What is considered the best way to "foot" a subwoofer, should one try to connect it with the floor or isolate it? I have a REL 7i that I have firmly coupled to my wood floor with the weight of a 42 lb curling stone, mainly because it looks cool. Would some sort of isolation be better and reduce resonance from the floor, or could the connection with the floor help "drain" resonance from the subwoofer cabinet?
Doesn't this depend a lot on what type of floor one has?
Solid foundations sound better with the sub coupled to the floor. Suspended floors sound better with the sub isolated from the floor.
My friend owns one of the best audio/video integrators in Los Angeles. He seems to believe it is a no brainer,
All I can tell you, is I lived in Alta Dena in an older house with a suspended floor, and the bass sounded boomy, and tubby, until I isolated my subs from the floor.
Now, living in the Valley, in a house with a solid foundation, the subs sound better coupled to the floor.
And even at their best at the Alta Dena house, on the suspended floor, they did not sound as good as they do on the solid, slab foundation.
My home has a hardwood floor on a crawlspace. 12" subs cause simply too much structural rattle in the room. Installed set of SVS Soundpath isopods. Problem solved. Clean crisp bass extension. No lost energy to the room floor. Night and Day difference. MC & Heavy are dead right.
zlone, Considering everybody’s system and room differences not to mention their personal taste, there aren’t many subwoofer absolutes. Just go for it. Placing some form of suspension under your sub can be a very inexpensive and an interesting experiment. If you do, you may want to experiment with adjusting the gain.
My 66 VW convertible can be seen in the August 1992 edition of Hot VWs on page 75. oldvymec is right. Even thought the convertibles body work was produced by Karman sophistication of the doors are in the eyes of the beholder.
I’v had a couple in the house and get a kick out of REL’s wishful -6dB advertised frequency response. Have fun with it.
The Passive Radiator (PR) located in the bottom of the cabinet already has a certain amount of mass attached to the center, by the factory. By adding or subtracting mass from the PR, it is possible to make system tonal balance warmer (higher Q) or tighter (lower Q). This is accomplished by changing an inert mass such as Mortite rope putty, the substance attached to the PR. You can buy additional putty at most hardware stores but your speaker is delivered over-damped (a bit too much putty), so that in almost all cases, you will tune the speakers by removing mass from the PR. Mass is accessible by inserting your hand into the slot formed by the base and the bottom of the cabinet. Removing a very small amount, no more than 1gram of putty, will be sufficient to make the adjustment.
Moving mass of PR is very low. Since a PR is driven equally over its entire surface by the active woofer's backwave, the diaphragm will move pistonically even if it is not rigid. The PR cones are treated paper. Paper is fine as long as you don't have to listen to their high frequency noise and distortion products. Facing the PR down and slot-loading it out the front filters such products out nicely.
We invented the slot-loaded PR and decided not to patent it, since we would spend our life in court defending against copies. We knew we were on the right track when we saw a Klipsch monitor at the AES in 1984 with a slot-loaded PR.
You want to learn about BASS read this guys stuff. He was amazing.. Mr. DBA and Swarm offer some really great stuff too. BUT Cheney was the all time KING of great BASS without DSP or any digital correction..
Any speaker enclosure is a pressurized passive radiator that outputs resonance in every direction. Best to direct couple the enclosure towards or to the floor because isolation at its best will only work in 1 direction. Tom
My subs, Martin Logan Depth i are designed to cancel internal vibrations. I do have them on Stillpoints SS Ultras which serve to couple and decouple. These made a noticeable positive difference
It is obvious “oldhvymech”, you are a spring isolation advocate and that is OK, but when you produce challenges and/or statements based on your experiences, you can expect rebuttals, or a few questions directed back to you.
Bringing back theorems from the 80’s and 90’s does not establish anything other than adding dated opinions into the mix. Vibration management has evolved since that time.
There are NO STEEL WHEELS... You don’t couple vibrations to other structures... THINK!!!
Using other applications and sciences that are non-related to music reproduction does not fare well either.
Example: Buildings, car chassis supports and other related industries involving isolation techniques and products containing springs do little to reinforce the art of increasing sound quality and equipment performance. I never heard of an architect or car manufacturer or any electron microscope designer relating spring performance to musical characteristics such as attack, sustain and decay.
With regards to coupling vibrations to other structures… We have been doing so for three decades. Everything in audio from microphones and their stands, musical instruments, sound and visual reproduction equipment, power distribution, turntables, and structural sound rooms are evidence of successful direct coupling products and applied technology that is obviously scalable and highly adaptable.
