Streaming, Getting the Signal, Then What?

Are you using coax cable from your PS Audio AirLens to your DAC?

No. Using I2S output.

Let me go one step further I bought a Motorola 8702  which it has Docsis 3.1 

 bigger buffer,faster processor ,even wifi picture better ,and I run Ethernet caleb

with a linear power supply a Must to this router  combo 

for digital house to house Not grounded ,and the $3wall wart pure rubbish just ads more noise , then at least a decent Ethernet switch LHY  SW-8 , this totally necessary to minimize noise ,before even better to the streamer ,Pure Noise coming in . A LPS a Must, as well as the Ethernet Switch.

@audioman58 Why is the switch necessary? I have DSL modem/router and an extender which gives me higher bandwidth wireless and an additional 4 ports. Why do I need a switch?

Note: You’re not the first person who has recommended this sort of system, I just don’t know what the switch does for me, and I thought you might. 

The cheap switches has no regulators judt ad noise

and the wall wart just multiplies more noise. The LHY switch only $600 and has a LPS power supply built in , plus a high quality temp controlled clock ,

the $20 specials have none of that and at least put in a low cst Pangea power cord..this is cheap my brother spent $4k and makes a Big improvements just for his switch. Linear Tube Audio $700 great LPS  for your router- modem combo.

Not true but okay. Fiber will clean it all up including your colon. 

P.S. forget tweaking Ethernet and network crap. That’s not where you’re going to see any ROI. What you have is fine. Just keep the network components away from your electronics and cables and don’t plug all that junk into the same circuit with your stereo. 

Ignore the bs about the ps audio ds dac mk1, the guy doesn’t know what he is talking about. He also doesn’t know that the airlens with i2s makes the ds sr dac sound better. He probably uses usb which is the worst sounding interface to use, the OP is doing it right by using i2s. Also, streaming is here to say, I sold my $15k tt setup with all my vinyl years ago when you do streaming right, it just sounds better. You also don’t need fiber optic converters. There is a simple trick to get your internal network sounding better for just a few bucks.

OP, send me a PM and I’ll help you. I’ve been streaming for 20 years, ex network guy, it’s very easy to setup. It doesn’t matter which router you use, which network you have, copper or fiber. 

Wrong. The mk2 is noisy according to reviewers, not the mk1 version. And it matters which input you are using. Maybe the usb is noisy, I would never use usb to any dac, but the i2s and Ethernet inputs are not noisy. Maybe you had an old release of the software because each software upgrade made a difference in sq. 
So I’m guessing you use usb, so you will never know what a dac can sound like at its best until you use i2s or Ethernet. Why do you think the airlens only has outputs for i2s or coax, because both of these sound better than usb.

I was just browsing the thread and feel I must add my 2 cents. When I had PS Audio transport and dac, the I2s interface was clearly better SQ than any other formats.

I agree with above comments to have your router and any wall-warts plugged into a different line than your stereo setup. Also using a LPS (linear power supply) on the router instead of the SMPS wall-wart is a major improvement in sonics and removes noise.

@veemike  Can you be specific about what is missing from your music playback or what improvements you seek?

Wrong again. More and more of your better dacs don’t use usb and more and more are adding i2s and Ethernet. USB is flawed, never meant to provide good sq. I did all of that 10 years ago or more with usb dacs and all the gimmicky reclockers, femto clocks, offramp devices, and others.

Talk about noise, you probably have a streamer/computer in your room which are much noisier than most dacs. Go back and read the reviews of the DS mk1 dac, nobody complained about noise. There is no mk iii dac, just the mkii which is noisy.

The only other dac that bettered the mk1 was the dcs at multiple times the cost with their Ethernet connection. I preferred the DS mk1 over the briscati, Berkeley, msb offerings, up to around $20k price range.

I'll be 70 this year and depending on your streaming  service your current setup should sound pretty darn good.  The PSAudio MK 1 is a nice DAC. I have one and it took me a ,long time to finally upgrade it. I fed mine with all the inputs USB, AES, I2S spidf and honestly while they have slight differences I couldn't walk into the room and identify the input without looking.

