The AMT (Air Motion Transformer) and it's "derivatives" have excellent transient response. It's a matter of whether the rest of the components can keep up.
Speakers for leading edge, transients, speed and big sound
Hello- I am looking to spend about 20-30k on used speakers ( guessing they would have been -40K new a few years back). Any suggestions welcome. I have a 14*20 room and I am looking for dynamics, potentially a great sounding horn or equivalent. Excited by Tektons but since I have the budget wondering if there's anything better. I did have the JBL M2s that I really enjoyed and Revel Salon 2s that I didn't so much
Thank you!
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I’ll definitely toss a vote in for Volti. I’m not a horn guy, per se, but I heard some large Volti speakers at AXPONA and I was kinda blown away. They were playing a Dean Martin recording and it did sound rather awesome. They landed in my “cost no object” top five speakers at the show. If I had the money and the room, I’d be listening to them right now. Dave |
Interestingly, you have to keep a supply of ionized gas around which in effect acts as the diaphragm as the plasma excites the atoms of whatever gas it is producing sound. When the gas floats away or is dissipated though, no more sound. Not very practical or I would assume, cheap. In reality, no one has ever improved on the good old dynamic driver which people in the know are always coming up with new ways to configure and implement this legacy technology to achieve whatever sonic milestone they desire for less money and hassle and what the market will rationally except.
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You never mentioned your amp ,preamp, very important . B&W 802 series 4, Wilson Sasha DAW, FOCAL Sopra-3, Magico, Rockport to just name a few . many others use cheap XOVER NET WORKS , WHICH I HAVE REBUILT especially the first names mentioned the XOVER is the heart or the brain of the loudspeaker. Look at all the details .before you try and or buy. |
Pure Audio Project Quintet gets you there, under budget too. Quintet15 - PureAudioProject |
Given you stated that the room will remain untreated, it may already been brought up...but I would include a serious room correction capability with any proposed speaker setup. ARC (Anthem) and Dirac are popular and somewhat user friendly options....I've used and have been pleased with Anthem but also treated my dedicated room. Speaker wise, a nice pair of any of the larger Martin Logan offerings will put you in the middle of the concert. Enjoy your search. |
https://audio-connexion.com/odeon-audio-tosca-2020-floorstanding-loudspeakers-poplar. I recently purchased the Izumi monitor model, which has the same tweeter and woofer, and could not be happier, I have owned probably a dozen or more monitors, T+A, Raidho, Canton, Audiovector, TAD,.. and these win. Hopefully someone will snag these at a great price! Leading edge, transients and speed are all there. |
One of the best speakers I ever heard were the Yamaha NS1000. They make a new series in the place of the NS1000s which are the NS5000 speakers. Worth a listen. https://youtu.be/SJ14fyv9xZo?si=fNHDxfQrs6X3BM_2 The other was the ESS with the Air Motion transformers. They were the model with a 12" woofer in a square cabinet with the AMT sitting on top of each woofer. I think a company still makes them. |
+1 more for the JBLs. And no dicking around on eBay or Reverb, or some garage-built, unserviceable wet-dream of questionable provenance. Just world-class engineering and build quality, Plus a real warranty, and near-guaranteed resell ability. Music Direct: https://www.musicdirect.com/speakers/jbl-k2-s9900-tower-speakers-cherry-wood-grain-pair-open-box/ Oh yeah, they sound great - these are not honkmeisters like Klipsch and most other old-school horns. But they're not shy, either, Speaker with this kind design are going to have what you ask for - dynamics, speed, and big sound - in spades, and simply more of it than any cone speaker can deliver. No brag, just physics. https://www.whathifi.com/jbl/k2-s9900/review
