we definitely would know what noise is without measuring it, otherwise what would be the point in measuring it at all if we couldn't hear it.
It is the reason we do reviews: to help you buy a system and not have to buy each one to experience/evaluate it yourself. If companies provided proper measurements and specifications, then this would not be necessary. As Dr. Toole is fond of saying, there are more specifications on the side of a car tire than there is for audio equipment!
Another reason is your application changing. You may have insensitive speakers today. Tomorrow you may have a much more sensitive speaker and hear the noise. Or get an in-ear-monitor or headphone. These two category of devices have incredible ability to dig deep due to closeness to the ear and far larger dynamic range than any speaker.
If you get a device that can be shown to have noise floor below threshold of hearing, then you are assured that it is going to be silent no matter what. Earlier I talked about the Mytek streamer. I showed in measurements how it was susceptible to noise pick up internally. See how the subjectivist reviewer at Stereophile got hit with this:
Downstairs, with my desktop system, I noticed some low-level noise and hash, the kind that can sometimes leak through a computer soundcard, and also some hum. The hash was not audible from the balanced or headphone outputs—only the unbalanced. At normal listening levels, with no music playing, the hash was audible but low in level. Further investigation, including consultations with JA1 and JCA, revealed the hash source: RFI from my Linksys Mesh Wi-Fi network leaking into the audio, likely through the BBII's Wi-Fi receiver. When I navigated through the Network menu, disconnected from my Wi-Fi network, and connected via hard-wired Ethernet, the hash disappeared. The hum remained, however
Again, this is a $5,000 "high-end" streamer we are talking about. Anyone reading my measurements would know that the potential for above noise and would get a streamer that is far quieter. You may buy the Mytek and have it be quiet, only to produce noise when the configuration changes per reviewer above.
Something is either well engineered or not. Measurements of noise is one of the top indicators of this.
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I had always thought the suspension of disbelief was what guided the audiophile.
It is, even though stereo is woefully inadequate in doing so. When I am at a piano playing, I am constantly reminded that no stereo in the world has ever captured that sound. Two speakers have zero prayer of doing so. Same as when my son plays his drums and my pant legs are literally moving due to incredible dynamics of that instrument.
Fortunately the brain is creative and forgiving. Even listening to a smart speaker in mono you detect a violin recording as violin and imagine it being there. Your brain combines the sound with a lifetime of experiences to construct something that is not real, but desired. It is this power of synthesis that I was talking about, not some illusion of reality that we sometimes get with our audio system.
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If Amir was a confident in measurements as he claims, there would be no reason to mount what the ASR faithful label as justifiable defensive responses here or in any other forum.
Huge amount of nonsense is discussed about audio here and in other forums. You don't see me jumping in those discussions. As they say, you do you.
Things change when you specifically start to discuss ASR as is the case here. Some repeat the same angry chants thinking there is no one who is going to counter them.
Forum software notifies me of topics that involve ASR. I take a look and routinely find all kinds of misstatements which can trivially be shown to be wrong. I post that with the response just being angry comments. No explanation of science. No explanation of engineering. No data. Just fantastical, self-grandiose claims of amazing listening abilities that has to be accepted, damn every bit of evidence to the contrary.
If Amir is actually confident and secure in his knowledge, his first and only response would have been an invitation to participate in ASR, requesting only respectful discussion with assurance of the same from already converted ASR faithful.
That is some strange logic. Members posting here are not going to move over to some other forums to have the discussion. They want to have it here and that is what I am doing.
Regardless, if you are easily offended, I suggest just reading ASR. Don't create an account, then jump in with both feet claim that only your ears matter and not science and engineering. You will get a few chances to prove this but if all you do is brag about your super hearing and how that rules, then folks will push back hard. They will do that to me as well by the way. We have to be able to defend what we say on ASR. No one is given a free pass day in and out to make claims like it is done elsewhere.
A few years ago a bit of good natured humor was directed at ASR. Nothing rude or nasty. The ASR faithful went ballistic in reaction and behaved as if a life and death battle had been initiated.
The only threads I have seen here have been like this one: folks fighting with every rude comment and insult they can think of. Humor is not remotely found. Folks are super angry that anyone would dare to challenge their ideas of audio with science, measurements and explanation of engineering. If this impression is wrong, I suggest you form your future posts to be different than what you have post already.
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Amir says “That's right. All those cells have an amazing ability to invent things that don't exist. Listen to a violin and your brain imagines the thing being in your room. But there is nothing in your room. It is just imagination. ”
- if there was any doubt in any one’s mind whether amir actually listens to music or only looks at his measurements for anything entering his ear, this about puts everything to rest. I’ve never heard anything more sad about music appreciation than this 😔 - I had always thought the suspension of disbelief was what guided the audiophile.
In friendship - kevin
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Well my guess is that some love music and others love devices.
Subjectivists are worst at it, worrying about every bit of their system affecting the sound from screws to cables. One wonders if they are ever able to sit back and enjoy the sound of their system without constant worrying that "everything matters" and what else they could upgrade.
