Speaker distance

And that can ONLY be done with a careful long term program of room treatment plus the fabled XLO Test CD speaker placement track IMHO.

@geoffkait 

Hello Geoff. To your point about the XLO test cd, which I then had a follow up with you where you stated (paraphrasing) it's the "in phase followed by out of phase" track which is used (diffusion), I'm of the opinion that any purpose built cd with these types of tracks could be used effectively, correct?

For instance, in my case I use/have this one https://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1526639/a/denon+audio+technical+cd.htm&frm=www.cd...

Track 2 has in/out phase.

Your opinion is appreciated. Thanks.

That’s a tough one. One reason why it might appear that speaker distance varies according to the recording is because the venues of the various recordings are all different. You are supposed to hear those differences, no? In terms of space, soundstage, ambience, etc. And the differences should actually be MORE APPARENT if the speakers are placed in the absolute best locations. And that can ONLY be done with a careful long term program of room treatment plus the fabled XLO Test CD speaker placement track IMHO.

It seems to me that the ideal distance between the speakers varies from one recording to another depending on the mix and the instrumentation.  I notice with solo piano  and  with string quartets that no one setup satisfies every recording.  So I try to find a position that works most of the time.  Maybe we need moving sidewalks with remote controls that would allow us to easily place the speakers close together for say, a solo guitar and far apart for an orchestra or big band. 

What are the disadvantages of having to little or to much space
between your speakers?

It will not sound as "correct" as it otherwise *could*.

I have 3 pair of speakers,  they are all 3 home brew,  an mtm with 7" mid-bass drivers & ScanSpeak dome,  A 10" 3 way with Aluminum mids and ribbon tweeter and a 12 inch 2 way with Old ESS Heil AMT.  All 3 work very well in my current position.  
Speakers are 129 inches apart measuring tweeter center to center.  Then they are 129 inches to my ears. On one side of the room, speaker is 39 inches from a partial sidewall, on the other side, the room opens to another room,  the wall behind the speakers is right at 5 feet.  Depending on speakers,  I run them from a full tow in (pointed at my ears) to about a 15 degree tow from facing straight forward (slight tow).... I have found that for the most part,  I prefer to pull farther apart being careful that soundstage doesn't fold in and that I can keep fairly close to equilateral triangle. Images still project outside of speakers and I prefer the larger stage, Imaging is first rate.  I have changed Placement on them quite dramatically a few times and have used the XLO disc.  Overall,  as long as I can get my room treatments decent,  I prefer the method that I've mentioned. I hope this helps someone. Tim 

Maybe so. Maybe not. I didn’t say all speakers should be close together. What I said was one needs to start off with speakers closer together and work outwards. Otherwise, you’ll miss the sweet spot. My point was people tend to assume farther apart is better so they place them as far apart as they can in their room. Besides it all depends. You obviously can’t have 11 feet between them in a small size room. It also depends on how far from room boundaries they should be. Capish?

Let me add an addendum to my original post.

What are the disadvantages of having to little or to much space
between your speakers?

This thread is sort of funny, when absolutes regarding taste are tossed around like a salad on a sailboat (I just made that up…not bad huh?). However, this did force me to get off my butt and measure where my speakers are…5.5 feet apart (measured from tweeter horn centers on Klipsch Heresys), and around 10 feet from my ruggedly handsome face. Towed in a little (the speakers, not my face). I was closer with my previous more conventional D'Appolito array speakers, and thought (wisely or because somebody told me this was a"thing") horn loaded listening would be best served at a foot further away. 2 subs here and there. It's silly to take any opinion but your own for this, because there is NO absolute regarding what you might like relative to other people's taste…you might like a not absolutely phase correct standing wave festooned ball of cacophony in your yurt, where others might find that to be tawdry. Experiment, resist...

@onhwy61 ,

Valid question. I knew.

TekTon DIs, 8 1/2ft center to center, 3ft from front wall, 4ft from left side wall and rt speaker to open room. I sit 10ft from speakers with tweeters facing my shoulders.

Ohm Walsh 2000, 9 feet back, and about 5.5 feet apart (no choice; tight room).

measured

I guessed and today pulled out the tape measure and was totally wrong, 46 inches not 5 feet! On one hand this makes me feel better about my personal height,  on the other it seems a tad close together. However I am someone limited by an area rug in the living room. I think it sounds good but not much soundstaging as a consequence, I sit 78 inches away.

