally engaging music. And as long as I have finally figured out how to post photos on this forum, here a few pic's of the rest of my system. My Wavestream Kinetics Deluxe Reference Level 5.1 all tube phono stage with outboard power supply... 
And a pic of the rest of this system that utilizes my LP12. But when I really want to "make" music... take note of my cello and one of my trombones in the corner. 
Wishing you all the very best, Don
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No amount of wishful thinking or modification is going to make the LP 12 representative of what a modern intermediate priced turntable can do. The Avid Acutus, SME, Sota and Basis turntables all are definitive improvements over the LP 12. The LP 12's day were done with the release of the original Sota Sapphire, never to return. This is not to say with careful use and setup a used LP 12 can not be made to perform at a reasonable level but to buy one new you have to be out of your mind. This is not IMHO, just a fact of life. |
@mijostyn you say "No amount of wishful thinking or modification is going to make the LP 12 representative of what a modern intermediate priced turntable can do. The Avid Acutus, SME, Sota and Basis turntables all are definitive improvements over the LP 12. The LP 12's day were done with the release of the original Sota Sapphire, never to return." Clearly you didn't bother to read @pani post when he said on 6/26/22 "In a shootout at one of the London's audio store the fully kitted LP12 bested an Avid Acutus. Many listeners in the room preferred the LP12. So it is not an easy TT to dismiss even in the latest context" This was a direct shootout with the Avid Acutus that your have on you list. You also must have missed the post of @krameshmurthy on 6/24/22 when he said.... "I had been using a SOTA Sapphire for many years but found a decently priced used LP12 (circa 1990) last year. As someone who likes to tinker, I took the time to upgrade the motor and control (dual speed) and tune the table. Once I properly installed my cartridge, I was extremely amazed at the how much better this table was than my SOTA- quieter background, phenomenal dynamic range and outstanding soundstage. I do see all the “naysayers” but in my system, the LP12 is staying. I like the fact that I can continue to upgrade it as time goes by. In fairness, I haven’t had any of the newer higher end turntables (don’t have any need at this point), but I wouldn’t dismiss the LP12." Yet again, another comparison to the SOTA Saphire which is also on your list. You might have not noticed when @daveyf said on 6/24/22 "The current LP12 Klimax model had a good review recently by Herb Reichert in Stereophile. Herb compared it favorably to his Dr.Feickert and others and seemed to feel it was still at the upper echelon of performance!" Clearly, for whatever reason, the LP12 has been a very polarizing table over the years. It would seem by simply viewing this thread alone, that there are just as many people who are enamored by the LP12 as there are that are not. Roughly 20 members for and 20 members against, with roughly 8 members that are neutral on the subject. I have never said the Linn LP12 is the "end all / be all" turntable of all tables. However, I and many others do believe that it has come a long way from it's original inception...benefitting from advances in technologies over the years to the top plate, frame, sub-chassis, bearings, motor, power supplies, etc... (just as many other turntable manufacturers have benefitted as well over the years). I, and others, happen to believe the new LP12's can still compare very favorably with the other modern offerings of today. Again, as I have said so many times... we are all blessed to have so many analog choices to choose from in this day and age, from tables/arms/cartridges/phonostages, etc. There are great offerings from many manufacturers at many different price points so that virtually anyone can enjoy their vinyl collections. So, to the OP, what's important is to go out and listen to as many options as possible... but I urge you to do so with an open mind and without any pre-conceived notions, and simply let your ears decide what will work well for you and your system. Best wishes to all, Don
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@no_regrets , you have to be kidding me. I have used them all and the LP 12 is an antique. Its days ended in 1980. As a used turntable it is decent if the price is right. You might as well go out and buy an AR XA. That turntable is way more important from a historical perspective as it invented the genre. The LP 12 is nothing but a higher quality AR XA. It invented nothing. |
@mijostyn It would seem, by your own admission, "....I have used them all and the LP 12 is an antique. Its days ended in 1980." .... that you are still stuck back in 1980 and that with all the improvements and developments that have been implemented over the last 42 years, you seem to refused to believe that the LP12 has advanced beyond that point of over 4 decades ago. Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinions. However, I will put more weight on the opinions of those whom I have quoted in my last post who have actually not only listened to current model LP12's, but have also compared them head to head with well respected modern day alternatives (some of which were on your list, no less) as well as my own ears and judgement. @slaw I, for one, can certainly believe that what your ears heard from your friend's updated LP12 was indeed impressive. I'm glad that you were able to listen with an open mind and without a biased judgement. Best wishes to all, Don |