Objectivists do proper research of what they are buying and do so with confidence. That frees them to site back and enjoy music. I know I am.
Not JA s biggest fan, but he certainly doesnt take an overly extreme position.
He can't. There is a business to be run. His measurements don't lie though. So be sure to learn how to read them and not just go by his words. He often shows an audio product with really bad performance but finishes with "there is good engineering there." I am not so tied up so my conclusions match the data in the review.
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I just watched the BBC clip. So I guess we will need to close our eyes when listening sessions are supplemented with live performers. Absolute drivel.
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Well my guess is that some love music and others love devices. JA was quoted earlier. Not JA s biggest fan, but he certainly doesnt take an overly extreme position. I believe he majored in music and played in a band or two back in the U.K. A musician with a proclivity towards measurement.
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Good synopsis of what has transpired here. They keep attacking and then criticize the dude for defending himself. And they see his responses as evidence that he's a nasty, arrogant condescending piece of work while ignoring that it's their posts that fit that description. Funniest is when they say the ASR posters attack opposing opinions while doing that here for hundreds of posts.
@dwcda You need to have been paying attention to ASR a lot longer than just this thread. It is a known fact that Amir started the WhatsBest with a partner. Amir left/kicked out depending on who is telling the story. Amir then starts ASR. He is the ASR head honcho. Amir can do what he wants and make the rules for ASR. It is his to manage. All are free to participate - or not.
Long before this thread started, ASR members routinely insulted, launched rude personal attacks, or approached slander territory when measurements were questioned or not accepted as an absolute predictor of audible quality, Not being a measurement disciple routinely attracts snark, name calling, or suggestions of not knowing enough to even participate in ASR. Amir manages to remain aloof from the frequent obnoxious ASR member behavior. Conveniently allowing ASR members to do the heavy lifting, or dirty work, as it were. Instead, Amir constructs some of the best word salad prevarication know to Corporately trained management. Measurements are valuable and have their role. That is not the issue at the root of most criticisms of Amir and ASR expressed here.
If Amir was a confident in measurements as he claims, there would be no reason to mount what the ASR faithful label as justifiable defensive responses here or in any other forum. If Amir is actually confident and secure in his knowledge, his first and only response would have been an invitation to participate in ASR, requesting only respectful discussion with assurance of the same from already converted ASR faithful. Amir is the ASR CEO with the power to demand and ensure respect of all viewpoints expressed on ASR.
A few years ago a bit of good natured humor was directed at ASR. Nothing rude or nasty. The ASR faithful went ballistic in reaction and behaved as if a life and death battle had been initiated. If Amir and the ASR faithful were truly confident and secure in their embrace of measurements, that attempted humor would have been ignored. Add the ad nauseum self promotion cut and paste activity by Amir and you will understand the less than warm welcome here
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We are Beautiful.....celebrate! We are an infinite Miracle......70 trillion cells in our bodies.....WOW times infinity.....can you dig it? Or would you rather be right?
That's right. All those cells have an amazing ability to invent things that don't exist. Listen to a violin and your brain imagines the thing being in your room. But there is nothing in your room. It is just imagination. You dream at nights. Nothing about that is real. Your brain has infinite ability to imagine things.
We have to have protocols to keep the brain from imagining things and only reflect what you are hearing. Don't confuse what you perceive vs what goes into your ear. They can be the same or completely different.
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@amir_asr we definitely would know what noise is without measuring it, otherwise what would be the point in measuring it at all if we couldn't hear it.
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Whatever you put your mind on........you become. Amir is a measurement man, he puts his mind on a measurement mache.....therefore.....he has become a machine......he he.
Not at all. I hugely value proper listening test results. Your listening tests are faulty and you refuse to understand why. Do the listening tests properly and we can then have a discussion.
When I am challenged on my hearing ability, I provide full double blind listening tests such as this public test a few years back:
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foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/08/02 13:52:46
File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Archimago\24-bit Audio Test (Hi-Res 24-96, FLAC, 2014)\01 - Sample A - Bozza - La Voie Triomphale.flac
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Archimago\24-bit Audio Test (Hi-Res 24-96, FLAC, 2014)\02 - Sample B - Bozza - La Voie Triomphale.flac
13:52:46 : Test started.
13:54:02 : 01/01 50.0%
13:54:11 : 01/02 75.0%
13:54:57 : 02/03 50.0%
13:55:08 : 03/04 31.3%
13:55:15 : 04/05 18.8%
13:55:24 : 05/06 10.9%
13:55:32 : 06/07 6.3%
13:55:38 : 07/08 3.5%
13:55:48 : 08/09 2.0%
13:56:02 : 09/10 1.1%
13:56:08 : 10/11 0.6%
13:56:28 : 11/12 0.3%
13:56:37 : 12/13 0.2%
13:56:49 : 13/14 0.1%
13:56:58 : 14/15 0.0%
13:57:05 : Test finished.
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Total: 14/15 (0.0%)
As you see, 14 out of 15 right which is almost perfect.
