Streaming, Getting the Signal, Then What?

Your post title sounds like you’re having difficulty streaming.

If the AirLens is sufficient for you, great. I have a Mk I and all inputs sound the same as Ted designed it. Contrary to the faulty "wisdom" above.

If you’re looking for tweaks, the cited transformer upgrade is the most consequential.

I also have a mesh router, the only way I would go. With an Eno and a Bright Angel switch behind a node.

A Zero Surge should be sufficient in your situation.

Works for me.

What is i2s and whyis so good?

The lowest hanging fruit if you deal with digital hires files or ripped rebook cd (i.e., you buy the albums and pay the artist a living wage) is...you get the Daniel Hertz Master Class Ssoftware ($600 ish) and you convert your digital files before playback...it takes care of anything .."digital-ish’ and makes it sound like analog tape., while retaining every pro of a hires studio master....no cons/pita of old master tape, no awful vinyl cons to deal with in the name of analog.

At that point, it doesn’t matter all that much if your dac sucked a bit or the streamer sucked worse...it doesn’t quite matter how neurotic one went with the ethernet & power infrastructure.

There are certain things that matter way more to the ear/central nervous system (towers over everything else) and Levinson appears to have somehow stumbled into or managed to get to the bottom of it.

If you are using a combination modem/router my one remaining suggestion is to use a gas discharge surge suppressor at the entrance of the cable to your building.

I live in a 160 year old brick factory building condo-ized back in 2007. So I cannot access the entrance of the cable into the building.  I am going through an upmarket surge protector immediately in front of my modem/router.

Thanks all. I now see that erik_squires may be correct, that there may not be a realistic upgrade. I am going to print this thread and come to my own conclusion. Perhaps it is only tweaks that may conceivably make a small difference.

Thanks all. 

If you are using a combination modem/router my one remaining suggestion is to use a gas discharge surge suppressor at the entrance of the cable to your building.

I use a lot of things which are Ethernet connected, and a surge coming in from outside via the cable modem could take a lot of things out. OTOH, if you are 100% Wifi, then the only risk is to your router.

I don’t think there’s a realistic router upgrade from what you own. The best you can do is perhaps use a PC/laptop or phone WIFI analyzer to make sure your router is on otherwise unused channels. Even a strong Wifi signal can suffer from noisy neighbors, and the analyzers are free.

New routers and receivers may have faster transmit speeds, but music streaming is lightweight. It’s not going to make anything sound better if you improve your download speeds by a factor of 100, but putting your router on unused channels will.  I think newer routers do a better job.  6 years ago they all seemed to cluster on the same 2 channels, causing a real headache for apartment dwellers.

@veemike you are soliciting recommendations without specifying the problem you’re trying to solve. Don’t know why you’re so surprised that you’re getting recommendations from every possible angle. 
Sounds like your objective is to tackle the low hanging fruit which in this case is your network chain, and add switches, converters , filters and linear power supplies. The easiest and the cheapest game to play. Until you look at how much you had spent and what you got back sonically as ROI. 

Remember, the real improvement is in the components, not tweaks. 

Also, I wasn’t the one who recommended eliminating your preamp. Don’t want to take the credit for the idea that I think is a one step forward two steps back type deal. 

Anyway, good luck to you and keep us posted. 

Wow, I gotta say, reading that the DS Mk I is noisy and grainy threw me for a loop. I can say with 100% certainty that mine is neither of those things, quite the contrary. I absolutely would not change DACs if I were you. I'm sure there are better DACs in the world but not at anywhere near what the DS Mk I goes for these days. The dual I2S inputs are still pretty rare and such a nice feature to have. I2S definitely sounds better than other connections.

I have no experience with the AirLens but I doubt very seriously that's holding you back either. Fiber conversion did clean up my signal quite a bit and I have not noticed any of the bad side effects that some claim come with that method. I also run my signal through an Ether Regen (original version). I feed it with the fiber optic. I can't swear that makes a huge difference but it certainly doesn't hurt. I power the Ether Regen with a LPS.

I'm confident you'll get to the bottom of your issue and I don't think it'll cost you an arm and a leg either. If it were me I'd concentrate on the signal delivery to your components, which I think is what you're doing anyway.

The biggest change to your sound without throwing money at it is to bypass the preamp and use the. DAC s volume control. 

