Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

@audition__audio @mahgister  I agree. I’m shocked! Amir can’t keep off of forums where ASR is taken to task for not being fair to gear he doesn’t endorse or sell (sarcastically).. This clown reviewer who has made some correct observations has caused more problems for audiophiles and music lovers than he has helped. He just can’t keep his mits off of Audiogon forums while booting guys like us off his ASR if we don’t comply with his (not all ASR posters, some who I admire), but many minions who degrade anything LP, fuse, cable, high priced, etc. gear that they say is inferior, or even measures inferior to ASR standards and reviews. The OP hit the nail on the head, different types of speakers require different measurement protocols and may still not reveal in room behavior.

@mapman  That's not quite how the audio equipment industry works (not at all).  Capitalization and marketing are essential to sustainability and growth.  Some companies remain small and that's okay.  It has no reflection on the quality of their goods.  Some fail or fail to achieve growth due to poor financial management (boy do I know that after learning about current high end/high quality endeavors by those with 4 and 5 decades in audio equipment distribution). 

Then again, companies with goods that are seen as inferior and/or overpriced commonly fail (especially if they lack continuing capitalization/adequate cash flow).  The market doesn't always drop bad or inferior products (quality of sound and/or reliability.  I don't want to mention names of manufacturers or products.   

@kevn Thank you so much for your analysis, putting into stark relief what I attempted to state in more basic language.  Also thank you @markwd for your cogent comments.  I've been stating the same thing in two Audiogon forums with 2000 posts (and Amir condescending arguments which are invalid for the most part).  

I have only one complaint in that the vinyl LP and crude stylii were the initial semblance of high fidelity sound. It was the magnetic tape that predated that attainment of sound quality. Today, it is still true that the mastered analog tape is closer to the recorded sound than the disc, unless the disc was recorded as direct to disc. I only have about 200 R2R tapes from the 50’s and 60’s and most are quite good (7.5 ips and 1/4 track). Better tapes are now available but relatively expensive. With 31,100 LPs, I often desire to obtain higher fidelity than encoded on my records. I keep most of them for the performances (live and studio) that are unobtainable from alternate media. I also really appreciate CDs as a convenient and often superior format but I admit I have superior playback equipment. Until recently, I preferred analog playback, now it is dependent on the mastering more than on the format.

Thanks again Kevn!

I did look at ASR as several friends touted the Topping DAC, specifically, D70s as the finest in their lineup, a balance of resolution and liquidity/musicality. Well, they are relatively inexpensive and now three of us own one. Coupled with fine quality transports (mine is a Jay’s Audio CDt3 Mk3), it extracts CD quality sound rivalling analog LPs. I have replaced it with a Lampizator Poseidon at 50X (!) the cost (not getting 50X the improvement though, more incremental). ASR touted the Topping unit as the best at the time (2021?) but soon thereafter replaced it with an even lower noise version the D90. Unfortunately, new versions don’t translate into better sond, just better measurements in this instance. My prior experience with older Topping DACs was negative, just too raw sounding, an unsettling listening experience, typical in my pre-2005 feelings toward CD playback. Even my transport costs 10X the Topping. It is a truly great unit. I read last week of a high end recommendation for a $100 DAC, possibly an SMU unit that is also a huge bargain for a DAC. It’s amazing what new design technology can do to benefit music lovers to sonic bliss. I have a relatively good ear and cannot say one way or the other why one unit’s design and materials are superior to the other as I have inadequate electrical knowledge but I am shocked at how affordable DACs (and for others who stream) good sound is available.

@markwd You hit the nail on the head.  I was evicted by Amir from ASR a couple years ago (I knew nothing about the site at the time but noticed it was very active).  I mentioned that I preferred a digital cable and of course, maybe a dozen acolytes tore me a new one for not adopting their "cables are all the same" and "fuses are all the same if they measure the same" mantra.  I noticed another post concerning an isolation platform for large amps and they did the same to him.  ASR has a place but so many vitriolic members that it's a big negative "vibe" (ironic).  Well, I'm glad to have Audiogon and WBF forums where I can trade information and learn. 