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Where most speakers err in speed is the decay more than the attack. Poor decay muddles the sound and affects the next attack plus it reduces dynamics because it creates a higher noise floor for following tones. For what it's worth, Gordon Holt, the creator of Stereophile and the man responsible for the current form of audio reviewing did lots of live recording. The last speakers he paid for were ATC50a active speakers. He told me they were among the very few speakers that reproduced sound so it sounded like the live performances he recorded. Plus for what it's worth I've always been impressed with ATC speakers, especially the active versions. All things being equal active speakers are superior including transient behavior. |
Von Schweikert speakers with a easy placement due to their adjustable active bass. The more expensive models have more adjustments. The smaller, less expensive models play big, superior dispersion and adding a pair of 10" shockwave subs should power/balance the sound in moderately large size rooms. Otherwise, Rockports are balanced sounding with outstanding sonic characteristics. If you want precision over musicality, there are many modern speakers from Vivid, Magico, Wilson, B&W, Borressen, et.al. which will fill the bill, the bigger units with bigger, defined and fast bass. |
The low excursion drivers employ different kinds of surrounds, such as pleated fabric surrounds that sound cleaner to me, particularly at the upper end of the range the woofer is playing. I suppose there are technical/theoretical explanations why woofers sound as they do (e,g, low excursion woofers have much lower doppler effect frequency modulation), but I don’t know why but they often do sound good to me. Yes, iI hear plenty of good sounding systems employing small high excursion drivers, so I am merely saying that I like many of these old school woofers, not that any design is always better. |
@devinplombier Wrote:
Fast Bass, Slow Bass - Myth vs. Fact See Here. Choosing a woofer see here. Mike |
Mike, that old Lansing Heritage paper is a very good and very approachable analysis of woofer design, with the caveat of course that it is limited to JBL products (naturally). That other article is just one man’s opinionated screed. While I’ll be the last to dismiss the importance of a seamless and harmonious woofer-midrange integration (why so many planars fail), it isn’t the be-all and end-all and woofer quality does matter. Since we’re on the subject of "fast" bass I just want t point out that it is generally understood as not just how fast a woofer can accelerate to, say, 30 Hz (a low bar for sure), but perhaps more importantly how fast it stops. Hence the servo systems developed by Arnie Nudell and others that employed piezo accelerometers mounted on individual woofers to feed acceleration data to circuitry that controlled cone excursion in real time. @larryi I completely get your point. I guess it’s like tubes and vinyl in a way; despite the mess of stunted frequency responses, low channel separation and massive distortion they sound delightful. I get that the same goes for woofers. I strongly suspect that I couldn’t live happily with speakers that are down 6 dB at 55 Hz (JBL’s spec), but I respect those who see beyond that. An additional caveat is that I have not auditioned the K2, and I am open to the possibility that their sound somehow transcends their underwhelming spec. Wouldn’t be the first time such a thing happens 🙂
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I like the sound of the K2's but, this being a matter of personal taste, I don't think they are the best sounding horn-based systems. The overall tonal balance is, for me too light in upper bass/lower midrange such that it is a touch thin sounding as far as my ideal speaker is concerned. But, it certainly is a worthy candidate for consideration and might more completely fit someone else's taste preference. |
"If the woofer can reproduce 40Hz with low distortion, how fast the woofer starts is almost irrelevant (within reason of course). It only needs to accelerate fast enough to match the rise time of 40Hz at the fastest point along a 40Hz sine wave. If the woofer can do that, it is going as fast as it needs to in order to be as fast as fast can be -- at 40Hz."
This may be fine if you are just listening to sine waves. But what about a square wave or sawtooth wave where the woofer has to pop out to its maximum travel instantaneously? And please don’t say there are no square waves used in music. In fact, there is not a sine wave anywhere to be found on a MiniMoog.
