Belles dual mono integrated. A lot less $$$$ than Simaudio and sounds fabulous.
Separates vs Integrated
Hi, my current set up consists of a Coda 07x Pre, Krell 300 XD Duo. I almost exclusively stream with a Lumin U2 mini with S-Booster feeding a PS Audio Direct Stream MKii.
I get drawn into thinking a really well done Integrated could be as good or better, something like the Hegel H600. Logic being the synergy the Hegel should have outweighing the potential debatable benefits of separates. Taking out of the equation my current set up has more flexibility, assuming I would likely keep the Lumin, crazy to think the integrated would match my current set up?
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@mm1tt77 I recommend you demo a few integrated amps in your system if you can find a dealer that will let you bring the gear home. I demoed a pair of mono block amps and an integrated amp at two separate dealers and they didn’t sound to my liking at the dealers. I asked to bring them home and was shocked at how good they sounded at home. My buddy demoed the integrated at the dealer with me and he said it sounded so terrible to him that he wouldn’t have asked to bring it home because he didn’t feel it would improve that much at home. The dealer and I have the same exact speakers used for the demo, but different streamers, DAC, cables and the room of course. Well, my buddy came over to my house to demo the same integrated in question and really liked it. He said he couldn’t believe it was the same unit we demoed at the store. That long story is simple, get the gear in your setup and hear it for yourself. The debate about separates being superior to integrateds and vice-versa is not something I recommend you get caught up in. How does either one of the choices sound in your space is the key. I’ve gone back in forth with separates and integrateds, so I like both. BUT, there is no better experience than trying it for yourself. Yes, it can be tedious and difficult to get your hands on these products for in-home demos, but that’s the way to go. I wanted to go back to an integrated after my experience with my Luxman L-509x that I sold. I regret selling the Luxman and it’s a long story as to why I sold it, but there was absolutely nothing wrong with the Luxman! What I did, most recently, was narrow down all the integrateds that I was interested in. I had (3) integrateds of interest and the Luxman was 1 of 3 and I knew what it sounded like because I owned it, but they do have the new L-509z that’s supposed to be better. 2. Gryphon Diablo 333 Integrated 3. Luxman L-509z Integrated I got the D’Agostino Progression for an in-home demo and I was DONE! I bought it used from the dealer with a warranty. This unit definitely had enough power and the creepy crawly details, but the sweetness I was after. I’ve had super detailed gear before, but after listening to a considerable amount of my music library, my ears would tighten at times with jazz ride cymbals and some jazz with trumpets, etc. Not so with the DAG! Depending on the manufacturer, a well designed integrated will be hard to beat without spending a lot of money on separates. Lastly, room acoustic treatments was a priority for me after so many years without using them. I have a lot of GIK treatments, but recently bought tube traps and wall panels from Acoustic Sciences Corp. (ASC). I plan to use them in my dedicated listening room upon completion in about 60 days. Good luck! |
A DIY Built Pre Amp at a cost of approx' £300 was the Pre-Amp chosen by an individual with a very expensive system. At the time of trying out Pre Amp's, Branded Commercial designs had been used in the system up to £5K in value. This same Pre Amp is still in use today about 3-4 Years on. The only change being very recently it has been co-joined in use by another DIY design for a Pre-Amp to increase the options on an end sound the system can produce. The total costs on Pre Amps at present is up to about £800 |
That would be the logical conclusion since you do generally get what you pay for with consumer products. For whatever reason though, over the long haul, I’ve found that rule of thumb doesn’t really apply to “audiophile” stereo components. It mostly does with speakers, but with ancillaries, it’s largely a crapshoot. For example, the Topping Pre90 and A70 Pro preamps. Both retail for about $500, and both outperformed the $5500 McIntosh C49 in my system, by a rather wide margin. Both are/were better sounding than the Mac by every metric. I’ve had similar experiences with DACs, integrateds and amps. For another example, I had a Yamaha A-S500 integrated (bought on closeout for $250) that mostly embarrassed the $3000 Rogue Pharaoh. I could cite at least half a dozen more examples where the “Chi-Fi” or mass market underdog handily defeated a comparatively boutique brand. Unfortunately, similar to the world of remodeling contractors, there seem to be a large number of hifi companies that fail to back up their talk. Seems many rely on a listener’s confirmation bias to make the sale.