It is obvious “oldhvymech”, you are a spring isolation advocate and that is OK, but when you produce challenges and/or statements based on your experiences, you can expect rebuttals, or a few questions directed back to you.
Another topic that is never talked about is the fact that springs wear out from constant compression and lose structural efficiency over time.
What happens to the audio signal when metal or stress fatigue involving a spring begins to set in? Is the human ear capable of hearing the slow collapse in performance or do we just go into the dark time-tunnel because we, as audiophiles, fail to go back to the original reference point replacing old parts with new ones?
Why do the finer spring manufacturers place a one-year warranty on their products?
Why are springs severely restricted to weight tolerances? Do you always have to change out springs because of changes in your equipment investments simply because one chassis is heavier than the other? I imagine the spring manufacturers love heavy-to-light and light-to-heavy selections as those changes simply sell more products.
For these reasons, we prefer mechanical grounding and high-speed resonance transfer techniques (direct coupling) supported by material science and geometries specific to parts shapes and designs that are all married to physics and earthly function.
There are no weight restrictions governing performance. The smallest of parts can support 6 ounces and perform the same when applying over 600 pounds. When you purchase a bigger part, the mass increases, geometry improves, sonic quality increases, and the parts do not wear out.
Not saying our technology is better or the best as listeners determine those stats. I just wanted to offer up another opinion based on a newer vibration management theorem known as high-speed resonance transfer.
I just gave you two. Carver and VMPS. I meet Carver when I took a class from him as an apprentice and Worked with Brian Cheney off and on for 30 years before his death in El Sobrante, CA
BOTH isolated their personal rigs, and recommended their customers do the same.
The quote was from the old VMPS site.. NOT MINE...
IF you don’t mind I give BACK the "stupid" remark to whom it came from.. I’ll pass on your gift..
Again if you haven’t been isolating "things" and making sure they continued working for a living. Maybe you should pay a little more attention, before you infer others offer stupid advise..
The coherence between the bass from the speaker box and then transferring it to the floor causes smear. The Two are NOT going to deliver the same frequency at the same time.
That is why guys like MC notice a cleaner more time coherent bass AFTER decoupling from a second source. The floors, walls and ceiling.
"A cabinet output is transmitted to the listener ahead of the music, through the floor (made usually a good carrier of sound like wood or stone)".
"Soundwaves travel through many solids much more rapidly than through the air."
AIR transmits the sound slower.. Brian Cheney "Mr Bass" quoted that, pauly..
That is also why I use separate (directional) MB columns. There is NO sub or bass signals inside in my monitor cabinets.. There is no SUB frequencies in either MB or monitor cabinet..
ALL three types of speaker cabinets are DE coupled from the room and each other.. That is the eye opener of eye openers.. It requires more real estate and cabinets somewhat sized to the room, but it is the very best way I’ve found. BAR none..
Try it, seriously, your going to be surprised if you JUST try it.. I like innertubes the best for heavy Bass bins or subs.. I’d be happy to help if you want to give it a try. I’ve said it over and over. Stereo gear and all its crap is about as sophisticated as the door on a 63 VW Bug.. BUT not quit to the level of a 65 BUG left door.. I’m just a common man who happens to be an OLD heavy mechanic.
After years of repairing heavy equipment over the phone or via Email I could get a little passionate if I had to go do what I told people to do in South America on an off shore drilling platform.. It’s their 50k for 3 days of flying and 15 minutes of work.. 5 times at least that happened.
In California and the West coast every day for over 45 years..
Why would a manufacture sell a 20K amp with a 10.00 usd power cable. They don’t expect YOU to use it..
Most amplifier manufacturers recommend aftermarket cables. Not a single one advises against using them. At best, some may claim aftermarket cables aren’t needed.
Not a single speaker manufacturer, currently active or active during the past 80 years, have ever recommended their speakers be sprung. They all recommend their products be placed on a solid and firm surface.
The idea that using a aftermarket power cable is analogous to putting a speaker on suspension is ridiculous.
A speaker driver cannot possibly reproduce sound accurately when it’s enclosure is moving on the same axis as the driver. It’s simple physics. Very simple physics.
You’re the one who needs to think.
BTW, the caps key is the third from the bottom on the left side of your keyboard.
"Why would a manufacturer build and sell a product that will not work optimally with the feet supplied knowing that a bad review can kill sales. "
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Why would a manufacture sell a 20K amp with a 10.00 usd power cable. They don’t expect YOU to use it..
Just because someone puts a name on a box and call’s it "The Best Sub", Doesn’t mean it is... I keep reading how ’So and So subs should know about subs" WHY? 10-20 year old businesses. Most Agoners have been at this STUFF for 40 plus years. So who has the years under their belts.