I hate DAC volume controls. The only one that came close to the Benchmark LA4 preamp's volume control at ALL volume levels was the Lumin X1 which uses the LeedH algorithm. For me a DAC with a volume control is a bug and not a feature. 

danager

Trying to get your streamer the cleanist electrical signal might help.  If you use dimmer light switches turn them off or all the way on.  Removing any switching power supplies from the circuit and feeding the streamer with ethernet not WiFi is an easy way to optimize your sound.  I haven't tried all the tweaks like running my router with a LPS or replacing the Ethernet cable with fibre but in some instances it might reduce  background noise.

Interesting you should post this. In May '23 I completely rewired my listening area creating two 45' home runs from new, premium SquareD panel and replaced ALL my loft's 15/20amp breakers with premium breakers, all seated and torqued to manufacturer's spec using about $900 worth of McMaster-Carr silver paste. The two 45' home runs to my equipment is 8 gauge into separate PSA Power Port Classic receptacles. My electrician thought I was crazy. "You're the boss."  Mu sources are fed through a PSA PowerPlant 15.

Also, I like this and the input from audphile1

The biggest change to your sound without throwing money at it is to bypass the preamp and use the. DAC s volume control.  

I'll check back in tomorrow,,,

Try the JK Richards PS Audio DSD MKI upgrade for your DAC.

It dramatically improved the sound of my MK1.  @jkrichards 

SNS

Good test for quality of streaming chain. Streaming sound quality should be at least equal to cd's played over quality transport.

Good point. Thanks. 

Thanks eric_squire

The two main reasons to use your own router are cost and security....

Right now the bargains in Wifi routers are Wifi 6 capable unit which are being discounted now that Wifi 7 is out.  They'll serve you well for many years.

I own my Netgear Nighthawk and stay up to date. And my 1,000 sf. factory loft has minimal walls, 11' rough masonry ceilings. The modem/router is placed centrally. So mesh is not an issue. And it is Wifi 6 DOCSIS 3.1. It was a $500 unit in Jan. '22. 

Any other ON TOPIC suggestions to augment my current setup or possibly step up a grade or two from the Nighthawk? 

I feel so stupid not getting the streaming thing though at almost 70 years old I have moved more toward digital then any time previously.

At age 70, hearing quality dissipates and the ear lobes could start turning into cauliflowers. So, maximize the bang 4 buck on components and give the spare change to your struggling grandson instead.

Streamer: Wiim Ultra.

Price is around 300 bucks, very feature rich (full peq and some room correction, if needed), has a very polished easy to use user interface for senior citizens. It could sound very good on its own, but, if you insist on a external dac, it offers a USB out as well so the dac doesn’t depend on any timing from the streamer.

Externl Dac: Schiit Bifrost

Price is around 800 bucks. Run this great R2R dac in NOS mode and it’s all you may ever need.

Good test for quality of streaming chain. Streaming sound quality should be at least equal to cd's played over quality transport.

Wow! I cannot believe how quickly my OP went off topic. No, I am not changing my "stupid" AirLens.  And no, at this point, my DirectStream DAC MK1 is not "on the chopping block."  I could not have been more clear in my OP, that the equipment I have is the equipment relevant to this discussion. 

Go take that discussion elsewhere please. 

I appreciate audioman58 starting in the right direction mentioning Motorola 8702 and LHY SW-8 switch.  Please stay on OP topic. Greatly appreciated. 

And to zlone, excellent point - no, there's nothing in my current setup that bothers me - nothing. I am just exploring a potential step up allowing my ISP signal to be possibly better than what I am experiencing through my current Netgear Nighthawk CAX80 modem/router device. 

The AirLens is dumb. You cannot play via a remote app like most of us. No USB drive play. I cannot think of a worse choice for a first streamer.

It is built for DLNA. Good luck with that.

I don’t know what you want to do but it might be impossible as dreamed up.

Welcome to the rabbit hole of streaming. At least ten years into streaming, experimenting with so many devices and it continues to this day. In general, every single link in chain important, noise introduced at any point in chain is a loss one can never get back, clocking equally important. So, it begins with internet provider/speed (stability here) all the way through dac. As for guiding one as to specific solutions, look at all the advice given in this short thread, I'm sure much more to come. So many devices, so many opinions, where does one begin! I've gone down the road of experiential learning, some fails, some wins, still learning. Most recent experimentation is attempting to determine what is best input for dac, usb or I2S, I fully expect a unique outcome based on what dac used. Unique implementation of common technologies is replete in streaming and it goes on and on.

Lots of the usual advice here. Is their anything about the current system that bothers you or makes you think you could or should do better?

