Surge protectors--how many $ make sense?

It sounds like for a number of you there is no $ limit. Your budget is maximum protection. I am an average audio guy who is constantly pushing at the end of my budget. I'll let you know if the $3K makes sense for me. It's as high as I can go. Real world budget, I probably should have said.

@rfagon

My no bs answer is I dont have that specific model.

I have a much older AR model which feeds two other Furmans with SMP.

Under normal operation in my HT it is silent and produces no heat, BUT occassionally when the incoming voltage is low I do hear a mechanical hum.

Its also like 10 years old, so not sure.  I am about to renovate my HT setup and will replace it.

Eric Squires: How much audible noise does the Furman P 1800 AR make during normal operation? When it’s operating under heavy current loads or correcting voltage imbalances? 

How much heat does it generate?

 

 

My experience is a two-fold approach 

1. Whole house surge protector 

2. Shunyata denali and Alpha v2 NR cables. The difference in sound (or more specifically lack of sound and noise) was noticeable to me. It also has a mechanical surge protector 

I view this as performance enhancing and protection 

@rfagon Clamping voltage is a single dimensional specification, It means very little unless the clamping time is also specified. In the case of SquareD, their whole house surge protectors have a clamping time of 4-6 nanoseconds. When you consider that a single 60 Hz cycle is 175,000 times longer, you begin to understand how very effective they are in the real world. That said, the Environmental Potentials products are the real deal, and engineered (and priced) accordingly to their higher performance. The EP-HPS at $2400 isn't cheap, but their lack of pretense about their products is very appealing.

@rfagon

UL Listed is for complete products. UL Recognized (U and Reversed R) is for “recognized components” that have been subjected to testing limited by their conditions of acceptability". The individual MoVs are generally recognized since they do not have an enclosure or NEC compatible connection to the mains.

I was a UL product safety engineer and did some work on TVSS in the late 80s. Spent most of my UL engineering career testing and certifying SMPS and electrical medical devices for safety.

My 2015 house in the American Southwest has a breaker board that trips if you burp too loudly.

@incorrigable 

That's actually not a good thing.  Since you had an electrician inspect your audio system I imagine you also had the panel inspected?

I've been in this 2006 home for 4 years and the only time I've had a breaker trip was entirely my fault or during GFCI testing.

My 2015 house in the American Southwest has a breaker board that trips if you burp too loudly. So I just run two entry level Furman power strips, which occasionally trip. I had an electrician inspect my $30K system. It's all class D.  He said the amp draw was nowhere near overload.  

@panzrwagn

I would also check out Ting - www.tingfire.com - an electrical arc fault detector.

Oh, that’s pretty cool, honestly. :) The NEC has been steadily going towards more arc fault detection in the home. They went from 1 per bedroom to 1 in every 120V circuit in the home pretty much. You can upgrade most breakers to AFCI, but none of them have the cool reporting in this unit.

I had a Furman unit with voltage readout.  That's why I ended up getting a unit with AVR.  I could see how much my voltage wavered through the day, up to 130V peaks when I was in a high rise.

Now that I'm in a home I get long term, seasonal and daily voltage swings which my PC doesn't care about, but the AVR keeps me +_ a few volts, or it shuts down. Nothing in between.

@mikhailark 

Probably not.  That's why I recommend Furman.  ZeroSurge also has a big presense in the pro market.

 

PS - Furman and Panamax are owned by the same parent company and some equivalent features are available through Panamax as well but be careful as Furman and Panamax have a lot of models with different feature sets.  The minimum I recommend is the Furman with SMP & LiFT. 

@rfagon

You bring up a lot of items, and that's why I initially recommended the Furman with SMP and AVR.  SMP is best in class surge protection, while AVR will ensure your amps and other gear get fed consistently better voltage than your wall outlet might have. 

I've even had contractors using circular saws on the same circuit as my amp and other gear.  The voltage never ever wavered.