I keep seeing Points, solid to the floor, no isolation, spring move, La-Te-Da. Mercy!!
In the 70-80s they new to do it.
From the old VMPS web site, below.. Mr Bass Himself Brian C
"Spikes
Spikes both couple and decouple the cabinet/speaker output from the floor.
Bass wavelengths are quite long and, below about 200Hz, boundary dependent. Without a surface to travel along they dissipate somewhat rapidly. A woofer would ideally be as close to a boundary (floor) or multiple boundaries (side and back walls, and even ceiling) as possible, or at least a constant distance from them. By elevating a cabinet from the floor with spikes, you reduce the propagation efficiency of bass wavelengths. So, you decouple bass from the room, even if ever so slightly. The effect is quite audible.
Spikes couple cabinet output to the floor, turning it into a transmission medium. Soundwaves travel through many solids much more rapidly than through the air. Instead of "moving the floor", cabinet output is transmitted to the listener ahead of the music, through the floor (made usually a good carrier of sound like wood or stone). This is why I’m no fan of spikes, and the Sunfire people aren’t either.
Try some damping compound between the spikes and the cabinet (not between the spikes and the floor) and let me know if you hear a difference. I’ve seen composite spikes that were metal only on the tips, otherwise rubber. Should work better.
Since spikes do two things I don’t like--diminish bass propagation, and transmit or even amplify spurious cabinet talk--I never recommend their use.
As Sunfire recommends, rubber or other absorbent materials can be used as feet for speakers or subs.
Since a lot depends on the height of the stand and the materials from which your floor is made, why not experiment? Personally I like Dynamat".
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That was in the 80-90s. 3-40 years LATER I read this
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Speakers and subwoofers like to be solidly mounted to add structure to the enclosure, they do not like to be in micro motion. The ONLY reason you would ever want to iso mount a speaker or subwoofer is if the energy of the speaker is transfering into something such that it is audibly resonating, e.g. a suspended wood floor. In that case you would introduce isolstion of some sort because not using it is worse than using isolation. isolation is a compromise solution, the speaker is now in micromotion. no isolation is always best if the speaker isnt causing something else to vibrate audibly.
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Sounds confusing doesn’t it?
Everything vibrates. HOW MUCH? That is the question.
IF the cabinet is not solid to begin with, it’s certainly not going to get that way setting it on the floor. You can ADD weight to the structure to mass load then spring load. THINK!! Just like the bus, car, plane, train, horse and buggy, bicycle, motorcycle, baby carriage. When you ride in them, they isolates your BUTT from the road..
There are NO STEEL WHEELS... You don’t couple vibrations to other structures... THINK!!!
"Why?" To keep the price down and give people options. I use the soundpath feet because I have wood floors, I don't want to make a plinth for a huge sub and I don't want it walking across the floor. Various reasons people make their choices...
Question: Why would a manufacturer build and sell a product that will not work optimally with the feet supplied knowing that a bad review can kill sales. If you have to spend $200 + to make their product work properly shouldn't they tell you that up front? They know that very few people would have a perfect environment.
If I were a sub maker, I would make sure my feet were the best and then advertise that you have to spend $xxx with other subs to match my subs performance. Reviewers would jump on that and make comparisons.
it all depends on how much sustain you want on the bass notes if the bass is too heavy isolating it is a good idea but if it is too light coupling it is a better idea.
I have a REL 528SE subwoofer and tried springs (Nobsound) to see if the sub would sound better. However, went back to using blue tak to affix to my suspended wood floors, as I preferred this sound over the springs. The bass seems tighter and also turns out that I had a lengthy correspondence with Justin at REL who suggested blu tak as the preferred method for their subwoofers.
As someone stated previously, I switched out the stock feet for the Soundpath footers on my SVS sb1000 and both pb1000's in my HT, and definitely notice the difference on our wood floors with wall bass traps/acoustic panels.
My subs went from BDR Cones to Nobsound spring to Townshend Pods. The last was a big jump with 5 subs but the difference was a surprise. Instead of the obvious improvement in bass that was expected the difference was immediately apparent even in music that seemed to have no real powerful low bass. The whole room opened up becoming larger, the speakers disappeared even more and the sound stage became even more enveloping. I think this is because when really low bass is done right you don't hear it so much as feel it, and this feeling is expressed in the sensation of being in a larger space. I know that sounds crazy but talking to others who have done Townshend under subs that is what they hear as well. I haven't touched the level on the subs yet at times it feels like they are turned down, until something happens and I realize no there is at least as much bass as before only cleaner now. So yeah you are missing something. Pods are cheaper than bars, I would try Pods if you can.