Trying to get your streamer the cleanist electrical signal might help.  If you use dimmer light switches turn them off or all the way on.  Removing any switching power supplies from the circuit and feeding the streamer with ethernet not WiFi is an easy way to optimize your sound.  I haven't tried all the tweaks like running my router with a LPS or replacing the Ethernet cable with fibre but in some instances it might reduce  background noise.

The biggest change to your sound without throwing money at it is to bypass the preamp and use the. DAC s volume control.

If you have a PS Audio Airlens, you should not be worried about this switch or  the other, a least this is what Paul McGowan says about the purpose ion this piece of equipment .... and I trust him.

You can test if you get a better listening experience using the Netgear Nighthawk or the one for the ISP but with the Airlens the difference should be nothing, cero.

Going down the road of tweaking the "ethernet connection" is a very expensive and frustrating one. Airlens should do it.

PS Audio is good stuff. There is much better, and if you have “much better”, there is always something better than what you have. Fact of life. As Stephen Stills once sang, “If you can’t be with the one you love, love the one you’re with”.

The PS Audio AirLens has galvanic isolation. Any network noise stops there.

A network switch is a 1 to many extender. Think of an AC outlet. Two cords are already plugged in and you want a third or fourth. What to do? You get a 1 to 3 outlet block (or corded extension). Switches simple give you more outlets for hardwired LANs. I have 81 devices on my home network. Most are WiFi, with 21 devices hardwired (my music streamer and movie server (Kaleidescape) being two of the 21 hardwired devices.

Streaming is digital. Like anything digital, it’s either on or off. If there is so much noise on the cable, then the modem may not be able to lock onto the signal, resulting in drops. Assuming the internet is stable, the AirLens or other streamers translate internet into digital out, which are not the same. How that is done is where you may begin to hear a difference in quality. However, it’s still a bunch of 1’s and 0’s after translation.

Now the DAC becomes important. This is the guy with the most sonic signature. How the input is delivered is important. PS Audio has chosen I2S to deliver the digital to the DAC for reasons they explain and believe to be best. Read/watch about the theory behind I2S and formulate your own opinion.

If using COAX (SPDIF) then issues can and arise. Jitter is the most detrimental to sound quality. How that is managed and mitigated in the DAC determines the quality of the analog sent to the speakers.

My experience with networking and audio:

I began with networking in 1983, when Novell was nearly the only game in town.

For most, understanding the two basic components of a network is important. Know what the following do: a) Modem b) Router. It’s also good to know what a switch is, managed or unmanaged. What comes out of a router is a LAN cable and WiFi.

Understand that a streamer connects you, the person, to a source somewhere. It works similar to tuning in a radio station. Be it Qobuz, Internet radio, or a local NAS device. It then organizes this connection into what we humans understand, music, labeled and named. Once we have the source material and it’s now in digital format, it still needs a DAC.

I built my current audio system with digital as the predominant front end source. I use a dCS Network Bridge. This is my streamer, an “AirLens” equivalent. This has the option to be externally clocked. I use a dCS Rossini Master Clock on the Network Bridge.

The output of the Network Bridge has a couple of options, and I use SPDIF.

Because I wanted to spin the occasional silver disc, CD or SACD, I decided upon the Esoteric K-01Xs. It’s a fine disc machine, but also a great standalone DAC.

The Esoteric has the option to be clocked, which it is with an Esoteric G-05 Master Clock. The difference without and with a master clock is not subtle. Having a master clock on a great DAC is stunning.

So, for the PS Audio music lover that asked the question: what to do to better his investment, I echo the comment: look at equipment that is downstream from the AirLens. Improving the audio chain from the DAC to the speakers will yield the greatest improvement.

The two main reasons to use your own router are cost and security. Internet providers tend to charge you a monthly rental fee which you can avoid by having your own equipment.

The other is security. Having your own router prevents a provider installed backdoor being used to get into your network. The number of times magic passwords have gotten into the wild is not zero, so is the number of times vendors have allowed zero-day exploits to go unpatched. .

There’s also the matter of features. For instance, if you wanted to use a mesh aware router, Wifi 7, etc.

Just make sure to set your router to auto-update to ensure any future security holes are patched and you’ll be fine.