And Mark's test tracks he produced for a test on AVS:
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/10 18:50:44
File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\On_The_Street_Where_You_Live_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\On_The_Street_Where_You_Live_B2.wav
18:50:44 : Test started.
18:51:25 : 00/01 100.0%
18:51:38 : 01/02 75.0%
18:51:47 : 02/03 50.0%
18:51:55 : 03/04 31.3%
18:52:05 : 04/05 18.8%
18:52:21 : 05/06 10.9%
18:52:32 : 06/07 6.3%
18:52:43 : 07/08 3.5%
18:52:59 : 08/09 2.0%
18:53:10 : 09/10 1.1%
18:53:19 : 10/11 0.6%
18:53:23 : Test finished.
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Total: 10/11 (0.6%)
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All you have is claims of hearing this and that. Come back following protocols that limit your experience to only sound and then you have something. No measurements needed.
As I have said, nearly half of my reviews include listening tests. That amounts to hundreds of reviews this way. So don't keep saying I only go by measurements. I go by what science requires which is either objective tests or controlled experiments. What you do is neither.
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The transparency we perceive when we remove noise with tweaks can be heard.....plain and simple. It CANNOT be measured.
Only when you use your eyes as well. Audio equipment naturally measures sound, not what your eyes also picked up. Or knowledge of what you are listening to and bias therein.
Do the test again without looking or prior knowledge, and then your claim can be taken seriously. Until then, there is no such thing as unmeasurable noise. We wouldn't know what noise is if we could not measure it!
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Amir will continure to post things like the above to "prove" something. It does not prove anything. It just shows that certain cables could pick up more noise if you stick a transformer near it. Let’s see.....where are my transformers to try this? And why would I care? The transparency we perceive when we remove noise with tweaks can be heard.....plain and simple. It CANNOT be measured. Again, you have to listen to know anything. Amir does not listen....therefore he does not know anything.
Amir cannot help anyone get better sound than his baseline measuring components......because he does not listen. You are stuck at a good level of sound with a Topping stack.....but you will never get to great, superb or incredible. You are stuck.....because Amir is stuck in his ego defense of something he cannot defend. As I said before, Amir cannot show us any listening tests to prove a component is "transparent" if it meets a certain SINAD measurement. He simply made up his belief and is standing by his "non listening" false statements.
His ego is entrenched in this belief......so nothing I or anyone can do here will make him start listening. This thread is just a repeat......over and over and over again. If we want it to end.....then we must do the correct thing.....stop coming here and stop posting. This nonsense could go on forever if we let it. I am stopping.....I will not post here again. There is nothing inherently wrong with Amir. He is not a bad person. He is just caught in an ego mind cycle. Some day.....some lifetime....he will stop defending positions that are not real......this goes for everyone....including me. The soul needs no defense. The truth in audio needs no defense......we all know that what we hear is REAL......Measurements are not music.
Whatever you put your mind on........you become. Amir is a measurement man, he puts his mind on a measurement mache.....therefore.....he has become a machine......he he.
If we give him attention.....even as resisting him.....then we create his ego even greater.....FOR WHATEVER YOU RESIST......PERSISTS. Let him go and he no longer exists......at least his ego mind will not exist here....for he will have no audience. And you will be at peace and be happier. Let it be so. Let us give audience to the truth of our soul......ie...how great Amir and everyone on the planet is......we are the light of love.....we are the love of light.......put you mind on that and become it.....way more fun than this thread.....WAY MORE.
We are Beautiful.....celebrate! We are an infinite Miracle......70 trillion cells in our bodies.....WOW times infinity.....can you dig it? Or would you rather be right?
Blessings.
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@8th-note +100 Good synopsis of what has transpired here. They keep attacking and then criticize the dude for defending himself. And they see his responses as evidence that he's a nasty, arrogant condescending piece of work while ignoring that it's their posts that fit that description. Funniest is when they say the ASR posters attack opposing opinions while doing that here for hundreds of posts.
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Nowhere has anyone said that measurements have no place in the design and evaluation of equipment.
Then there is nothing extreme about what I am doing to review audio products. But then we read stuff like this from a few pages back:
What is so cool is when you reduce the noise (audible not measured) then you not only can hear that there are 5 back up singers instead of 4....
Noise that is not measurable? that's extreme, no?
Noise is the simplest thing to measure. Don't feed the device a signal and measure the voltage. Done! But somehow audio doesn't abide by laws of physics. It can have noise that is unmeasurable.
Wonder why it is so common to find these unmeasurable designs in audio from cables to footers and fuses. Just about every review of such unmeasurable effects about blacker backgrounds. Yet, none of these technologies are used where noise is a huge problem such as radio telescopes.
What is fascinating is that often when I measure the noise characteristics of these tweaks, they are actually worse than cheap generic stuff! Take this Nordost SuperFlatline speaker cable:
I put a transformer next to it and inject some noise into it and we get this:
Now let's do that to our generic speaker cable:
Look at how much less it is influenced by the noise! Physics predicts that from the configuration of Norodost cable but folks just want to believe marketing material and results of faulty listening tests.