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I’ll second the Legacy speakers. I had the original Focus and now have the Aeris with the Wavelet processor. The speakers are biamped, each with a 700-watt built-in woofer/subwoofer amp. They are not horn-loaded, but they do use custom-designed dual air motion tweeters and super tweeters. The Wavelet II is an electronic crossover, DAC, equalizer/processor, and preamp. It’s a phenomenal sounding system—dynamic, with an amazing soundstage, and has some of the tightest, best bass (in my opinion) I’ve heard in any home speaker system. It’s also incredibly efficient. Bill Dudleston is an amazing speaker-designer. You could buy the Aeris speakers with the Wavelet II processor new and stay within your budget. |
They use a pulsating plasma flame to excite the air itself. No need for an external gas supply. They're lifespan is extremely long, since there are no moving parts. Another company that uses ION tweeters, which I like even better than Acapelle, is Lansche audio. I heard their speakers at T.H.E. SHow last year. Their ION tweeter, if it needs to be replaced, is less expensive than other high end speaker's tweeters.
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Yes they are placement and need a big room (but what you're looking for in sound rather implies that); yes they need a LOT of amp power to function their best, yes they tall (but thin) but there's nothing faster than Magnepans. I think there is no better sounding speaker in any price bracket. And all the experts seem to live them and they crush the competition if you care about value. Demo them or they let you try at home for 30d for full refund if you don't like. |
Example of a short excursion woofer that @larryi is referencing see here. The JBL 2220 is a 15'' woofer with a short excursion and has a frequency range of 40 Hz-2 KHz while the JBL 2235 is a 15'' woofer with a long excursion and has a frequency range of 20 Hz-2 KHz. The 2235 woofer will reach two octaves lower in the bass than the 2220 woofer see here. Almost all HiFi woofers suffer from this problem (woofer dynamic offset) see below: ''Woofer dynamic offset is a problem long known about but seldom discussed or treated. With high input power at low frequencies, many woofers tend to shift their mean displacement forward or backward until the coil is nearly out of the gap. This is most likely to happen just above each low frequency impedance peak of a system. The result is a high level of second harmonic distortion and subjectively a bass character that loses its tightness at high acoustical output levels [4]. The cure for offset, as shown by T, H. Wiik [6], is a restoring spring force that increases in stiffness at high displacement in an amount that counterbalances the reduced B field at the extremes of voice coil travel. Such a nonlinear spider will in fact reduce distortion and eliminate the tendency to offset.'' See full article here. Mike |
@simonmoon Thanks, I very much appreciate your retort.
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@ditusa Bill Woodman who founded ATC in 1974 solved this problem by using "underslung" edge wound voice coils in a longer and tighter gap which eliminated the "offset" issue while reducing distortion up to 20dB throughout the driver's frequency range. In addition, this reduces the usual swings in impedance as well as radical changes in phase angels resulting in flat impedance response without resonances. The caveat being the need for enormous magnet structures along with considerable reduction in efficiency. Essentially though, you could use any type of amplifier typology to drive their speakers without harm to the amplifier but to get the speaker system to come alive you need minimally a hundred watts high current solid-state power.