Your point about the difference in clamping (let through) voltages is also correct.  Whole house units are not intended to protect your most delicate electronics, and the NEC as well as manufacturers recommend they be supported by point of use protection.   I wrote about this in detail here, but series mode protection (Furman with SMP, ZeroSurge, Brickwall) is faster and clamps lower, plus usually cut off during brown outs and white outs.

OP:

Over-current protection is a requirement for today’s high current audio power distributors.

True, but almost any power strip has one.

There is a better solution — the hydraulic electromagnetic breaker that utilizes low-impedance relays and a sensing coil that reads the current level without heating up or limiting current.

That’s cool, still won’t help you in case of an incoming voltage surge. Breakers protect against shorts downstream. They are all (including this one) too slow and may never react to a voltage surge which can blow through nanometer scale insulation in silicon because a damaging surge voltage may not ever cross the current x time envelope needed to trip the breaker.

In this sense the series mode vendors (Furman with SMP, ZeroSurge, Brickwall) are all correct.  You need the upstream filter to slow a surge down long enough to have time to respond.  A breaker isn't it.

i notice that UL voltage protection rating may be “listed” or “component recognized”. Can you please comment on the difference? Thx

@rfagon

I cannot.   I suggest going by the actual third party testing conducted by Wirecutter.  Series mode protectors (Furman with SMP, Zerosurge, Brickwall) generally have much lower let through voltages than those which are primarily MOV based.   I wrote about it here. 

@audio-b-dog, with the level of investment in your listening chain I’d seriously think about getting something like an AudioQuest Niagara 7000 power conditioner with an AQ Dragon power cable or at least try the pair in your home and see if they do anything beyond giving you peace of mind. I think it comes down to how stable and clean the electricity is running into your home. 

Eric_squires thanks for recommending devices that meet UL 1449 which is the UL standard for surge protection.

i notice that UL voltage protection rating may be “listed” or “component recognized”. Can you please comment on the difference? Thx

Shunyata Venom 16 Power Conditioner:  

Electromagnetic Breaker

Over-current protection is a requirement for today’s high current audio power distributors. The vast majority of manufacturers use an inexpensive thermal fuse or breaker. Both are specifically designed to heat up as the current level rises. This causes voltage drops, increased contact impedance, thermal noise, excessive heat generation and current limiting effects. There is a better solution — the hydraulic electromagnetic breaker that utilizes low-impedance relays and a sensing coil that reads the current level without heating up or limiting current. They can operate right up the to the maximum current level without heating up or limiting instantaneous current. They are rarely used in competitive products since they cost 10-20 times that of a common fuse or thermal breaker.

Deecee: thanks for the suggestions! I’m planning to do the same.

CORRECTION: “…and how many power conditioners have surge protection from a voltage spike over  of 200 volts?”

I lived in the lightning capitol (Orlando) of the US (over 20 years). I installed a whole house surge protector and as a cherry on top added a Brickwall surge protector (Zero Surge will also do).

If your building takes a direct strike NOTHING will protect your equipment, of course.

Good luck & Happy Listening,

DeeCee

Power conditioners and surge protection seem to get mixed up.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but:

My understanding of effective surge protection for audio devices- not kitchen appliances- is that a surge protector has to have a CLAMPING VOLTAGE (threshold where current is interrupted) less than 200 volts.

According to the dealer who sold me an Environmental Potentials whole home surge protector, the lowest CLAMPING VOLTAGE  achieved by whole home surge protectors is around 400 volts. This may protect a fridge compressor motor but not audio electronics (or even any smart components on a fridge or stove)

….and how many power conditioners have surge protection from a voltage spike over 200 volts?

How many power conditioners or surge protectors can protect audio components from a SAG in voltage/ brownout?

I thought I'd try a power conditioner with surge protection this time. I keep reading and hearing from audiophiles how much good power condtioners make a difference in the sound. Mine arrives mid next week. I'll report back. My dealer (grain of salt) tells me there will be no question how much better the Sonus Faber Olympica Nova 5s he sold me will sound. It will not be a sublte thing, he says. We shall see.