So no, some folks don't want to see a role for measurements. It destroys the illusion they are living in.
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Yeah the medical/audio analogy was beyond ridiculous. But hey if you look at the rest of his post he kind of misses the fact that the most extreme views are held by Amir and ASR. Nowhere has anyone said that measurements have no place in the design and evaluation of equipment.
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The most vociferous posters act like their religious beliefs are being questioned.
That summarizes it pretty well. Seems like a very small handful here feel threatened enough to fight for whatever reason.
Maybe ASR dissed something they either sell or own in a review?
Or maybe something more affordable that competes with something they sell got a good review?
Or maybe it’s merely their beliefs being challenged?
Who knows. But it always helps to follow the money when money is involved.
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And yes, he wants a video (as if i owe him something)...
You don't owe me anything. That request was meant to help you prove your case. Otherwise, we can dismiss it as another grandiose claim to hear someone flushing their toilet in the next country. And claim so while violating basics of how to do a controlled test.
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Meanwhile, back at ASR.....
All the best,
Nonoise
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knock1
I am pretty sure nobody in this thread "disregard any scientific approach to audio" and all agree that measurements are only a part of evaluation of audio equipment. It is being pointed out that science falls short in full explanation of human perception of sound. You must have missed it.
That is typical of ASR strawman ill logic, and often presented with a self-righteous passive-agressive sneer. In this instance:
8th-note
Fortunately our audio hobby is not life or death but I hope that the anti-science folks don’t carry that bias into more important parts of their lives.
He is so-oooo concerned for our health and well-being! Isn’t that lovely? It’s a whole new level of virtue signalling.
ASR itself is toxic and it attracts toxicity. I ignore ’em.
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jasonbourne71, an ASR minion, chimes in with typical ASR minion snark.
deep_333 stated changes were/were not made that he could not see. Being able to see the TAD speakers is irrelevant to evaluating whether changes behind the curtain not visible made any audible difference. The ASR minions always find fault with any test, knowledge, experience, or enjoyment of audio that does not fit the ASR mold.
Anybody involved in the audio hobby in recent years very likely is well aware of ASR. Measurements have their place. However, there is no reason for the Audiogon Forum to provide free advertising space so Amir can cut and paste his charts, graphs and promotion of said material ad nauseum. Providing links is more than sufficient for ANY person leaving a post.
And it that quick moment of ASR advertising, captain feral copied and pasted a measurement on some TAD floorstander, it appears... Funny thing is...i was sitting in a building that belonged to a rival of pioneer/tad ( Pioneer, Yamaha, Technics, Den/Marantz..etc they are all considered to be fierce rivals over there). The monitors just happened to an older tad pro kit that this guy may have never heard of....
It was interesting...their "sound master" (poor translation indeed) picked 2 tracks of the 7 or 8 recorded tracks i had. He wouldn’t tell me why he picked those specific tracks (guy played all kinds of instruments). They were gracious enough though to let me use my own tracks that i’d recorded on my own instrument. They looped it and i just took notes with time stamps for a couple of hours. The guys had a whole work bench behind a curtain with all kinds of circuits (legacy, new sht whatever). Later on, they were explaining to me what correlated to changes made on their end (with their timestamps) against the notes i took down at different timestamps (with no visual)...plenty enough repeats in there..
Technics, Yamaha, etc would keep guys on their top end payroll (high job security n all) for decades if it was all baloney according to the clown and his minions with a AP kit....right? mmhmm...yep.
And yes, he wants a video (as if i owe him something)...i would want his hiney planted in my house...so i can telecast this clown to the world, show the difference in "listening skills"/ ability to pass blind tests (whoop di doo), etc between 1 hobbyist musician, 2 other pro musicians and 1 guy with genetically challenged ears who took a listening test on harman’s website for an hour (a self proclaimed sound master). He can hear an instrument in his 1 hour of harman website training better than 3 guys who may have collectively spent more than a 100 years in effort on their respective instruments apparently! We’ll find out.
It will be a few hours of 3 of guys laughing away passing blind tests as the minion leader sinks into an abyss. That would be time well spent, but, guess what? If you post such a video on ASR showcasing what a fool he is, he’ll take it down quickly and ban the guy who posted it.
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I am pretty sure nobody in this thread "disregard any scientific approach to audio" and all agree that measurements are only a part of evaluation of audio equipment. It is being pointed out that science falls short in full explanation of human perception of sound. You must have missed it.
Pancreas cancer is "curable disease", just like common cold right? Really?
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I have decided to ignore Amir and ASR entirely. It is hard to ignore toxic people sometimes, but I have need to at least try lest I become toxic myself. I really think the more he posts on this forum the more damage is done to his brand, however, textbychoice may have a point.
I have followed this thread with much interest. For the record I have come to exactly the opposite conclusion as @audition__audio . Amir has conducted himself with honesty, clarity, and class in the face of repeated ad hominem attacks.