I can save you the trouble, REL will tell you their product is so perfect nothing can possibly ever be better, except their next one. 🤣 That is not a knock on REL. That is what they all say. No amp maker will ever tell you their amp needs a power cord or a fuse and no speaker maker will tell you to use a Podium, and caps? Forgetaboutit!🤣🤣
I am a big fan of the Townsend isolation products. I have them under my main speakers, amps and equipment rack and they really do make a noticeable difference. I was looking to put them under my REL 812/s subs (2). As they are not inexpensive I thought I would contact REL to see what they had to say. In their opinion, they said I would hear no perceptible difference adding isolation to the subwoofers. My wallet cheered this news but my instinct still wonders if I am not missing something.
Here is a little one up on the 30.00 spring packs.
Get the spring load right, about 1/2 compression on the springs no matter if you suspend the whole piece or just one side of it. The side closest to the wall I have on a silicone snubbers and springs the inside I have on springs and perches with gummy puffers (30.00 model)
I use the term "gummy puffers" because that is what it translates to. Memory foam ear plugs. Take one per spring, roll it, install it, and put the top back on. Add sorbothane top and bottom.. Same thing on spring suspension TT add gummy puffers..
Now we have good dampening to boot. We are stopping vibration and bringing the decay rate close to ZERO from the box to the floor. That’s the real trick. Is the room still acting like a Ricochet Biscuit?
It really effect a transport, turntables cone drivers (with VC) or any valve based gear. Valves don’t like to be shaken. EVER. Neither do Voice coils.
like I said before some people like tactile bass shakers.. Some people like panel exciters. I personally do.. they are fun.. Bass shakers NO. You can shake the walls down if that what you wanted to do with the HE sub drivers and powerful amps available today. I use 15 and 18" with 22mm XMax. 90 or 91 efficient.. I don’t need NO STINKIN’ SHAKERS at all.:-)
Friday, time for a little Boom Boom..
Hat on the floor, as I slowly walk around to the beat of the music and my faithful dog follows me. I STOP. and we slowly back around the hat to the beat of the music.. Olay Amigo!
With that sub you will probably only need 3-4 springs per footer. This will leave you with 12-16 springs left over, enough to make another set of footers to use under another component. You can make additional footers from MDF, acrylic or wood. Drill some 1/4" divots the way Nobsound does to hold the springs.
The improvement from under the sub will be okay, not nearly as much as Townshend Pods but at least as good as other stuff mentioned. Combined with using the extra set under a CDP or whatever you will find hard to beat for $30.
You do not by the way have to put them under the existing factory feet. They can be used just inboard of that, and with a spacer can wind up with almost exactly the same height above the floor as now.
Great feedback everyone, thank you. As a low cost test I ordered some Nobsound springs, though something like a Subdude is definitely under consideration. I shall report back.
Another Auralex Subdude user here. Cleans up muddy bass that obscures midrange detail when flooring is problematic. Everything is more refined and detailed top to bottom.
SVS sells their SoundPath sub isolation footers for only $50 and offers a generous risk-free trial so you can try’em at home. They are said to both improve bass and reduce transmission and get excellent reviews from customers who bought them. No brainer in my book. Best of luck.
You can not isolate a subwoofer from a "springy" floor. It will shake/resonate from the bass regardless. The solution to a "springy" floor is to fix the floor which can be easily done with lally columns and a header. Once the resonance frequency of the floor is above the subwoofers highest frequency you are in business. People imagine all these EVIL gremlins lurking around corners. Lay instinct run amok. Any shaking, movement or vibration in any loudspeaker is distortion. With subs this is viciously true. The failing of most subwoofers is the enclosure. It is extremely hard to contain that vibrating monster in a cost effective manner.
I discovered early on that placing my Velodyne HGS-15s of Auralex SubDudes really improves their performance. I do enjoy that subtle more felt than heard experience when a large pipe is played by the organist.
Yikes, I've never seen a place where they worked. There is vertical and horizontal, vibration control. There is also From and TO the source. It's difficult to make points work on both plains and variance of the two..
Have you EVER seen any type of power plant that wasn't isolated. I've never seen one. You ever see one on points? I haven't!
LOL Kinda like steel wheels they never did catch on.. Maybe a BIG dimple roller.
Every time it's a gummy puffer (soft mount) with a hole through the center and longer bolts with washers and springs, on either side of the mount sandwiched between the gummy puffers. You back up and slam it forward or forward and slam it in reverse, the spring compress, while the mounting plate is between silicone wafers. Pretty tough!!