Right now the bargains in Wifi routers are Wifi 6 capable unit which are being discounted now that Wifi 7 is out.  They'll serve you well for many years.

Keep your I2s connection as it is the best sounding connection for my streamer. I used to use USB but realized my CD transport connected with I2s sounded a hair less grainy. So I switch the transport to AES and used the I2s port for the streamer. Problem solved, they are now both on par. Everybody has an opinion and it is well represented here. I also like the cleaning the ethernet feed part. I use an optical isolation bundle with LPS into an ethernet switch before the streamer. I also use a master clock to time the switch, DDC and DAC. Everything matters is an expensive fact I have come to accept. Of course the choice of cables matters greatly, but that's another discussion that will take this one further into the weeds. Keep an open mind and experiment if you can. I am 70 also. Enjoy the journey.

Lots of the usual advice here. Is their anything about the current system that bothers you or makes you think you could or should do better?

Welcome to the rabbit hole of streaming. At least ten years into streaming, experimenting with so many devices and it continues to this day. In general, every single link in chain important, noise introduced at any point in chain is a loss one can never get back, clocking equally important. So, it begins with internet provider/speed (stability here) all the way through dac. As for guiding one as to specific solutions, look at all the advice given in this short thread, I'm sure much more to come. So many devices, so many opinions, where does one begin! I've gone down the road of experiential learning, some fails, some wins, still learning. Most recent experimentation is attempting to determine what is best input for dac, usb or I2S, I fully expect a unique outcome based on what dac used. Unique implementation of common technologies is replete in streaming and it goes on and on.

The AirLens is dumb. You cannot play via a remote app like most of us. No USB drive play. I cannot think of a worse choice for a first streamer.

It is built for DLNA. Good luck with that.

I don’t know what you want to do but it might be impossible as dreamed up.

Wow! I cannot believe how quickly my OP went off topic. No, I am not changing my "stupid" AirLens.  And no, at this point, my DirectStream DAC MK1 is not "on the chopping block."  I could not have been more clear in my OP, that the equipment I have is the equipment relevant to this discussion. 

Go take that discussion elsewhere please. 

I appreciate audioman58 starting in the right direction mentioning Motorola 8702 and LHY SW-8 switch.  Please stay on OP topic. Greatly appreciated. 

And to zlone, excellent point - no, there's nothing in my current setup that bothers me - nothing. I am just exploring a potential step up allowing my ISP signal to be possibly better than what I am experiencing through my current Netgear Nighthawk CAX80 modem/router device. 

Good test for quality of streaming chain. Streaming sound quality should be at least equal to cd's played over quality transport.

I feel so stupid not getting the streaming thing though at almost 70 years old I have moved more toward digital then any time previously.

At age 70, hearing quality dissipates and the ear lobes could start turning into cauliflowers. So, maximize the bang 4 buck on components and give the spare change to your struggling grandson instead.

Streamer: Wiim Ultra.

Price is around 300 bucks, very feature rich (full peq and some room correction, if needed), has a very polished easy to use user interface for senior citizens. It could sound very good on its own, but, if you insist on a external dac, it offers a USB out as well so the dac doesn’t depend on any timing from the streamer.

Externl Dac: Schiit Bifrost

Price is around 800 bucks. Run this great R2R dac in NOS mode and it’s all you may ever need.

Thanks eric_squire

The two main reasons to use your own router are cost and security....

Right now the bargains in Wifi routers are Wifi 6 capable unit which are being discounted now that Wifi 7 is out.  They'll serve you well for many years.

I own my Netgear Nighthawk and stay up to date. And my 1,000 sf. factory loft has minimal walls, 11' rough masonry ceilings. The modem/router is placed centrally. So mesh is not an issue. And it is Wifi 6 DOCSIS 3.1. It was a $500 unit in Jan. '22. 

Any other ON TOPIC suggestions to augment my current setup or possibly step up a grade or two from the Nighthawk? 

SNS

Good test for quality of streaming chain. Streaming sound quality should be at least equal to cd's played over quality transport.

Good point. Thanks. 

Try the JK Richards PS Audio DSD MKI upgrade for your DAC.