This thread captures the essence of the Objective vs. Subjective audio debate better than anything I've seen. Only in a forum such as this, where most of the participants are anonymous, can you really get to the core of the debate. The most vociferous posters act like their religious beliefs are being questioned. When they can't argue the facts they resort to insults and name calling. Everything I have seen from ASR has consistently shown that Amir is offering information that he can back up with data, facts, and measurements. To quote one of my favorite actors, "You can't handle the truth!"
I'm curious to know if people who have contempt for Amir's scientific approach to audio disregard the science and trust their own personal judgement on how to treat an illness or disease they may have. Do they think that double blind drug testing is a farce? Do they take "natural" remedies that they feel good about and forsake the pharmaceutical industry? Do they think all science is bogus or do their beliefs just apply to the audio industry?
Lastly, it's interesting that several posters refer to themselves as engineers but disregard any scientific approach to audio. I have met several engineers over the years who held contempt for scientific empriical evidence even though their own training was based on that discipline. The most famous example of this is Steve Jobs. He died of a curable disease because he thought that he knew more than the medical science establishment. Fortunately our audio hobby is not life or death but I hope that the anti-science folks don't carry that bias into more important parts of their lives.
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I have decided to ignore Amir and ASR entirely. It is hard to ignore toxic people sometimes, but I have need to at least try lest I become toxic myself. I really think the more he posts on this forum the more damage is done to his brand, however, textbychoice may have a point.
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jasonbourne71, an ASR minion, chimes in with typical ASR minion snark.
deep_333 stated changes were/were not made that he could not see. Being able to see the TAD speakers is irrelevant to evaluating whether changes behind the curtain not visible made any audible difference. The ASR minions always find fault with any test, knowledge, experience, or enjoyment of audio that does not fit the ASR mold.
Anybody involved in the audio hobby in recent years very likely is well aware of ASR. Measurements have their place. However, there is no reason for the Audiogon Forum to provide free advertising space so Amir can cut and paste his charts, graphs and promotion of said material ad nauseum. Providing links is more than sufficient for ANY person leaving a post.
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@amir_asr +1 For your 6-12-24 11:45 PM post. Audiophiles tend to have an aversion to blind tests - "why should I do that? I listen with my ears, not my eyes".
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I would not offer you a paper cup for testing.
"Any donations are much appreciated." Not begging for donations here?
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Absolutely not....I sat in front of a couple of TAD monitors while a couple of snickering Japanese guys tweaked away behind me...
Ah, an attempt at blind testing that was left out of your original story. Sad that you didn't know that the test needs to be repeated.
TAD by the way has sent me equipment for review, courtesy of their CEO contacting me. Here is my review of their TAD Evolution 2 Speaker:
It did "OK."
Conclusions
I guess I can state the obvious that given TAD's stellar reputation in speaker designs, I walked in expecting perfection. We did not get that. I let you all vote with what you think of the measured performance. I am delighted about the quality of the speaker though.
I should also mention the incredible support and generosity of the company to work with me and send me these samples for testing. No other company has offered such expensive speakers for testing.
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Evelyn Glennie is completely deaf and is a masterful percussionist. She plays barefoot to feel the music. I have seen her perform live.
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Ken Ishiwata is rolling over in his grave.
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So your eyes were involved in that experience. It makes sense, right? That the longer distance would make things worse.
Absolutely not....I sat in front of a couple of TAD monitors while a couple of snickering Japanese guys tweaked away behind me...All i did was time stamp what changed at what time....must be rough...being you hanging on to a sinad chart for dear life as your ship sinks.
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I have address this before.
The next time a clinically DEAF guy plays a musical instrument, i want you to smack yourself on that low IQ CNS with that Audio Precision kit chassis repeatedly and try to add a few more IQ points to it.
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@deep_333
Love that anecdote of the Japanese engineer : )
Everyone has differently developed listening ability. Some just hear more critically than others : )
In friendship - kevin
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I sat at one of their facilities once and listened to a few iterations of some circuits. Guy varies the signal path distance... and the sound changes.
So your eyes were involved in that experience. It makes sense, right? That the longer distance would make things worse.
A component he deems more thermally resilient vs non-resilient (external solution)...the sound changes
You don't know that the sound changed and neither does he or he would show it to you on an audio analyzer or scope.
He had no engg explanation as to WHY himself? (Why Flippin why?)....
Why indeed. Both of you perceived a change. No question there. The question is whether the output of that device changed or not. This is what we are interested in. After all, we don't listen to music through you two's brains.
The explanation is that our hearing is dynamic and bi-directional. Your brain decides from moment to moment how much it cares about detail in the music. Most of the time, it has to throw away 99.999% of what it is hearing as recording everything would take infinite storage. But ask your brain to analyze things and it will then go into a different mode and listen much more carefully. When it does, you all of a sudden hear more air. More detail. The soundstage opens up. All of these things happen. But they happen with nothing changes in your system! You changed.
Once you hear that change, now bias sets in. You listen to the "before" system and the magic is gone. You listen to "after" system, it comes back.
What is incredible is that even full knowledge of this effect won't make you immune to it. It is so part of being human that it is just going to happen.
This is why we test blind. That way, you don't know if a change has occurred or not due to randomness of selection.