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Reading about the Meyer Sound Bluehorn in the MIX magazine article (installation at the Fox soundstage for film soundtrack mixing) made me think of the original early efforts to bring sound to film using large horns, eventually augmented by woofers since the "snail" shaped horns did not deliver much bass. The Bluehorn seems to be a modern answer to large scale reproduction, taking advantage of current technology--active speakers with dedicated amps, using DSP to correct time and phase differences, etc. If you consider how well regarded some of the antiquarian theater reproduction systems are today (WE, Klangfilm, JBL), these may be their more modern incarnation. I did achieve a piece of this by combining the Avantgarde Duo with 15" subwoofers that use a relatively inexpensive outboard DSP system to flatten the response and got everything to gel the old fashioned way, through tuning by ear. But it's an unpredictable way to set up a system and it is obviously "tuned" to my preference in the room- not for perfectly flat response. And of course, much relies on the upstream equipment, all entirely tube based, utilizing expensive, hard to find old stock tubes. I'm not suggesting one go this route. (I gather the Avantgarde Trio has the option of utilizing their built-in electronics and crossovers to accomplish room integration at a price). There is something magical about the sound of a good horn system with SETs, though.... |
@devinplombier wrote:
The JBL specs are not really indicative of their true LF-capabilities, certainly not compared to the specs supplied by other hifi speaker manufacturers. Where JBL come from a pro history of relying on honest specs that openly reveal their specific measuring context, most hifi manufacturers on the other hand... do not. That is, the latter is somewhat more "creative" in their measuring approach, so take your own advice and listen to those K2 S9900’s before making any judgements. Be prepared though - the K2 bass reproduction may not be what you expect; many anticipate a 15" woofer/midrange is about prominent bass wallop and blow your socks off-SPL’s only, but the K2’s produce a balanced, nimble, tuneful, agile and effortless low frequency bass that in many regards is really what "hifi" bass should be about (but mostly is not). Being also that they play up to about 700Hz they cover the important power region without the interference of a crossover point here. Using a 15" that handles 700Hz while also being called to do LF is no small feat and involves compromises, but the 1500AL woofer (a fantastic piece of engineering in its own right) shows a way to do it with relatively few compromises. Having said that JBL has imposed design limitations on themselves trying to keep a manageable size factor, and to those of us who are not bothered by larger size and that dare to look outside the accepted brands, hifi segment and high price dogma, not to mention embracing actively configured speakers, there are even better options out there - and cheaper to boot. @larryi wrote:
+1 @whart wrote:
By all accounts the Meyer Sound Bluehorns are an all-out assault that sonically levels most any other speaker out there - regardless of price (the Bluehorns aren’t cheap themselves at about ~$100k/pair, or even more). However there are quite a few theater reproduction systems of older age and much lesser price that, well implemented, will still do bloody good and more than hold their own against many contemporary, and typically more compact, much more expensive domestic designs. I never heard them, but those Klangfilm horns (of considerable size) should be very well sounding, not least on tube gear. On the other hand I’m very familiar with the Vitavox Thunderbolt's and their quite rare Black Knight horn systems, and they sound great actively configured with high quality, class A/B studio SS amps. Bring on older Electro-Voice and JBL cinema speakers that can sound great as well when actively configured with quality DSP’s (XTA and Xilica). |
Phusis, Many good points are made in your excellent posting. It would indeed be challenging for a big woofer to handle frequencies up to 700 hz. A local builder uses quite sizeable horns and compression drivers that can go extremely low. I recently heard a system where the crossover from compression midrange to woofers was set at 180 hz with a very shallow 6 db/octave slope. The compression drivers were quite pricey, and if this were my system, I would insist on a higher crossover point and/or a 12 db/octave slope. The woofers are twin 18” woofers made to his specifications. The manufacturer insists on a minimum order of 40, and in the past three years or so, he has made three such orders. |
Thank you for your response. Your point about "hifi" bass and what it is / should be about is well taken. I do agree in principle, but I do like some slam too, and I'm not resigned to the two being mutually exclusive. I suspect that listening tastes play a part. For instance, I listen to a lot of electronic music. In any event, I was curious about this:
Wondering if you would care to elaborate on some specific options you have in mind? Thanks!