It dramatically improved the sound of my MK1.  @jkrichards 

danager

Trying to get your streamer the cleanist electrical signal might help.  If you use dimmer light switches turn them off or all the way on.  Removing any switching power supplies from the circuit and feeding the streamer with ethernet not WiFi is an easy way to optimize your sound.  I haven't tried all the tweaks like running my router with a LPS or replacing the Ethernet cable with fibre but in some instances it might reduce  background noise.

Interesting you should post this. In May '23 I completely rewired my listening area creating two 45' home runs from new, premium SquareD panel and replaced ALL my loft's 15/20amp breakers with premium breakers, all seated and torqued to manufacturer's spec using about $900 worth of McMaster-Carr silver paste. The two 45' home runs to my equipment is 8 gauge into separate PSA Power Port Classic receptacles. My electrician thought I was crazy. "You're the boss."  Mu sources are fed through a PSA PowerPlant 15.

Also, I like this and the input from audphile1

The biggest change to your sound without throwing money at it is to bypass the preamp and use the. DAC s volume control.  

I'll check back in tomorrow,,,

The biggest change to your sound without throwing money at it is to bypass the preamp and use the. DAC s volume control. 

I hate DAC volume controls. The only one that came close to the Benchmark LA4 preamp's volume control at ALL volume levels was the Lumin X1 which uses the LeedH algorithm. For me a DAC with a volume control is a bug and not a feature. 

Wow, I gotta say, reading that the DS Mk I is noisy and grainy threw me for a loop. I can say with 100% certainty that mine is neither of those things, quite the contrary. I absolutely would not change DACs if I were you. I'm sure there are better DACs in the world but not at anywhere near what the DS Mk I goes for these days. The dual I2S inputs are still pretty rare and such a nice feature to have. I2S definitely sounds better than other connections.

I have no experience with the AirLens but I doubt very seriously that's holding you back either. Fiber conversion did clean up my signal quite a bit and I have not noticed any of the bad side effects that some claim come with that method. I also run my signal through an Ether Regen (original version). I feed it with the fiber optic. I can't swear that makes a huge difference but it certainly doesn't hurt. I power the Ether Regen with a LPS.

I'm confident you'll get to the bottom of your issue and I don't think it'll cost you an arm and a leg either. If it were me I'd concentrate on the signal delivery to your components, which I think is what you're doing anyway.

If you are using a combination modem/router my one remaining suggestion is to use a gas discharge surge suppressor at the entrance of the cable to your building.

I use a lot of things which are Ethernet connected, and a surge coming in from outside via the cable modem could take a lot of things out. OTOH, if you are 100% Wifi, then the only risk is to your router.

I don’t think there’s a realistic router upgrade from what you own. The best you can do is perhaps use a PC/laptop or phone WIFI analyzer to make sure your router is on otherwise unused channels. Even a strong Wifi signal can suffer from noisy neighbors, and the analyzers are free.

New routers and receivers may have faster transmit speeds, but music streaming is lightweight. It’s not going to make anything sound better if you improve your download speeds by a factor of 100, but putting your router on unused channels will.  I think newer routers do a better job.  6 years ago they all seemed to cluster on the same 2 channels, causing a real headache for apartment dwellers.

Thanks all. I now see that erik_squires may be correct, that there may not be a realistic upgrade. I am going to print this thread and come to my own conclusion. Perhaps it is only tweaks that may conceivably make a small difference.

Thanks all. 

If you are using a combination modem/router my one remaining suggestion is to use a gas discharge surge suppressor at the entrance of the cable to your building.

I live in a 160 year old brick factory building condo-ized back in 2007. So I cannot access the entrance of the cable into the building.  I am going through an upmarket surge protector immediately in front of my modem/router.

The lowest hanging fruit if you deal with digital hires files or ripped rebook cd (i.e., you buy the albums and pay the artist a living wage) is...you get the Daniel Hertz Master Class Ssoftware ($600 ish) and you convert your digital files before playback...it takes care of anything .."digital-ish’ and makes it sound like analog tape., while retaining every pro of a hires studio master....no cons/pita of old master tape, no awful vinyl cons to deal with in the name of analog.