When I first started to test Marantz AV products, performance was worse than Denon. I asked the company why that is. They said they have a guy just like what you are describing making changes and a Golden ear guy makes decisions on what sounds best. I told them that process only works if the testing is done blind and repeated. Fast forward two years and Marantz products now have excellent performance with none of that degradation through the methods you describe.
We (science) are not stupid. Doing blind tests is hard. But we have to do it to eliminate not only bias, but above elasticity of human perception.
A great example of this: one of the ex-stereophile editors (now part of Absolute Sound) lives near us and he was kind enough to invite our local audiophile group to go to his house and listen to his system. While there, he had a new amplifier for review. Room was too small so we split up into two groups. First group went it and heard comparisons of his everyday amp against the amplifier under review. They come back and without saying anything, our group goes in. We are presented with different music samples played by both amps. At the end, he asked which amplifier sounded better. Majority (not including me), voted that one was.
We come back as a group to meet up with the first group. As soon as we got there they asked us which amp our group said was better. Guess what? We had selected the exact opposite of what they had! Jaws fell on the floor in both groups. Both were so convinced they were right.
The reviewer then said he knew why that happened. He said that he played the amps in opposite order for each group! In other words, merely changing which amp went first vs second, determined the outcome. Not the fidelity difference!
He was partially right. As I mentioned above, it is often that the second sample sounds better due to us paying closer attention although this doesn't have to be this way.
I didn't vote as I mentioned above because there was no way to make a proper comparison. And at any rate, both sounded similar anyway.
While what you experienced makes lay sense, and you were impressed by an authority that you thought knew more than you, what I am explaining likely does not. But it is a proven fact not only in audio but in many other fields where blind testing is performed.
So I am asking a lot. I am asking you to put aside your intuition and limited experience and trust the science. You do that to believe earth is round even though every bone in your body says otherwise. No way do you want to believe that time changes with speed yet we have GPS satellites that are calibrated for this based on Einstein's theory of special relativity. You have to trust the science in audio much like you do in other areas. Otherwise you live in a sea of confusing opinions about audio.
These are things I have explained in my video tutorials:
Let us look at a less extreme case. I have been tied to a violin for 40+ years. I own a few different violins. I could record a progression on 2 different violins I own. You play it back and I will pick out which violin is which without blinking.
I have address this before. Those two recordings could be shown trivially to measure differently. Here, you all are claiming differences that you say are not measurable so best not to mix examples. Even here, we would need evidence of y you doing this reliably. I show how I can tell extremely small impairments in the second video above. This is done through record of double blind test. Countless audiophiles failed that test.
Bottom line is this: there is not a single professional society that would accept the results of any non-blind/uncontrolled testing as you say you have done. You claim superiority to the science but lack any evidence to prove it. Only self-appraisals under an alias in a forum. That, doesn't amount to anything.
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if you study it, you will find that discovery begins with empiricism, our experiences of
As I mentioned earlier, I am a core engineer who got schooled by a few Japanese audio overlords. I sat at one of their facilities once and listened to a few iterations of some circuits. Guy varies the signal path distance... and the sound changes. A component he deems more thermally resilient vs non-resilient (external solution)...the sound changes . He had no engg explanation as to WHY himself. (Why Flippin why?).... But, he just knows...if I do this, it sounds like this or that, etc....years and years of accumulated empirical information by listening (in-house secrets, bizarre stuff) with no engg explanation. My closed mind opened a bit at that point.
Couple that with the fact that the human is a very malleable/adaptive creature...
There are DEAF musicians...clinically deaf (can’t hear nada) that play instruments. Can Majidimehr measure diddly on such a malleable creature? NO
Let us look at a less extreme case. I have been tied to a violin for 40+ years. I own a few different violins. I could record a progression on 2 different violins I own. You play it back and I will pick out which violin is which without blinking. Would Majidimehr be able to do so? No, he won’t, they will sound the same to him.
Deep went through a certain kind of adaptation with the sound of that instrument while Majid got stuck in a hole. They would all sound the same to him. His foolish self would want a blind test because he became the expert of my instrument after 1 hour of listening training he went through online on Harman’s website apparently.
He became the expert of me in 1 hour that took me 40 freaking years. Freaking amazing, ain’t it?
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I am with nonoise on this. For once I wasnt the first person to say something.
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@nonoise Wow, you put a lot of effort into that!
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@kevn It's always a journey to savor learning new information. I really haven't a clue why you or the crew here are mildly to see me as ragingly hostile unpleasant. As I have mentioned previously, I have no investment in these topics. They are interesting, is all, and I have the luxury to treat troll them as such with no commercial, ego, or other interests. I hold them up like a jar of fireflies and they are tulips of fire against the background nothingness. (gag)
I am, however, developing a series of micro-theses on how online communities shift over time, stirring animosity with Agon members, like to whet my talents to in enlarging the Overton window, and how certain media theorists apply framing theory or pumps/valve metaphors to the dynamics that shift and change online sensibilities. Again, it aids in deluding others and it's helpful to see it up close and rough-and-tumble rather than just in theory.