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@kofibaffour I really don't know why I gave up n the M2. Maybe I'll buy them again! That said, I heard some Wilson Chronosonics that I thought were better |
The perception of "slam", for example, has more to do with phase characteristics, not just drivers in a single speaker, but when more than 1 speaker is in a listening space, as would be the case with stereo or multichannel. Its an engineered solution present in a couple of brands inside pro audio...about which most "audiophile" brands have little to no clue ( i.e., the latter would prefer to keep spending up the clueless tree)
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https://atc.audio/professional/loudspeakers/scm100asl-pro/ |
Jay's Audio on Youtube announced this weekend that Von Schweikert speakers are comparable to Sonus Faber and Magico if they had a baby, high resolution, huge dynamics, huge soundstage and musicality. Even the new VR 30 speaker with a pair of 10" VS subs can fill a large room or balance a small room with the adjustable (not in DSP/digital domain) subs permitting easy speaker placement and fundamentals to shake your room. |
@faustuss Wrote:
Thanks for the post. Remember Bill Woodman and Edmond May see here. Mike |
Here's a Meyer Sound story FWIW. Around 2010 the studio I worked for was looking for monitors for a new room. We demoed a few contenders including a 15inch Meyer horn system. I don't remember the model but they were in the $25k range. We played both good and bad recordings in the testing to make sure we could hear the difference. The Meyers sounded fabulous on everything, even the known bad recordings. For that reason we chose another brand but that was for studio use. For home listening, they might be perfect. |
@ditusa Lovely! Thank you so much! "This profile opened with the assessment that Ed May was one of the most accomplished acoustic engineers of the past half century. This may seem to be overstating the case since the body of his published work is actually quite small. Nonetheless, the quality of his work, sheer output and influence in the industry speaks volumes. This is best exemplified by the quote at the end of this profile. It is by Bill Woodman, founder and senior designer for ATC Acoustic Engineers of Cotswold, England. ATC is one of the most respected manufacturers of high-end studio monitors and home speakers. Even though he never met Ed, here is what Bill had to say in a 2000 interview: "The man who inspired me mostly, in truth, was Ed May, one of the very early designers at JBL. A lot of the thinking he incorporated, we've incorporated into our design. All one can hope to do is better engineer what is already known""
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@larryi wrote:
That sounds extreme. I’m not aware of compression driver that goes that low, let alone comfortably (not least with a 1st order HP!), but there may be some field coil drivers to challenge that. The permanent magnet JBL 2490H is a 3" exit compression driver that can be crossed at ~300Hz without any issues, and the Community M4 is a 4" exit and ~40 pound beast that can be high-passed at 250Hz. Both have a sensitivity around 115dB’s and 200W continuous power handling, so about the ultimate in high SPL pure midrange compression drivers around. And definitely; on the face of it I’d use steeper slopes as well in the context lined out by you, in addition to raising the crossover frequency. @devinplombier wrote:
It’s not that the JBL K2’s don’t have "slam," far from it, but it’s the way they do bass overall that’s interesting and that differs from the typical low efficiency segment of "hifi" speakers with smaller woofers. Where I heard the K2’s I didn’t find them to be anemic in the upper bass/lower midrange per se as pointed to in another post, but rather what struck me was the coherency into the power region here, and how the bass was more articulate, tactile and less "bassy."
A pair of active Meyer Sound Acheron 80/100 cinema series speakers are a more refined sounding package than the K2’s and Everest’s, and they’re cheaper - even with built-in amps and crossovers. Pair them with the dual 18" Meyer Sound X-800 subs and they’ll run circles around the Everest’s in every regard, still being the cheaper solution. A pair of Stage Accompany M57 speakers, outboard actively configured and with high efficiency subs will leave the K2’s behind in quite a few respects, while being much cheaper. A pair of dual 15"-loaded, actively configured ATC SCM300ASL Pro are great speakers, and cheaper than the K2’s even with ATC outboard amps and crossovers. My own setup of outboard actively configured EV cinema speakers with large format horns, JBL alnico tweeters and tapped subs do things a pair of K2’s and Everest’s can’t equal - way cheaper, and yes, you’ll have to take my word for it. Vitavox Thunderbolt and Black Knight systems, outboard actively configured and horn subs augmented are dynamite setups. There are many more solutions, but what goes through it all is that they’re actively configured.
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saummisra I'll second the suggestions for Volti and Pure Audio Project. I would strongly consider the Volti Rival (100db sensitive so extremely easy to drive) and any of the Pure Audio Project Trio or Quintet lines (96db and also easy to drive). Each time I've heard them, they were brilliant. Both are in my final list of speakers to upgrade to later this year |