Keep your I2s connection as it is the best sounding connection for my streamer. I used to use USB but realized my CD transport connected with I2s sounded a hair less grainy. So I switch the transport to AES and used the I2s port for the streamer. Problem solved, they are now both on par. Everybody has an opinion and it is well represented here. I also like the cleaning the ethernet feed part. I use an optical isolation bundle with LPS into an ethernet switch before the streamer. I also use a master clock to time the switch, DDC and DAC. Everything matters is an expensive fact I have come to accept. Of course the choice of cables matters greatly, but that's another discussion that will take this one further into the weeds. Keep an open mind and experiment if you can. I am 70 also. Enjoy the journey.

The two main reasons to use your own router are cost and security. Internet providers tend to charge you a monthly rental fee which you can avoid by having your own equipment.

The other is security. Having your own router prevents a provider installed backdoor being used to get into your network. The number of times magic passwords have gotten into the wild is not zero, so is the number of times vendors have allowed zero-day exploits to go unpatched. .

There’s also the matter of features. For instance, if you wanted to use a mesh aware router, Wifi 7, etc.

Just make sure to set your router to auto-update to ensure any future security holes are patched and you’ll be fine.

Right now the bargains in Wifi routers are Wifi 6 capable unit which are being discounted now that Wifi 7 is out.  They'll serve you well for many years.

PS Audio is good stuff. There is much better, and if you have “much better”, there is always something better than what you have. Fact of life. As Stephen Stills once sang, “If you can’t be with the one you love, love the one you’re with”.

The PS Audio AirLens has galvanic isolation. Any network noise stops there.

A network switch is a 1 to many extender. Think of an AC outlet. Two cords are already plugged in and you want a third or fourth. What to do? You get a 1 to 3 outlet block (or corded extension). Switches simple give you more outlets for hardwired LANs. I have 81 devices on my home network. Most are WiFi, with 21 devices hardwired (my music streamer and movie server (Kaleidescape) being two of the 21 hardwired devices.

Streaming is digital. Like anything digital, it’s either on or off. If there is so much noise on the cable, then the modem may not be able to lock onto the signal, resulting in drops. Assuming the internet is stable, the AirLens or other streamers translate internet into digital out, which are not the same. How that is done is where you may begin to hear a difference in quality. However, it’s still a bunch of 1’s and 0’s after translation.

Now the DAC becomes important. This is the guy with the most sonic signature. How the input is delivered is important. PS Audio has chosen I2S to deliver the digital to the DAC for reasons they explain and believe to be best. Read/watch about the theory behind I2S and formulate your own opinion.

If using COAX (SPDIF) then issues can and arise. Jitter is the most detrimental to sound quality. How that is managed and mitigated in the DAC determines the quality of the analog sent to the speakers.

My experience with networking and audio:

I began with networking in 1983, when Novell was nearly the only game in town.

For most, understanding the two basic components of a network is important. Know what the following do: a) Modem b) Router. It’s also good to know what a switch is, managed or unmanaged. What comes out of a router is a LAN cable and WiFi.

Understand that a streamer connects you, the person, to a source somewhere. It works similar to tuning in a radio station. Be it Qobuz, Internet radio, or a local NAS device. It then organizes this connection into what we humans understand, music, labeled and named. Once we have the source material and it’s now in digital format, it still needs a DAC.

I built my current audio system with digital as the predominant front end source. I use a dCS Network Bridge. This is my streamer, an “AirLens” equivalent. This has the option to be externally clocked. I use a dCS Rossini Master Clock on the Network Bridge.

The output of the Network Bridge has a couple of options, and I use SPDIF.

Because I wanted to spin the occasional silver disc, CD or SACD, I decided upon the Esoteric K-01Xs. It’s a fine disc machine, but also a great standalone DAC.

The Esoteric has the option to be clocked, which it is with an Esoteric G-05 Master Clock. The difference without and with a master clock is not subtle. Having a master clock on a great DAC is stunning.

So, for the PS Audio music lover that asked the question: what to do to better his investment, I echo the comment: look at equipment that is downstream from the AirLens. Improving the audio chain from the DAC to the speakers will yield the greatest improvement.

If you have a PS Audio Airlens, you should not be worried about this switch or  the other, a least this is what Paul McGowan says about the purpose ion this piece of equipment .... and I trust him.

You can test if you get a better listening experience using the Netgear Nighthawk or the one for the ISP but with the Airlens the difference should be nothing, cero.