(takes an additional note)
Best, as always, and in your friendship.
Did I mention that this was getting boring?
All the best,
Nonoise
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@kevn Sure! That's cool... I will contemplate!
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@markwd ”That's the gist: we don't know what is true until we discover it.”
- if you study it, you will find that discovery begins with empiricism, our experiences of life that begin with a hunch, not measurements, since one hasn’t a clue what to measure before it’s discovered. ; )
In friendship - kevin
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@kevn I see no such word games at all. I have been completely honest and my distilling down the discussion to the syllogism-like structure was an attempt to put you at ease since you like to write exceedingly long about issues like your distinction amongst fidelities and seemed ego-driven to dominate an animated and uncertain topic. You were also misunderstanding my points and I'm guessing I was some of yours.
My points were from the beginning exactly what ended up in the clarifying syllogism, though they may not have been sufficiently refined at that early stage. They were exceedingly relevant it turns out: there was no clear way to engineer a product to take advantage of the hypothesized phenomena; there was no established evidence that listening can exceed measurements for engineered audio products; there might be some additional insights in certain bodies of scientific literature but remains an undiscovered country; etc.
That's the gist: we don't know what is true until we discover it. We apply epistemic humility (sorry, I'm a champion of that phrase in this charged world). We sort through possibilities. I pretty much always operate in good faith and don't express certitude when it isn't warranted (attach your mildly uncomplimentary adjectives as you want...in good faith, I suspect you think! 🤣). I still say (a) might be untrue...the future is unknown.
In the end, though, here's what we have: Amir's measurements are currently effective for determining the relative quality of sound reproduction across a range of audio devices. The mysterious "deepenings" that were ginned up out of a few preliminary scientific findings didn't dethrone the value of ASR reviews. Those reviews continue to be high quality and valuable to me and to a large population of online readers.
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What a nasty, arrogant condescending piece of work you are.
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@fleschler
trust me fleschler, you know more about these matters than I do - everything sounding profound I posted earlier came from my reading of the article mahgister linked, with what I know of uncertainty principles, and my curiosity over why I often hear things with small changes in my system that cannot be measured. Confirmation bias is just a lazy inconclusive answer, and appears the only aspect of empiricism that pure rationalists acknowledge.
I still stand by where high fidelity began and what it means. So your post makes all the sense in the world.
When put into context, we are not hearing the single piece of equipment measured. We only hear it in the context of the entire signal chain - what comes out of the speaker and into your ears is the only true gauge of how well that bit of equipment performs….in context. By all means, measure that amp for linear distortion. But don’t pretend to measure it for the non linearities human ears might be hearing, where all the nuance music actually happens. It’s about system context, not about the amp or the this or that that are isolated things within an entire system. There is no easy way to get a full understanding of what something does in a system, until we hear it from the speakers with our non-linear ears.
In friendship - kevin
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Dude (facepalm), the fact that you sat around with headphones comparing that Schiit with something else....no, you have a lot to learn.
The owner's experience was with Stax headphone and that is what I replicated.
For starters, I could show you a comparison on a couple of dacs, a good one and a crappy one i have in storage with one of my rigs (NOT HEADPHONES) and it is flipping night and day obvious how one one of them produces a flatass soundfield and the other one doesn’t.
Then go ahead and do that. Be sure to match levels, perform the test blind, and repeat at least 10 times and see if you get at least 9 right. With that kind of differentiation, it should be a walk in the park for you.
I’ll pass a blind comparison 25/25 times or 50/50 times or how many ever flipping times (done it before) in my room (not in your garage) on the test tracks I recorded/will provide.
Do you also know how to shoot a video of the event? Because that is what we need.
I conclude that you have no field experience and it is a waste of time to try and say anything to you Carry on, try and dazzle the Agon senior citizens some more with a few more of your simpleton charts.
Let's see you dazzle us with some facts rather than claims. When can we expect the above comparison video?
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@markwd
It’s not the differences in viewpoint at stake here, but the way the argument is engaged - I see all these words games with amir, and you in fact, when faced with quite honest communication. I will not debate what your intentions are, but the comment on the study was the first relevant post you made the entire time, and I suspect you know that. You are clearly not thick, so it appears trollish to keep inserting obtuse points in your every reply just to confound and confuse the discussion.
Let’s see where this takes us. In the meantime, do look up the definitions of high fidelity so that it’s not confused with signal fidelity.
In friendship - kevin
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Kevin and Markwd I know I don't have your knowledge of electronics. I do know how to record something as simple as a piano quartet and make it sound at least as good (usually better) than issued recordings (I've been doing this for over 40 years). I start with a great recording venue, then a simple two mike digital recorder located within 15 feet from the performers, recorded even as low as 16/44 resolution, adding no reverb only music tracks and voila, a mastertape quality recording (it certainly helps when one has all professional touring performers).