It was J.Gordon Holt in a about 40 year old Stereophile who imagined activated carbon filtering built into walls as bass traps.  I took his advice and did the same in my 2019 custom built listening room (see my profile for details about my room).  When Von Schweikert came to set up speakers as a friend, it took only 1.25 or 1.5 hours instead of his 5 hour blocked out time frame.  The room is so well designed/built that it is a breeze to set up (without resorting to DSP).  I finally had the great sound and dispersion that I never had after 20 years of stats and then 22 years of dynamic speakers (except those Signature IIIs in my living room).  

Until this year, I was using Legacy Signature IIIs (superior to the Focus) which I purchased in 2004 for $1600, running them with highly modified Dynaco ST70 (tremendous bass when made a voltage regulated amp rather than ultralinear) or with a simple tube pre-amp. My friends still use older tube gear and their audio systems are fabulous sounding. I have the ability to splurge and enjoy high end sound now in my custom built room while keeping that system above for the living room (quite impressive to guests-out of the box sound that is rich, dynamic, enveloping and with great dispersion). Yet for analog, I’ve gone backwards in price and am using a Dynavector 20X2L. It is perfectly set up in a highly modified SME IV-sounds great on so many LPs rather than just the best recorded and pressed. $1100 cartridge in a $200K system plus I don’t fear using it or breaking it compared to a much more expensive cartridge. Now that I have solid state amps (Westminster Labs REI) as well, the only continuing cost is replacing the cartridge every 3 to 4 years.

The main problem with ASR is Amir. If he were a congenial host who conceded that there are many ways to audio bliss which can include exotic and/or high end gear, he wouldn’t be demonized. Look at What’s Best Audio Forum. Most posters are congenial and obliging of alternative views, anxious to hear what’s new, posing answers as to what improvements can be made to existing equipment. Generally, it’s expensive equipment. No one ever put me down when years ago I posted the question if most CD transports were not as important as the DACs. Of course I was 100% incorrect.

I knew that Amir was a cofounder of WBF.  If he hadn't left, I'm certain that after years of derogatory statements of opinion as fact, he would be booted off.  He is just incendiary to most acute music lovers and listeners.  My friends and I tried PS Audio gear (for me the latest CD transport).  We disliked all of their products.  For less money, I purchased a Jay's Audio CDt3 Mk3-near SOTA quality product at PS Audio price.

My friend with a high end system ($400-$500K) had his 250 watt BHK Signature amp on a YG Sonya 2.3s and I told him (he was an electrical engineer and never performed music and rarely hears live music) it was poor match.  He tried at least a dozen amps and currently owns three with only the Moscode 402 AU sounding good.  

So, a Mola Mola which I haven't heard, should be better than a PS Audio (whose employees are very nice people, just like Synergistic Research whose products are mostly irrelevant in my system).  

Imagine testing a Lampizator Horizon or my Poseidon against a Topping.  The best test is hearing the Lampy in a high resolution system.  While my Topping D70s sounds great and even my wife (not a musician or audiophile) said it sounds like LPs, my Poseidon sounds even better at 50X the price.  It's like her Genesis G80 turbo 3.5 a is superior driving experience to her 2002 Lexus LS 430.  Both have a comfortable ride but she stopped driving the Lexus.  

There are many paths to great music reproduction of sound and most do not run through Amir and ASR, only a few do.  How about testing a Benchmark amp or flavor of the month Topping versus my Westminster Labs REIs?  If the latter loses in the test, the test is no way indicative of the huge chasm in quality of sound reproduction in favor of the REIs.  I was a tube amp user for 50+ years.  The REI amps are better, maybe a reason that the aficionados of them switched from low powered single ended amps and huge behemoth tube and solid state amps.  They may or may not be classic Class A amps as uniquely designed minimizing parts and wiring but they are small, cool  and drive 1 ohm loads with 800 watts sounding better than the several Class A tube amps I've used and heard.  Exquisitely.  What the goal of a Class D amp should sound like if it could.   