Thanks @no_regrets . I don't feel any need at all to respond to @mijostyn post. |
@slaw , good move. It was thoughtless and unnecessarily mean. |
@photomax, Sota, the first reasonably priced turntable that definitively out performed the LP 12 is still very much alive and making turntables that are better than the LP 12 and way more advanced in every way. History is littered mostly with Japanese low end turntables of no significance, changers and old idler wheel designs that also continue to be propped up in the used market like the LP 12. The reason I am so harsh on the LP 12 is that there are many turntables on the market that are much easier to deal with and in the end out perform it. This is coming from a guy who only will buy suspended and isolated turntables, who will only use turntables with hinged dust covers and who has owned two of them in the past. It's suspension design is inherently unstable and if it is not on a supremely stable surface it will skip easily. Footfall issues are legion with this turntable. A little bump will cause a skip. It's chassis and plinth are designed to resonate. I do not have any financial skin in this game. My only motive is to prevent people from making the mistake of buying an LP 12. Sota, SME, Basis, Avid and Dohmann make for superior turntables. I own a Sota Cosmos Vacuum. I would love to own a Dohmann but it is a little too pricey for my wallet. The Basis Inspiration is another favorite. The good old Sota Sapphire is in the same price range as the LP12 and there is no comparison. |
Peoples values in sound vary considerably. It is appropriate you voice your opinion based on your experience. As we do with different experiences than you have had. When I recently chose an LP12 over a Sota (which I really wanted to be my choice), VPI, Basis, Walker… a number of others it was based on a lot of research, listening (not all… I did not listen to Sota ). But recent professional reviews were that Sota had not kept up. … A good friend who loved them and had heard contemporary ones could not recommend them versus Linn, Basis and other contemporary tables. I had to listen to the overwhelming evidence. I love the idea of owning a Sota… and I may buy one just for fun at some point. However, I can say with certainty the contemporary Linn LP12 is an exceptional table worthy of the cost. It’s performance is exceptional. There are many exceptional tables in it’s price range. One could be very happy with any one of them. |
Mijostyn himself highlights that history is littered with turntables of no significance. That is true. Many models have emerged, had a moment in the sun and faded away. This has been ongoing for decades. And yet the LP12 endures. For fifty years! The LP12 is the lightning rod for passion and debate. Most forum threads on this topic disolve into what we see here. I don’t have a horse in this race. I have never owned an LP12. I do know solid audiophiles who love their LP12. These are smart people who earn good money. They can buy whatever they like and some of them continue to tinker with their LP12 tables. You can buy a top spec model new for like $30,000. Or you could buy a used model for $1500 and create your own upgrade path and budget and play. You can hire a professional to do this for you or you can do it all yourself. You might be a keen woodworker and build your own fancy custom plinth out of exotic woods or purchase one from several well known craftsmen who do this kind of work. There is a solid market for all kinds of LP12 stuff. Perhaps a wider market than any table ever made? The point is the LP12 is a very successful product. It had fans in the 1970s and it has fans today. That being said folks are perfectly welcome to prefer other options, upgrade paths and budgets. No problem. There are a zillion choices. But think of this: maybe the popular (audio forum) alternative that is popular today might just not be around in 15 years but the Linn LP12 might continue to endure and attract new fans? |
The comment "It's suspension design is inherently unstable and if it is not on a supremely stable surface it will skip easily. Footfall issues are legion with this turntable. A little bump will cause a skip...." The above statement can be said of virtually any table. It is accepted by most audiophiles that to get the best performance out of almost any turntable, no matter it's design (whether it's suspended or mass loaded, etc.) that you must use a proper base or stand under the table. As shown in the photo below, I use a wall shelf that is attached to the studs of a load bearing wall for a proper support for my LP12. My wife and I can quite literally dance, jump up and down, etc right in front of the turntable and it will not skip a beat. It plays rock solid and completely undisturbed. 