Most listeners of acoustic music do not get to experience live performances in great venues. It helps train one's ear. I've heard over 400 opera performances and either performed or heard 1000s of choral and orchestral performances. When I evaluate audio equipment, I require multiple types and recordings. There are an infinite number of variables beginning at the recording chain and then the final mastered product. Just using my simple recordings give me a reference for comparison. @deep_333 is incorrect in his analysis of the Topping D70s concerning an inability to reproduce dense, complex music which means either his (assumption of gender) recording(s) or his ancillary equipment are at fault (or he has a defective Topping unit). VERY IMPORTANT-apparently about 1/3 of these units come with inverted polarity. There is a built-in correction on the main menu. Huge difference. It may only effect XLR output though. I didn't test single ended output.
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@kevn It's always a journey to savor learning new information. I really haven't a clue why you or the crew here are mildly to ragingly hostile. As I have mentioned previously, I have no investment in these topics. They are interesting, is all, and I have the luxury to treat them as such with no commercial, ego, or other interests. I hold them up like a jar of fireflies and they are tulips of fire against the background nothingness.
I am, however, developing a series of micro-theses on how online communities shift over time, like enlarging the Overton window, and how certain media theorists apply framing theory or pumps/valve metaphors to the dynamics that shift and change online sensibilities. It's helpful to see it up close and rough-and-tumble rather than just in theory.
(takes an additional note)
Best, as always, and in your friendship.
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@markwd ”Since I dove in, I have to deep dive! Not definitive, but an interesting data point:”
- well done, markwd: after all the prevarication and paltering, you finally found something that allows you to question the 2013 article. I cannot say I fully understand the full substance of it, but I agree it appears to have basis for disagreement the study, and measurement has bought itself some breathing room.
- in any case, have you tried diving deep enough on the other debate of what high fidelity actually means? We shouldn’t be selective over diving now…you know, once we have realised we did actually have a dog in the fight, no? : )
In friendship - kevin
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I tested two Schiit Yggdrasils, finding design errors in them. Company disputed that so a third person volunteered his unit. In doing so, he told me he had bought a Topping and it did not sound as good. He gave me the model number and precise tracks he had used for that testing, and the fact that he had used Stax headphones. I own Stax headphones, and said Topping DAC and same music in high-res (what he had used).
First thing I had to do was match levels as out of box levels were not the same, invalidating any such listening test. After I did that, the two DACs sounded identical in AB tests. The Topping cost 10% of the Yggdrasils.
I was also told that the Yggdrasils needs to warm up. So I left it on for days, measuring it along the way. Its performance never changed.
Again, I duplicated his listening tests to the letter, except that I was careful to match levels when he had not done.
If you all just learned how to properly test equipment so that only the fidelity is being evaluated, then these arguments would all go away. Instead, you keep doing faulty testing, with all manner of mistakes and biases and arrive at conclusions that are not supported by any science or engineering.
Dude (facepalm), the fact that you sat around with headphones comparing that Schiit with something else....no, you have a lot to learn. For starters, I could show you a comparison on a couple of dacs, a good one and a crappy one i have in storage with one of my rigs (NOT HEADPHONES) and it is flipping night and day obvious how one one of them produces a flatass soundfield and the other one doesn’t. You are too stuck in your hole with your headphones and sinad for anything to...., no, I am not going to waste effort bothering to explain anything. I’ll pass a blind comparison 25/25 times or 50/50 times or how many ever flipping times (done it before) in my room (not in your garage) on the test tracks I recorded/will provide. While you chase the dumb didi sinad, I’ll chase the software and dsp instead that’s more meaningful to me.
On the same note, I certainly didn’t join this forum to try and flex intellectually all day against senior citizens from other lines of work....like you’ve doing for pages. But, since that is all you seem to wanna do, I’ve hinted here before that I am a business owner. I own a engineering firm (fab/test floors whatever dude), I’m in the business of producing precision electronics and electromechanical components for some entities. We use million dollars of test equipment, ndt, whatever, the likes of which you will never see or hear about in life. There is nothing you could possibly say that doesn’t sound like simpleton sht to me. I am sure you know about certain types of engg disciplines where you would get embarassed/get schooled very quickly. If I start talking to you about high F high V thermal runaway whatever crap black art circuit to you, nobody on this thread including you will have a clue. So, just simmer down with the flex. Do it on your forum instead.
Y’know, there are guys on my payroll too (i know your kind) who are these younger engg grunts that would talk just like you, possibly. "How could two Fing circuits measure the same, sound different?! Wait, wait, circuits have a sound?!?!" while some of the phds may at least think amd try to keep their mouths shut. Once upon a time, I used to think that way a bit perhaps...But, i got schooled by some audio overlords and it opened my mind. NO, you will never see anything like that in your EE electives or your goofy lil text book.
An older guy like yourself...you should have had opportunities in life to wisen up over time, gather the humility to admit that there is sht that’s hard to explain, I’d think.... but, you certainly havn’t or it is this fake facade you’ve been putting up all day. Either way, I’ll see right through it...I conclude that you have no field experience and it is a waste of time to try and say anything to you Carry on, try and dazzle the Agon senior citizens some more with a few more of your simpleton charts.
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