Knew.

I knew my distances. My room is less-than-ideal, so using an odd-dimensions placement is pretty critical. The acoustic centers of the speakers sit at the 1/5th and 1/7th intersections. The listening position (approximately) falls on odd-dimension line as well. I have 2” pressed fiberglass at the first reflection points, as well as behind the listening position. Toe-in points the speakers just over the shoulders. 

Just curious, did any of the above responders know their measurements or did they actually have to measure before posting?

I'm not sure if there are an infinite number of loudspeaker/listener placements, but there's surely more than one in any room that will work well.  Different positions have different sets of trade-offs which some listeners may prefer and others not.

Thiel 3.5’s
10’ center to center

ESP speakers are 7ft 4 in. apart center to center in a 14 ft wide room, toed in at 37 degrees.  The projected axis cross at 6 ft out which is about 4 ft in front of my seated position.  

There is no "hole in the middle" effect and the sound stage is wall to wall.

@geoffkait , "I would be remiss if I didn’t say that there’s an infinite number of speaker locations for a given room, so obviously the ye olde trial and error method can only get you so far. You can NEVER find the absolute best locations that way."

You make a good point for most people. Although this may sound controversial, ONE AND ONLY ONE best location to site the loudspeakers exists in a given room for a system. That doesn't mean there's only one single point in the room, as altering components changes that position.  It works exactly like focusing a lens. When you find it, the sonic level of the system jumps to a point otherwise unreachable.  Just like a lens, it's immediately, obviously, and infinitely more right than anything else.  It transcends so many of the dollars folks spend on supposedly better components. This doesn’t normally work for most people, as the complexities of life gets in the way. So unfortunately, they don’t even come close to realizing the capabilities of the system they already have

Vandersteen 2Cs, 84" C to C
+1 geoffkait...

@geoffkait 

Thank you.

@geoffkait

Can you describe (in writing here in this thread) how this track "works" in order that it is "fool-proof"?

Thanks.

>>>>>The XLO Test CD speaker location track is the OUT OF PHASE track. You have already determined that your system is in correct phase using the previous IN PHASE track. The objective of the OUT OF PHASE track is to allow incremental movement of the speakers until the sound of the voice on the track sounds like it’s coming at you from all around the room, I.e., completely diffuse. If the speakers are not (rpt not) in the absolute best locations, the voice will sound like it’s coming at you from a particular direction. The caveat here is that *completely diffuse sound* is very difficult or impossible to achieve without room treatment. Which is why I suggested a program of the XLO Test CD AND room treatment. Rome wasn’t built in a day. 😛

Thus, the reason I say this XLO Test CD method is fool-proof is because there is only ONE solution, only one set of speaker locations where you will get the sound coming at you from all around the room, instead of any particular direction, whereas the trial and error technique of moving a little, listening a little can only result in good locations but not the best locations. Without some room treatment it might be difficult or impossible to achieve this state of Nirvana. As room anomalies are discovered and addressed the sound will get better. And the sound will be perceived as more diffuse on the out of phase track.

There are details in the XLO Test CD instructions how to move each speaker incrementally according to the diffusion pattern you hear on the OUT OF PHASE TRACK.

WHEN THE SOUND IS THE MOST DIFFUSE ON THE OUT OF PHASE TRACK IT WILL BE THE MOST FOCUSED AND COHERENT WHEN PLAYING RECORDINGS THAT ARE IN THE CORRECT PHASE/POLARITY ON A SYSTEM THAT’S ALSO IN CORRECT PHASE.

The XLO Test CD Speaker Placement track is a fool-proof method for determining OPTIMUM locations for ANY room and for ANY degree of room treatment, including no room treatment, for a constant listener position.

@geoffkait 

Can you describe (in writing here in this thread) how this track "works" in order that it is "fool-proof"?

Thanks.

I would be remiss if I didn’t say that there’s an infinite number of speaker locations for a given room, so obviously the ye olde trial and error method can only get you so far. You can NEVER find the absolute best locations that way.

What is needed is a long range plan that involves both finding the optimum locations for the speakers given a constant listener location and degree of room treatment. (It is not unusual to discover the listener position is located smack dab in a standing wave.) The XLO Test CD Speaker Placement track is a fool-proof method for determining OPTIMUM locations for ANY room and for ANY degree of room treatment, including no room treatment, for a constant listener position.