I have been using a Panamax MR5100 Protector and 10 yrs of service have seen it few times shut off and reboot with our electric shut down and reboot.. Never had a lighting strike but close few times....But something is better than nothing  I am sure...I have it on dark and when something happens it lights up and shows the voltage....I think at times of replacing but never had a hard hit on it..

Some years ago, a lightning strike got in via my dog's "invisible fence".  No protection anywhere. Blew fence's transformer off wall and just past my head.  Distroyed my PC's motherboard and something in my Bryston amp. 

Sent still under 20 yr warranty amp to Bryston but forgot to tell them what happened. The tech called, and asked. I mentioned the ligthning strike and he said "we don't usually warrant lightning strikes" . . . pause . . .  "but this time we'll fix it".  

Been a Bryston fan boy ever since...and have whole house and point of use protection stuff everywhere.

This Belkin surge protector is the one to get.  About $43 from Amazon.

 

4320 Joules of protection.  A sensible and easy choice to make.

It's not a money thing. Get a whole house surge protector and be done with it. <$500 installed. Just keep in mind NOTHING will stop a lightning strike except physically unplugging your equipment.

I have a $3K budget, and that was already stretching it. I have a wife, remember.

Just my 2c from an old electronics guy. Eaton Ultra surge protectors in the main and sub panels, multiple dedicated 20 amp circuits, multiple Zero Surge units, Eaton 9PX UPS unit for Trinnov, Kscape and a few other high $$ items.

Fancy cases and "audio" specialty products are snake oil.

I haven't received the Shunyata Venom 16 yet. It's on backorder. I think a lot of people in LA, with the Santa Ana Winds, are looking for protection for their audio equipment. It's also used in hospitals, according to the literature.

Transparent Power isolator is a great surge protector. Surge power Design is of a hydraulic nature. It’s on the expensive side but it’s a conditioner that does not restrict Power.

A lot of high-end audio systems use this.

Always interested in comments about this conditioner.

Surge protection.   I'd stay away from urge protection!

OP - Since you have the Shunyata on trial why not pick up a Furman 20i that can be returned and compare them?  Might save yourself some significant change.  +1 on the whole-house urge protection.  It's a no-brainer at a few hundred dollars installed.

Sounds like you have an understanding spouse.  Lucky man.

Good choice on shunyata even better dealer let's you try it.i don't know how long manufacture states the breakin period is may check on that. I do think things perform better after 50 or so hours when new.enjoy the music

@audio-b-dog 

I hear you, for many of us; it’s a balancing act—pursuing your passion for high-fidelity sound while keeping harmony at home. Ultimately, it’s about finding that sweet spot where your passion and your partnership coexist harmoniously. 

As for the surge protector and power conditioning, they are two sides of a coin. Whenever you are ready, consult an electrician and plan for installation.

lalitk, I hear you on the box surge protector. I'm not sure that will come soon, though. I have to work my budget out with my wife, and I've spent $18K on new speakers, $4K on a Moon streamer, and $3K on a surge protector/power conditioner, if I like the Shunyata. I have never spent that kind of money all in one fell swoop before. I don't know how the rest of you married follk deal with spouses, but if I were left to my own devices, without a budget, I would spend so much money that in the end even I would think it was foolish. But I will look into the power boxes surge protectors. I have three boxes now, but one I think is the main one. I'd have to ask an electrician. But again, there is a lot of diplomacy to being a married audiophile.

@audio-b-dog 

That’s a good starting point and should give you a good perspective on how a power conditioner works in your system. If you like what you hear then V16 + whole surge protection device in your main breaker box should set you up nicely.
Keep us posted! 

I have talked to my local dealer about trying out a Shunyata - Venom V16 Power Conditioner. If I don't think it makes my systerm sound $3K (including power cord) better, I can return it. But it's on order and I'll have to wait a while.

We had over 1000 lightning strikes in Sydney a couple of evenings ago. Many years ago, a surge protector with a large connected-equipment guarantee sacrificed itself.  It took a fair bit of argy bargy but they eventually coughed up.