@photomax I agree with everything you have said in your post above. Very well said. Best wishes to all, Don |
LP12 is like a traditional tube EL34/Kt88 tube. Some dismiss it as old school while others consider it musically charming and relevant. I have heard LP12 sound very ordinary and very awesome. Many modern TTs have very low (CD like?) noise floor and expansive soundstage, pin point imaging and big dynamics. Thats their achievement which is to be applauded. But do they represent music the way it was intended by the musicians? A lot of them just fall flat on this ground alone. An AMG Viela V12 sounds dead boring🥱. A Dohmann Helix takes pride in its all out effort for isolation, but play some Michael Jackson on it and see if the "king of the pop" feels like he is taking hou back in time to groove again. Just doesn't happen! All the imaging and soundstaging specificity is there to wow the listener as long as that's what the recording is all about. A Kronos TT sounds like a CD with better dynamics. Dry harmonics and discrete flow. I can go on and on. I have heard a lot of these TTs and it is extremely disappointing what today's one man designer voiced equipments sound like. Before some consider me as a LP12 fanboy, my favourite reference TTs are Kondo Ginga, Hartvig, SME 30/12, EMT 927, Micro Seiki 5000 and 8000 etc If I list out all the modern TTs which suck at keeping the integrity of the music, the list will be very long.
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@ghdprentice , While it is true that Sota had some production difficulties due to Covid and their revised Condor controller has a programing issue the Sota Sapphire still is significantly better than the LP12. If you go to the Nova with Vacuum you get a seriously better turntable. The Cosmos Vacuum is a turntable that is, from a performance perspective as good a any of the above turntables except the Dohmann (once it has a vacuum platter. Externally, it is a more rustic design which is easier and less expensive to make keeping the price down. I personally do not understand why people buy a turntable to look at. Inside that rustic interior is a very sophisticated design. I'm afraid you bought 50 year old mythology. If you get a Sota the LP12 will wind up on the used market in a week. I suggest either a Reed, Schroder, Kuzma or SME arm.😉
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My father in law had an LP12, and an older Thorens. I got to use them between 1976 and 1985. He has classical LPs stashed away in every spare space in a large house, and quite a lot of reel-to-reel tapes, but despite all that he was quick to move to CD when it came out. I learned to avoid too much fancy suspension, which is why I now have two SME 10s. But he did introduce me to Quad, which stuck, and B&W active speakers, which did not. |
I learned to avoid too much fancy suspension
When it comes to the main issue with the LP12, you've hit the nail on the head! Why oh why did they chose to suspend the subchassis on a flimsy piece of polished aluminium? To make matters even worse, a piece of aluminium only supported on 3 of its 4 sides! Then to seal the deal, why not attach an MDF armboard to the subchassis with three meagre screws? [Yes, I know the Keel fixes this, but at what cost? A mere £3000 if you're asking. Meanwhile it does nothing to address the 3 sided support issues]. Finally, for the cherry on top, why don't we use the tonearm cable to keep the notoriously wibbly wobbly subchassis aligned and free from drifting? Genius. Is not the word. You can blame Linn or, if you like, Ariston. Although to be fair, the Ariston RD 11 Superior does away with the separate armboard of the standard RD11 and appears to show a closer resemblance to the AR turntable setup. Either way, the LP12 illustrates a shockingly bad way to design a turntable suspension and as a consequence the LP12 gives suspended decks a very bad name indeed. There are obviously far better suspended designs out there, the Alaphason Sonata to just name one.
https://loud-clear.co.uk/glasgow/shop/keel-lp12-subchassis/
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@no_regrets As can be seen in this thread, member mijostyn has some very absolute thoughts about the Linn LP12. The ONLY thing that I think we can take away from all of his posts that are in fact 'Absolute' is the fact that he has a) never heard a current LP12, even from a decade ago, never mind current.2) Is besotted with his SOTA, which while not a bad table, has nowhere near the resolving power of a current LP12 and 3) has ABSOLUTELY no problem putting his uniformed 2 cents worth into another Linn thread...IMO...:0) |
ah…yes…TT Wars, 2022 edition… Fact is, i have heard many magical immersive system / room combinations over 40 years of doing this to know there are at least 20 superb tables out there….including both Linn and SOTA. Both have been significantly improved over the years. How wonderful it is for us music lovers that we have both ( and more ) to choose from. I don’t typically learn much sorting thru ownership bias… Jim
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Lot of interesting and valid comments in this thread.