You should see what happens to a typical 4 stroke diesel (5-15 liters) engine that loosed the integrity of a harmonic balancer. Break in half!
You can't make it solid enough, but you can make it soft enough..
I can assure you it is not uncommon for some here who will not be named to post solely for the sake of posting and to garner attention for reasons unknown and with absolutely no regard for Truth or integrity. It should surprise nobody that this kind of thing goes on all the time in forums like this.
I have. Huge difference in the system I heard it on (the one in the video posted earlier). Amazing what it sounds like isolated from the floor and room structure. This was build by an acoustics expert whos quite popular in the US and builds the best mastering rooms Ive ever heard.
I like oldhvymec, cool story about the big generators. I was thinking of a hotel I visited recently with back up generators out back on big concrete pads so maybe it was more than concrete? brad
Have any of you guys who are so sure about springs actually tried them?
Again, note the difference between those who have done and those who
talk as if they have done. Would be nice if all the people repeating
nonsense about springs would include a statement to the effect they do
not really know what they are talking about, because they have not
tried.
Have you actually tried them? Because everything you are saying is proven wrong the minute you actually try them. None of what you are saying actually happens. So have you actually tried? Or is it all blather?
I'm with oldhvymec on this one. The only thing that made listening to my stereo system remotely tolerable was to move the house off its existing foundation, remove the foundation, excavate a 35' x 45' x 15' deep pit, fill it with rock and rebar and pour a bazillion truckloads of concrete into the fill it. The new audiophile foundation cost me plenty, you can be sure of that.
That's why my REL T5 does not need special footers or even springs.
WOW, it makes me wonder if people pay attention AT ALL.
There is no solid anything in a conventional domicile.
I had to pour a 22" thick by 24" wide x 18 foot long to get a base. Just to isolate gear correctly, and stop transfer from built in base traps. 10,500 pounds of concrete and a 5/8 rebar cage of sorts.. It is isolated from the 5.5 inch slab in the old metal shop.. LONG term project, LOL 33 years ago now. A really good concrete guy did the figuring a LONG time ago.. ZERO cost.. he paid for everything. REAL good friend.. RIP..
In Pete, sandy loam or bog forget it.. I can jump up and down and you can feel it 50 feet away.. 1/8 mile from my house it's just that way.. Tule Pete.
The last thing you want to do is put a subwoofer on springs. At some low frequency it will start shaking. Vibration/shaking in any speaker equals distortion.
@avanti1960 --
Speakers and subwoofers like to be solidly mounted to add structure to the enclosure, they do not like to be in micro motion.
Speakers and subwoofers like to be solidly mounted to add structure to the enclosure, they do not like to be in micro motion. The ONLY reason you would ever want to iso mount a speaker or subwoofer is if the energy of the speaker is transfering into something such that it is audibly resonating, e.g. a suspended wood floor. In that case you would introduce isolstion of some sort because not using it is worse than using isolation. isolation is a compromise solution, the speaker is now in micromotion. no isolation is always best if the speaker isnt causing something else to vibrate audibly.
Something else that is interesting about conventional VC drivers, they have a return spring sometimes TWO.
That which moves forward is pulled back and there is a dampening factor via the amp too, if it’s direct coupled.. Much like a shock that is used for dampening, more in one direction than the other. The exact reason for different bleed ratios between compression of the shock or the expansion of the shock.. AND then gas assist for speed.
Those shocks under your car or gas assist accumulator for the 200 lb rear door on soccer moms SUV. WORK to do different things..
But they sure work better than Fred Flintstones giddy up. Feet, A$$, and a little spotted hide. All the cushion Fred had.. Stone vacuum tubes, stone record player, Dodo bird for a stylus.. Thing change.. LOL
Innertubes work well, I’m telling you.. Now fill that innertube 1/2 way with water, I’ll bet you couldn’t stay in the room.. Water transfers LF pretty darn good.. Isn’t that the whole sonar thing.. It can be very destructive.
Air is fast enough. A more viscous material like different weights of oil would be slow enough. Both are very effective materials one for dampening one for isolation, BUT both in the same (for ease of application) flexible tube.
The initial shock, the air and tube take the brunt via expansion of the tube, then dampened by the oil. NOT amplified like a less viscous material would act..
It’s not rocket science but you do have to think a bit.. It’s right in there with the "Farmer Astronaut", HECK NO!... but a great example. Great movie. I’d forgotten about it.. I think I'll watch it...
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