At that point, it doesn’t matter all that much if your dac sucked a bit or the streamer sucked worse...it doesn’t quite matter how neurotic one went with the ethernet & power infrastructure.

There are certain things that matter way more to the ear/central nervous system (towers over everything else) and Levinson appears to have somehow stumbled into or managed to get to the bottom of it.

What is i2s and whyis so good?

Your post title sounds like you’re having difficulty streaming.

If the AirLens is sufficient for you, great. I have a Mk I and all inputs sound the same as Ted designed it. Contrary to the faulty "wisdom" above.

If you’re looking for tweaks, the cited transformer upgrade is the most consequential.

I also have a mesh router, the only way I would go. With an Eno and a Bright Angel switch behind a node.

A Zero Surge should be sufficient in your situation.

Works for me.

Apologies @veemike  but some people seem to know how to quote and I can't figure it out... extract of your opening post follows:

"My PS Audio AirLens into a PS Audio DirectStream DAC MK1 gets its signal from a Netgear Nighthawk CAX80 modem/router purchased in Jan. '22.  I know I get a signal. I hear music play. Is this Netgear product better than the freebie that the ISP provider installs?  I think so. But following discussion FORUM I tend to think I may be able to do better, maybe?

So chime please as to what perhaps I should considered considering my AirLense & MK1 DAC. PLEASE, do not tell me why what I have could be so much better if.... This post presumes I have the equipment I have. From modem/router to sources is a high end AudioQuest ethernet cable product. That also is out of the equation for whomever wants to opine as to my cable choice.

Recommendations please."

If I read this correctly, not only are you not interested in any suggestions that you might improve your system at or after the AirLens streamer, you are also not interested in any suggestions that you consider replacing your "high end Audioquest ethernet cable product". You are therefore seeking only recommendations for a modem/router which might outperform the Nighthawk: is this correct?

If so, then you are pretty good as you are, as the only option you have is to replace the Nighthawk with a lower noise modem/router or to use a lower noise power supply on it or to do something just before your AirLens (see below).

The internet just works, digitally, and the only thing we need to worry about in the pre-streamer domain is noise. Ethernet is based on asynchronous packets of data with error checking so concerns like jitter are nonsense from a sound quality perspective.

However, even if we limit ourselves to commenting on your pre-streamer setup, there are things which you can explore and they focus on RFI noise which ultimately, via your streamer, can reach the analog(ue) parts of your DAC.

You don't say what your "high end" Audioquest ethernet cable is but I bet it's shielded and I bet the shield is grounded at both ends (if you have a multimeter or an ethernet cable tester you can easily test this). A shield grounded at both plugs will act as a conductor (the best conductors make the best shields after all, hence the prevalence of copper shields) and any noise picked up by or generated at the upstream component will reach the downstream component. The audible impact of this obviously varies from system to system as some domestic settings are noisier than others.

A switch installed just before your AirLens would substantially break the noise chain. I'd start with a cheap one as an experiment. A switch here is absolutely NOT here as a port replicator; as audiophiles, we seek to exploit a side effect of how switches work which is that they forward the digital data packets from one port to another but, to a greater or lesser extent, they don't onward transmit the RFI noise.

If you do decide to experiment, buy something like a Zyxel GS108B and position it just before your streamer. Plug the high end Audioquest into this but, crucially, from the switch to the streamer either use a short (ideally 0.5m) unshielded Cat 6 cable or a shielded cable known not to have the shield grounded at both ends (like the Melco C100). Do not use a Cat 8 or most audio-specific network cables here as the shield will be grounded at both ends and the RFI noise stopped by the switch will simply travel down the shield from one plug to the other.

Buying and installing a cheap switch like the Zyxel and a 0.5m Cat 6 (or even 1m Melco C100) is a cheap experiment.

As a matter of interest, please tell me/us how long your Audioquest ethernet cable is and what model it is. This may or may not make a difference. Thank you

Veemeke, You haven't stated what you don't like about the sound of your system. What do you feel you're missing? I'm struggling to understand what are you trying to achieve. Personally I don't believe that investing money in network/router will make much if any audible difference. Netgear is reliable router. Are you streaming music from local library or some streaming service or both? If both do you hear difference in sound and is it coming from local library or streaming service?