Going down the road of tweaking the "ethernet connection" is a very expensive and frustrating one. Airlens should do it.

One other note with the DSD MkI - it reacts well to power cord changes. Having a good power cable on it is key. I tried AQ Tornado, Nordost Heimdall 2 and Nordost Frey 2. Tornado was the worst. Both Nordost cables were an upgrade in sound quality. Ended up with Frey 2 on the DAC and improved sound quality big time.
Worth considering if you’re not looking to upgrade the DAC. May be even give a good power conditioner a try for it. Anything that can help its power supply will improve sound quality.

As to the comment about bypassing preamp and using the DAC’s volume control to improve sound…what you accomplish by doing that is reducing the noise as you are no longer driving your preamp with a line lever signal from the PS Audio DAC. Your volume is between 60-80 when using DAC as preamp vs 92-99 when driving the preamplifier with a line level output. Lowering output volume you are lowering audible noise. Lower noise floor is better sound as tonally there’s nothing wrong with this DAC’s ability to render natural sound. But in reality it isn’t  a substitute for a good preamp. My Pass XP22 easily beat it in soundstage, layering and dynamics. It’s essential to have a good preamp in the chain. 

I'll be 70 this year and depending on your streaming  service your current setup should sound pretty darn good.  The PSAudio MK 1 is a nice DAC. I have one and it took me a ,long time to finally upgrade it. I fed mine with all the inputs USB, AES, I2S spidf and honestly while they have slight differences I couldn't walk into the room and identify the input without looking.

Trying to get your streamer the cleanist electrical signal might help.  If you use dimmer light switches turn them off or all the way on.  Removing any switching power supplies from the circuit and feeding the streamer with ethernet not WiFi is an easy way to optimize your sound.  I haven't tried all the tweaks like running my router with a LPS or replacing the Ethernet cable with fibre but in some instances it might reduce  background noise.

The biggest change to your sound without throwing money at it is to bypass the preamp and use the. DAC s volume control.

Wrong again. More and more of your better dacs don’t use usb and more and more are adding i2s and Ethernet. USB is flawed, never meant to provide good sq. I did all of that 10 years ago or more with usb dacs and all the gimmicky reclockers, femto clocks, offramp devices, and others.

Talk about noise, you probably have a streamer/computer in your room which are much noisier than most dacs. Go back and read the reviews of the DS mk1 dac, nobody complained about noise. There is no mk iii dac, just the mkii which is noisy.

The only other dac that bettered the mk1 was the dcs at multiple times the cost with their Ethernet connection. I preferred the DS mk1 over the briscati, Berkeley, msb offerings, up to around $20k price range.

Yes PS Audio probably paid more attention to i2s as an interface between their components. And I don’t doubt their DACs sound best using i2s. However, my point is you can do much better than the PS Audio DAC. Even though I appreciated the sound quality and musicality of the DSD MkI that noise floor is a deal breaker. To lower it I had to set volume on DAC to 92. Made it slightly better but ultimately I gave up. There’s no i2s connection that will fix that guys. Com-on now…

I was just browsing the thread and feel I must add my 2 cents. When I had PS Audio transport and dac, the I2s interface was clearly better SQ than any other formats.

I agree with above comments to have your router and any wall-warts plugged into a different line than your stereo setup. Also using a LPS (linear power supply) on the router instead of the SMPS wall-wart is a major improvement in sonics and removes noise.

@veemike  Can you be specific about what is missing from your music playback or what improvements you seek?

@rbstehno just FYI…

coax and AES/EBU interfaces rely on the transport clock first and foremost and require a top notch clock like the expensive OCXO clock used in the best streamers, transports and DDCs. Using this high quality clock you minimize timing errors, jitter, noise etc. If a transport or streamer doesn’t feature highest quality clock, USB interface would typically sound better but that also somewhat depends on the USB implementation in the DAC. Typically it isn’t an issue in modern DACs. Therefore some really well designed streamers have a dedicated and optimized USB out. Case in point is my Aurender N200. It sounds best via USB pretty much with any decent DAC.
The i2s output isn’t much different from USB interface its implementation as far as streaming music between a streamer and DAC is concerned. And largely it’s a bit of a gimmick. If you use a really good USB cable between two well designed and optimized components, there is absolutely zero issue with USB interface.
You are making a blanket statement about the inferiority of USB. And this shows that indeed you are the one who doesn’t what he’s talking about.