We are still using copper for many internet connections, which can be a way in for strikes.  Also roof antennae for broadcast TV reception!

I would also recommend a whole house protecter.  It’s definitely saved AV equipment and more over time.  

I have run krell fpb 6k watts into 1 ohm mcintosh 1.25k bryston 28 b3 and many hive 10 k watt class d into the 20 i and have never had an issue.yes I would prefer plugging them directly into the wall but don't want to lose a high dollar amp.the furman may Rob 1%of sound quality but that's the trade off.the 20 I has capacitors with>60 amp transients power so does audioquest 7000 but it's 11 k. Many furman 20 i in recording studios. Enjoy the hunt.read alot of reviews.the shunyata is a good one they cryo thier stuff to align the atoms to make electrons flow better.

Some used furman 20 i on the music room now 1.5k but I would go open box

My power surges 2x a wk and I have furman 20 i that have never failed me.there are some on ebay open box about 2k.a whole house would be good as well.sorry it took a fire to stimulate.

I have had great luck with using computer type Battery Backup/Surge protectors. My approach has been to use relatively high power units that will support a load of 1000 VA or more and use those in sufficient numbers to handle the current draw of the equipment. The good news is companies like APC will warranty the equipment connected for replacement cost up to a fairly high value...as yet I have never had to collect on that warranty and hope I never do. It is a source of peace of mind to know that the warranty is in place.

OP:

Be careful as some are marketed as "offers surge protection" which is different from having a UL or ETL certification as a surge protection device. Actual surge protectors will be certified to UL 1449.  It's the difference between throwing an MOV into the box and actually undergoing high voltage testing.

Defense in depth: Absolutely begin with a whole house surgeprotector. It is the cheapest insurance known for everything electric in your home, especially if you lie in thunderstorm prone areas. If you have sub-panels, but one in their as well. Next is your point-of-use devices. Whether you decide to go with a simple quality suege protector, more elaborate power conditioner, or all the way to a battery power generator is up to you and your circumstances.

I would also check out Ting - www.tingfire.com - an electrical arc fault detector. State Farm just sent me one for free. Apparently they can detect 80% of all electrical fires before ignition. I get a monthly email report showing voltage fluctuations, outages, brown outs, and voltage spikes, which is kinda fascinating in a nerdy quasi-paranoid way. But the reassuring note that no faults were found does deliver some peace of mind. They're $99 with a year of monitoring, and include a pretty cool app, if your insurance company won't freebie one.

Given the quality of the rest of your system, I would recommend as high a level as possible. Shunyata good choice. Definitely audition. But a good power conditioner will improve the sound yof all your components other than the amp (directly into outlet). There are isolated reports of a power conditioner not making a difference... very uncommon. Also, consider it a component you may never upgrade as you upgrade the rest of your system. I bought my 75lb power conditioner over twenty five years ago. It remains a core component... and when I have made comparisons... it is still of great comparative value. I’d audition an Everest. You'd never have to think about it again. 

Thanks, Eric. Good point that i should check out whether the power conditioner is also a surge protector. I want both.

David

Thanks, Bob. I will check out the Audioquest, which I know is sold by Music Direct who has sold me a whole bunch of things. I have read many audio reviews where the reviewer is using an Audioquest conditioner. They do get expensive, however. In my mind, $3K is as high as I want to go.

David

@audio-b-dog ,

I would second (third) the recommendation of a whole house surge protector. A licensed electrician can install one at a relatively low cost. And, given that you have a very nice (and expensive system), it makes sense to protect that as well as all the other electronic devices in your home. 

But, if you don't own your home, or don't want to commit to the expense, I would recommend the Audioquest Niagra series of power conditioners. They offer good protection and won't mess up the sound (at least, IMHO).

Bob

I’d go with a whole house surge protector in your service panel to protect all your electrical devices. I’d additionally look into the Furman products for your audio system. I’ve had very good results with this two-layer protection scheme.