But as more and better room treatments are added, the optimum speaker locations will probably change, as the radiation patterns, reflections, echo locations, etc. are modified. So as things progress, the XLO Test CD should be used in conjunction with a program of room treatment, as well as the addition of other tweaks or upgrades that affect the overall sound. Trying to listen a little, move a little can only find local maximums, not the real absolute maximum. It’s like trying to solve 3 simultaneous equations in 5 unknowns. 😬

+1 Geoff

I have ATC EL150ASL at about 7 feet apart tweeter to tweeter and I sit about 12 feet back. No toe in. I don’t like an exaggerated stereo effect and I like to keep speakers well away from side walls. There are also no walls within 6 feet of the listening position. Walls close to the listener just make the sound terrible.

Vandersteen Quatro CTs

Speaker position (acoustic centers)

• 8' 7" apart
  
• 1' 8.5" from side wall
  
• 2' 7.5" from front wall

Listening position

• 6' from side walls
  
• 1' 10" from rear wall (acoustically damped)

Ear Height

• 2' 11" from floor
  

Room Size

• 12' wide
  
• 13' deep
  
• 10' high
  

King Sound - KS17  Thirteen feet apart . These are panel speakers that do not place the soundstage outside of the speakers . Everything is in between them only . Ample room between instruments this way . Pull them closer and there is no illusion of full scale .

@geoffkait I agree. I think we tend to set our speakers so far apart as to replicate a stage experience. And yet our rooms aren't a stage. 

I recently placed my Mosaic Acoustics Illuminations back in service and they are 5 feet apart center to center.

Golden Ear Trition Reference (pair) set apart 7 feet (essentially form an equilateral triangle to the PLP).

Depending on the weather (literally) my soon to be new set up will allow the speakers to be anywhere from 6' apart (when the wall heater is not used) to 8 1/2' apart during the winter. I sit about 7'10" from the front plane of the speaker and will soon be able to increase it about 6"-8".

This is the one aspect I've always been unable to address due to room set up but with my next speaker and base, it will be much easier to move around and experiment.

All the best,
Nonoise

Dynaudio Special 25, 8 feet center to center, room is 6 meter X 10 meters and 1.5 meter from the back wall with slight toe. Speakers need to breath.

I have room treatment and have spent hours with speaker placement.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again — almost all speakers are too far apart. The speaker placement track on the XLO Test CD points out that, all things being equal, one should start out about 4 feet apart and slowly work outward. You don’t want to miss the sweet spot. 😛 Folks often instinctively think wider apart means wider soundstage but that’s an Old Wive’s Tale. 😃 Ditto toe in. It all depends, it depends a lot on room treatments, for one.

This is an interesting thread!

I have Acoustic Zen Adagios, 9'3" apart and 11' 3" from my ears. This is based on Jim Smith's ratio of the distance between speakers being .83% of the distance between your ears and the speakers.

However, I've been reading various Verity Audio manuals for their line of speakers, and they have some interesting measurements I'd like to try. For example:

If you're sitting position is within 10' of your speakers, you should have an equilateral triangle (60 degree angle between you and your two speakers).

If you're sitting more than 10' away, "the width of your room divided by 3.6 will give you the distance from the side wall to the center of the front baffle of your speakers."

and, "the distance from the rear wall to the speaker front baffle of your speaker (midrange center) should be equaled to the height of your room times 0.62."

I hven't tried these latter measurements - as they're calibrated towards Verity Audio speakers - but even an inch difference in your speaker location can significantly change the sound. 

9 feet 5 inches center to center, Thiel CS6

Golden Ear Triton Reference.  8 feet apart, center to center.

At the moment Gallo CL-3  6'6' apart, 37 " out from a VERY thick outside wall .I sit 6' away . Near in Condo .

Owned at least 50 prs of speakers in last 50 years,  only one I really miss
are  DCM Time Windows .

DCM Time Windows 6 feet apart, center to center. I sit about 6 to 8 feet back. 

Lowther Fidelio's / 7' apart (center to center)

Audio Note AN-J's 5 feet.

It would depend upon the room.
For me, it is what my living room dictates.

Silverline Audio Sonatinas mk IV's @ 64" of space between them.