As the owner of a circa 1985 LP12 (Akito arm, dynavector DV-20x2 cart) as well as a 2013 40th Anniversary Klimax, I’d highlight a few points.
Choosing a high end TT (and all other gear) tends to be a personal decision, frequently biased by many years of experience. While presumably sonic performance rates near the top of the determining factors, in many cases it isn’t. A whole host of other considerations apply and for good reason. For many aesthetics weight heavily on choice, and the aesthetics run a wide range from minimal, to very large and heavy, conservative to wildly complex. Material choices run a similar span from wood to space-age exotic metals and composites. User friendliness is another factor. Some have relatively straight forward operation while others require expert tutorial. And for nearly everyone, price has some bearing including for those who want to spend more! Of course, there’s the whole other matter of what it’s connected to and all of the factors that went into the other component’s selection, many of which may bias the TT choice.
In this context, the LP12 is actually quite unusual having been in continuous production for 50 years. As others have noted, the early and current versions share essentially a name, as all of the main components have gone thru many changes and upgrades including the plinth. So it’s really invalid to compare LP12s from differing decades, never mind several decades. And for those who haven’t heard a relatively current and we’ll set up Klimax, your opinion while perhaps well intended is uninformed. The gap in performance on my two is simply night and day, and the early one is pretty good (until you hear the newer one).
For me, the appeal is that with the exception of very few high end TTs, the LP12 is a known entity. This means it’s operation is well understood, it’s easily serviceable, no shortage of set-up expertise, and despite what some have said, I set up my Klimax in one house, drove it to another 100 miles away and hooked it up and it’s played perfectly for 2 years (and counting).
Also important for me is that it’s not a physical commitment. Its relative modest size and weight make it “agreeable” in the room, as does its conservative/classic styling. On this point to each his own, but like it or not the LP12 is a TT icon.
As for performance, it makes me tap my foot which is ultimately what these things are meant to do. I remain stunned how much information it’s capable of extracting off the vinyl, and while by nature no component can be everyone’s favorite, the LP12 with its long history, upgradability, serviceability, reliability, sonic performance, build quality, and yes, in such cases where resale is not unimportant, that too. It’s a short list of high end TTs that have all of these attributes and brand awareness that makes ownership both accessible and to a large extent, recoverable (relatively speaking).
So yes, I am planning to get a current Klimax as the latest Ekstatik cart is yet another material improvement.
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@ajhsu2 , No turning a sows ear into a silk purse. The current LP12 is just as antiquated as the one from decades ago. It does not even rate a class B in Stereophile terms. It's mystique was created in the mid 70s when (defective as it was) it was the best sounding turntable you could buy for reasonable money. I bought LP12 # 1 IN 1977 and held on to it for a year when frustrated with it's incompetent suspension I sold it for a Micro Seiki only to discover that I prefered the sound of the Linn so, in 1979 I bought LP12 # 2 and suffered with it for two years when I sold it for a SOTA Sapphire, a breath of fresh air to say the least. Not only did it sound better than the Linn but it was a delight to use and unlike the Linn nothing bothered it. Today there are several tables that surpass the LP12 in performance and are a better value, the Thorens TD 1600 to mention one. |
LOL, this thread has a new life! In the latest Stereophile component ranks, on page 36, the Linn LP12 Klimax model is ranked in class A. |
Marketing. If Linn had renamed their product with each upgrade, we’d be free of the inevitable comparisons between the original LP12 and the current variant, which although an upgraded variant, we’d now call an “LP20” or the like. Psychologically this might have been better for the Linn image. I liken it to Technics with the SL1200. They were foolish to re-use that name and to reproduce that appearance in the context of the current G/GR series tables, which are different and better in every way compared to the original SL1200 lineup. Many novice buyers cannot separate the old from the new in their thinking. Likewise too, the original SOTA Sapphire vs the Cosmos. The latter is really an upgraded Sapphire, a 40 year old design. But we discuss it as if the Cosmos was something new. Shakespeare had it right when he wrote”what’s in a name…?” |
I understand why some people do not like the Linn they want to see lots of parts and wild design and "original" thinking and bold, decisive, distinctive executions using parts that are unique, unusual, and unexpected these kinds of people think they can judge a product by simple "examination" when they lack the technical skills, knowledge, and understanding to comprehend the folly of their assessment method which lacks discipline, confirmation, and rigor it is alwys this one guy whoo attacks Linn |