@rgs Well, 2800+ comments on my two older forums on ASR should adequately provide all the information on Amir plus in this forum he can't help himself to utterly prove who and what he is.

Why does Topping have so many DACs both in the past and currently?  Because they sound different from one another.  They are designing different sounding DACs with different designs and parts.  But why?  To stay relevant in this rapidly changing market where new is better?  Or perhaps honestly attempting to make better and better DACs?   Whatever the reason, my friends and I have found one of their DACs to be a superior quality one at now ridiculously low price as a discontinued item.  No, the D70s is not as good as the Lampizators but is sells for 50X+ less than my Poseidon.  It only revealed how excellent it was using a $5000 CD transport.  Another inexpensive transport the Shanling ET3 was an inadequate match and there is a large number of satisfied listeners who are very happy with this top loading transport. 

Audio equipment designers have their own sound preferences.  If the equipment owner cares about the sound quality (so many determine purchases based on price, appearance and other factors as well prior to or irrelevant to sound reproduction), they desire to match it.  It becomes infinitely more complicated with a system approach with multiple separate components are involved as well as the room acoustics and the ancillary connecting equipment. 

I have found that even bending the upper fold of my left ear reveals greater air and presence on the left side of my hearing than it's current curvature.  Imagine all the permutations of listeners with their different aural physical structures and nervous systems.  While measurements can help in determining distortion and other performance aspects of equipment, they are generally inadequate alone to help build an audio system without just one manufacturer designing a specific "sound" preference for a full component line, 

ASR is a poor example for choosing audio equipment to create a high quality listening experience.  It can point to adequacies and inadequacies of a single component, sometimes relative to a few other components.   Dismissing entire sectors of equipment (cabling, fuses, anti-vibration devices, etc) negates essential components except for all in one systems (speakers with built in integrated equipment).  

So many great comments in this forum on hearing.  I am a part time musician and recording engineer who has the advantage of also being an "audiophile."  My audiophilia is limited (despite my recent funding of end game speakers, amps and DAC/pre-amp).  I don't swap equipment often and sell what I don't intend to use again.  Without DSP, a critical component is the room acoustics and is still inadequately considered by most audiophiles (I know of many who swap equipment on a quite regular basis).  

@deep_333  That's correct.  I dislike nearly all other Topping DACs (I've heard 3 older ones).  This unit has been extensively praised by reviewers and owners.  This is the one two of my friends use, one is a spendthrift with limited funds and the other a very wealthy audiophile who probably has a dozen DACs he plays with. 

I especially enjoyed the D70s openness listening to complex acoustic orchestral and opera.  No problem with heavy metal that my wife listens to occasionally.  I understand you finding some other D model inferior.  It could be.  I am using a very high end audio system to evaluate it's potential.  It will probably be used in my second system for occasional use for CDs and streaming.  

Kevin and Markwd  I know I don't have your knowledge of electronics.  I do know how to record something as simple as a piano quartet and make it sound at least as good (usually better) than issued recordings (I've been doing this for over 40 years).  I start with a great recording venue, then a simple two mike digital recorder located within 15 feet from the performers, recorded even as low as 16/44 resolution, adding no reverb only music tracks and voila, a mastertape quality recording (it certainly helps when one has all professional touring performers).  

Most listeners of acoustic music do not get to experience live performances in great venues.  It helps train one's ear.   I've heard over 400 opera performances and either performed or heard 1000s of choral and orchestral performances.  When I evaluate audio equipment, I require multiple types and recordings.  There are an infinite number of variables beginning at the recording chain and then the final mastered product.  Just using my simple recordings give me a reference for comparison.  @deep_333 is incorrect in his analysis of the Topping D70s concerning an inability to reproduce dense, complex music which means either his (assumption of gender) recording(s) or his ancillary equipment are at fault (or he has a defective Topping unit).  VERY IMPORTANT-apparently about 1/3 of these units come with inverted polarity.  There is a built-in correction on the main menu.  Huge difference.  It may only effect XLR output though.  I didn't test single ended output.