@veemike 

Have you tried a filter? One thinks they have no grain in their streaming, until they try something that removes more noise and grain and then they realize they actually did. 

I use an etheregen and it works. Money back guarantee- Alex (Uptone) has sold over 3,000 of these and had about 5 returns which says something. 

The newer one on the block is the smoothlan, also a money back guarantee. I haven't tried it yet, but for under $300 it is a no-brainer. 

check out this thread: some including the OP use both the etheregen and the smoothlan and claim improvements. 

If you have a larger budget for a switch/ filtering this may be the best option: Tempus I have read good things about it- feel free to browse user's reviews of it. 

*you know what? I just re-read my comments above regarding the smoothlan being a no-brainer, and I am going to put my money where my mouth is - just ordered one- I'll post in the above thread my impressions of it. 

Mclinnguy is right Etheregen is great. Audio became a little quieter.  It immediately improved detail in LED TV picture too. 

The newer one on the block is the smoothlan, also a money back guarantee. I haven't tried it yet, but for under $300 it is a no-brainer. 

Thanks tshark, mclinnguy and nigeltheflash. This is exactly what my OP requested; working with what I already have massaging my source/stream into my AirLense. 

@veemike 

You are making my life a bit easier ( also at 70 years of age ) as I am in the same situation and looking to improve my digital streaming environment with some solid gear in place - cabling, streamer, DAC.  I have watched a number of videos on this and sought out and read most of the posts here on potential routes to follow.  I cant offer advice yet but can confirm the path I am heading down as it follows a similar thread to what @tshark and the others you mentioned above have suggested.  My approach is three pronged with LPSU's, a switch/switches, and some type of filter.  I ordered last week an LHY LPSU for my router and am looking next to add a switch - something like the DLink or the Zyxel mentioned in the post above.  This is an inexpensive way to see how the switch works in the chain.  If this provides some improvement, I am than willing to invest in a switch such as the LHY SW6 or similar.  Lastly I will look at the various ethernet filters - something like the Etheregen, Smoothlan, or possibly a bit pricer Network Accoustics network filter.  Taking this approach I can see how each step impacts the streaming and its a somewhat minimal investment vs new components.  Not offering "coaching" but my 70 year thoughts as to what you are thinking through.  Good luck and thanks for the thread! 

I am over 70 as well and what I do not want to spend my time screwing around with electronics… and especially not the network (I was in IT most of my career). Just buy a better streamer. A great streamer will isolate you from the network. I have swapped enough routers and extenders and Ethernet regenerators. I just have great streamers. My Aurrender on my main system sounds as good as my great $45K vinyl leg. Life is too short to waste time stringing stuff together to improve the network (at least for me, I am not bored) when I can just have one good streamer.

@ghdprentice +1

all you need with a good streamer is basic solid network setup which is either hard wired from router, mesh or extender with a good Ethernet cable. I use amazon EERO with Purist Audio Ethernet cable and iFi LAN iSilencer passive filter between the Purist and Aurender N200. I keep the iFi filter in mostly because, inlike the fiber optic converters and the Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System that I owned, it doesn’t hurt anything and it’s cheap. Not even sure it improves sound quality as I’ve compared with and without numerous times and can barely tell it’s there on some recordings. 
The Purist Ethernet cable is a small but audible improvement in sound quality. Less so with Aurender than with other streamers I had due to Aurender caching data to its built in internal SSD that helps clean everything up.

But some people like to tinker with the network stuff as it’s a low hanging fruit that’s entertaining and cheap compared to getting a proper streamer. To each his own. 

Check out Small Green Computer and get an FMC bundle for $99 on sale now.  It turns your noisy cable into fiber optical that will clean up the noise.  A cheap solution that works.

@ghdprentice  Absolutely agree as a fellow 70 year old to your sage advice re getting a really good streamer.  You in fact influenced me earlier this year and I ended up investing more and upscaling my original plan - purchased an Aurender N200.  However, being a bit curious I am adding a quality LPSU to my router, which arrives next week.  I will be interested if I can hear any difference and report back.  Not a big investment but would urge those with an entry level streamer to put their dollars in upgrading at the streamer level first.