As to PS DSD MlII yes the reviews state it’s noisy but it’s a good sounding DAC and is most likely better than MkI. Ted Smith can deal with noise by means of FPGA in the digital domain but unfortunately the MkI suffered from noise in the analog stage due to power supply design, transformers used on its XLR outputs and few other impediments that they had allegedly worked out in the MkII version.
Watch Ted’s interview on YouTube where he talks about the MkII with Paul. Regardless of their claims, I would get a DAC from some of the other manufacturers who managed to design a quiet low noise floor DAC and retain musicality at the same time.

Wrong. The mk2 is noisy according to reviewers, not the mk1 version. And it matters which input you are using. Maybe the usb is noisy, I would never use usb to any dac, but the i2s and Ethernet inputs are not noisy. Maybe you had an old release of the software because each software upgrade made a difference in sq. 
So I’m guessing you use usb, so you will never know what a dac can sound like at its best until you use i2s or Ethernet. Why do you think the airlens only has outputs for i2s or coax, because both of these sound better than usb.

Lol ok @rbstehno 

OP…
Even if the airlens makes the DSD DAC sound better via i2s than the USB or any other interface, and I don’t doubt that at all, this DAC’s worst enemy is noise and it’s in the analog stage. So no matter what you use the DAC sounds like it does - noisy, with tamed transients and rolled off. And noise is the enemy of good sound. 

Ignore the bs about the ps audio ds dac mk1, the guy doesn’t know what he is talking about. He also doesn’t know that the airlens with i2s makes the ds sr dac sound better. He probably uses usb which is the worst sounding interface to use, the OP is doing it right by using i2s. Also, streaming is here to say, I sold my $15k tt setup with all my vinyl years ago when you do streaming right, it just sounds better. You also don’t need fiber optic converters. There is a simple trick to get your internal network sounding better for just a few bucks.

OP, send me a PM and I’ll help you. I’ve been streaming for 20 years, ex network guy, it’s very easy to setup. It doesn’t matter which router you use, which network you have, copper or fiber. 

I have a pair of fiber converters collecting dust.
1. when you have a really good streamer with properly done network module implementation you don’t need tweaks. All you need is clean power and good digital cable to feed a good DAC  

2. Fiber optic converters used with a streamer built for copper Ethernet in my experience made the sound worse - artificial and glassy. And I tried it with 3 different streamers. Waste of time, money and space. The only thing you’ll accomplish is add more clutter. But…different folks different strokes. I direct funds towards better components but if you are a tweaker, knock yourself out!

Not true but okay. Fiber will clean it all up including your colon. 

P.S. forget tweaking Ethernet and network crap. That’s not where you’re going to see any ROI. What you have is fine. Just keep the network components away from your electronics and cables and don’t plug all that junk into the same circuit with your stereo. 

PS Audio DSD MkI DAC is your first item on the chopping block.
I had and enjoyed this DAC but it’s noisy, grainy and a bit too reserved when it comes to dynamics. I would focus on getting a DAC first and would not make I2s a requirement. You can use coax out if the AirLens to start with then upgrade to a better streamer.
What’s the budget you’re working with?

P.S. forget tweaking Ethernet and network crap. That’s not where you’re going to see any ROI. What you have is fine. Just keep the network components away from your electronics and cables and don’t plug all that junk into the same circuit with your stereo. 

The cheap switches has no regulators judt ad noise

and the wall wart just multiplies more noise. The LHY switch only $600 and has a LPS power supply built in , plus a high quality temp controlled clock ,

the $20 specials have none of that and at least put in a low cst Pangea power cord..this is cheap my brother spent $4k and makes a Big improvements just for his switch. Linear Tube Audio $700 great LPS  for your router- modem combo.

@audioman58 Why is the switch necessary? I have DSL modem/router and an extender which gives me higher bandwidth wireless and an additional 4 ports. Why do I need a switch?

Note: You’re not the first person who has recommended this sort of system, I just don’t know what the switch does for me, and I thought you might. 

Let me go one step further I bought a Motorola 8702  which it has Docsis 3.1 

 bigger buffer,faster processor ,even wifi picture better ,and I run Ethernet caleb

with a linear power supply a Must to this router  combo 

for digital house to house Not grounded ,and the $3wall wart pure rubbish just ads more noise , then at least a decent Ethernet switch LHY  SW-8 , this totally necessary to minimize noise ,before even better to the streamer ,Pure Noise coming in . A LPS a Must, as well as the Ethernet Switch.

No. Using I2S output.

Are you using coax cable from your PS Audio AirLens to your DAC?