@pynkfloydd Was it Bruce Brisson who developed the first Monster ICs the M300? That was the best cable for the price although it had soft, rolled off highs and limited resolution but it had a smooth, warm mid-range. Today, a comparable inflation adjusted cable that is extremely superior is Bedlen/Blue Jeans ICs (well, the XLRs). I use their XSRs in a $200,000+ system.

I heard 3 levels of Transparent speaker/system cable at an LA Show where the more expensive the system (up to $750K), the more awful the sound. Don’t even mention High Fidelity cabling with those horrible giant in-line magnets.

As to the Topping DACs, I’ve now heard 5, mostly early ones with the super high resolution but poor musical sound. The Topping D70s turns out to be their best. My best friend uses it in a modest priced system anchored by Von Schweikert VR35 export speakers. In my system with Lampizator Poseidon DAC/pre-amp which is $25K, the Poseidon is NOT 50X better than the Topping. Maybe 30% to 50%. I paid more as it was designed as a pre-amp and the Topping pre-amp is awful (probably just a cheap op-amp). As a DAC, this Topping is super musical osounding. It lacks the dynamic contrast, soundstage width and depth and music separation (instruments/voices) of the Poseidon but unless there is a head to head ccomparison, it’s a tremendous bargain and physically unimposing. The SOTA DAC costs much more than a superb one. I also own a (near or actual) SOTA CD transport in the Jay’s Audio CDt3 Mk3. For $5K, it is 5X to 10X less expensive than exotic French and Swiss transports or even upper cost Esoteric units.

As to phono cartridges, most of my friends use Dynavector or have multiple arms/cartridges. I have multiple tables for 78s and microgroove so I use a less expensive, less resolving 20X2 L with a SUT costing 3X, table at 7X and arm at 4X the cartridge price . The reason is it is a nearly universal LP transcriber. I own 31,100 LPs from 1950 mono to 200 45 rpm recuts. This relatively inexpensive cartridge provides great sound although not SOTA for the best mastered modern stereo LPs and great sound for my older, noisier vinyl 1950s mono LPs.

Just my two cents at this point of this mostly Amir/ASR discussion. Since my original forum, Amir began posting on Oct 16, 2022, now up to 754. He spends an inordinate amount of time on ONLY Audiogon forums involving ASR. I have 1,934 posts in 23 years from 2001. 3X the posts in 10X more years. He is OBSSESSED with a few recent forums. (I did learn from many forums I participated in, not like Amir who apparently learns nothing and knows it all).

@kevn Oy Vey! I return to this forum and it looks, sounds and smells just like my two prior forums with 2000+ posts. Here Amir has utterly dominated the conversation (is it a conversation or dictatorship (conversational narcississt).

@mofojo Well as far as answering my questions in my last two forums, no good answer why Topping is compelled to continual develop new DACs, is it 4 or 5 quality levels and how many within each level? If the D90III is the best ever, do we nope to see a D90IV or V or another number D100? Such foolishness (and marketing). The best musical sounding of the Toppings with many positive reviews giving reasons why is the Topping D70s. It just is unless gets a bum unit that is just off whether in or out of phase setting. The good units are superlative, even at many times their original price, now cut in half used, as if they aren’t as good as ever. Compared to a SOTA, they fall short, not in musicality but in sonic capabilities. Why so many, many DACs? If they are nearly perfect, is a drop in noise by 2 or 5db that critical. Something is very wrong with their philosophy-most qquality audio manufacturers do NOT change models constantly PER YEAR. Some like Synergistic Research, change fuses every 2 years on a schedule and up the prices each time. That sounds as ridiculous as the massive changes of Chinese DACs annually or biannually as well.

I've never heard a system which I liked which was wired with Transparent cable.  I've heard only about two dozen all high cost systems.  

@deep_333 That's hilarious.  I'm sending it to my wife and friends.  

My last statement "I've heard only about two dozen all high cost systems." WITH Transparent cables (I've heard many 100s of high end systems, maybe 500 at shows and showrooms).  Just clarification.