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It’s certainly an interesting question. Would a $30,000 integrated sound better than a $1,000 amp and a $1,000 preamp. Well I hope so and it better. Would a $10,000 integrated sound better than a $5,000 amp and a $5,000 preamp? Maybe. I’m sure there are some nice integrated amps at that price point. The other issue with separates is compatibility. Will they work well with each other? Hopefully but you never know. With an integrated you shouldn’t have that issue. |
I’ve encountered integrateds that outperform many separates combos, but also the inverse. All else being equal, separates tend to be better. For example, Parasound separates outperform the Parasound integrated, as they should given the cost difference. OTOH, an integrated like the Gryphon Diablo, and to a lesser extent (I dare to say) my Yamaha A-S2100, can outperform quite a few separates systems. For example, my $1600 (used market price) Yamaha sounds better than many separates systems I’ve compiled that mated tube preamps to solid state amps, such as the Allnic L-1500 with a Benchmark AHB2 amp ($8500 combined retail) but the Benchmark LA4 preamp mated to the AHB2 amp is better than the Yamaha in a few regards. I’m pretty certain I would trade any of my current separates/integrateds for a Gryphon Diablo 300, however, even pre-owned Diablos sell for many times the price of my Yamaha. The performance delta is not worth it to me currently. What’s most amusing to me is that the Yamaha’s preamp section better creates all the normally sought tube sonics (lushness, decay, midrange, dimensionality) than any tube-based unit I’ve owned/tried regardless of price, all while being quieter and more resolving. I had a similar experience as @yyzsantabarbara and @zlone regarding a Coda preamp. I much preferred the dead-silent Benchmark LA4. It’s bizarre that Coda manufactures some very quiet power amps but then compromises the noise floor with their preamp designs. Baffling. They need a new preamp designer, maybe one from Guangzhou, China. 😂 If you can do with a simple pre with only 2 inputs and outputs, the Topping A70 Pro preamp/HP amp is stupidly good and not just for its price. To my knowledge, it also happens to be the quietest, lowest distortion preamp in existence from an objective standpoint. My only noteworthy experience with Hegel is with their H190 integrated. It produced a very smooth but rather blunted sound. It was mostly underwhelming relative to other integrateds I’ve owned at its price point. If anything it performed better as a preamp/DAC than as a full integrated. One thing for certain is that its claimed noise spec is absolute horse manure. Bench tests I’ve seen for their products confirm that their specs are grossly exaggerated, and their feed-forward distortion/noise reduction “tech” is essentially ineffective.
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Maybe I will say a strange idea for the forum, but try to look at this topic from the point of view of your life. We will never find "that very sound", because we listen to different music and our perception of sound changes with age. But if you are interested in searching and experimenting and you can afford it, why deny yourself the pleasure of trying new different components? And when it stops bringing you happiness and you just want to listen to your favorite song, you can change the whole system to one good integrated amplifier and not dance with cables, etc. I also consider integrated amplifiers more of a lifestyle, one beautiful thing looks good on a modest stand or an expensive chest of drawers in a strict interior. But not everyone is interested in this. And there is a compromise option: deal only with the source that you listen to the most, for example, take an integrated preamplifier-amplifier, and select a DAC + streamer separately. For example, I listen to vinyl more, so I use a separate phono preamp, and the DAC, streamer and amplification are all in one integrated amplifier. It seems to me that you need to look at the needs, and not how it sounds, because everything sounds good in its own way in this price segment. |
My destination integrated is a Dartzeel CTH 8550 MK2. = Close to Heaven 85% of the separates at 50% the price. For what you get with a great phono stage at $43K it is a bargain. The SQ, to me, puts it in a class all by itself.
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@jsalerno277 awesome you are in the Burmester club, its awesome gear and imo will run with the best of them |
Integrated amps have the advantage of being “integrated” by experts ( you would expect). Whereas you have to integrate separates. That provides flexibility but the flip side is there are more possible outcomes that are not all equal. I am not an expert. With separates it took some trial and error to end up at a better place. Integrated amp technology has come a long way. Definitely the lower risk option. |
In my earlier system I went all the way up the Naim amplifier chain to the NAP 500DR and the 552DR together with the 101 tuner. Between them they took up a helluva lot of rack space and with the separate power supplies a helluva lot of cables. A chance discussion at Munich some years ago motivated me to try a Vitus SIA 025, despite my doubts about its power output. The Vitus sound quality was significantly better and the power output was entirely adequate..The decluttering benefits and cable demands were very welcome. A couple of years ago I upgraded to the Vitus SIA 030 which is even better though obviously more expensive. I have not heard the integrated Vitus Reference series in my home,but only at demos and they too are very good, but not as good as the Signature series I have or had, which reflects their lower price. Here in the UK the Vitus integrated amps hold their value well which is a big plus. Depreciation can be very costly when you come to upgrade. Vitus do have their separate pre and power amps, but I am entirely happy with my integrated 030.
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If the Separates Amplification System already in use is not satisfying your needs in the way the end sound being produced is able to be enjoyed. Especially if there is something that is detectable and noticeable for being missing. Which through previous mails comments made in this Thread, I suspect there is something not quite to your unique preference. It does seem the idea of making a change is going to come to the forefront. If the Pre' and Power Amp's are to be let go, the realistic remuneration will be approx' $11K, if the Used Sale Items go through smoothly. Where are the advantages to be found from using a particular design for an Integrated Amp. Firstly the Amps Schematic and Topology 'can be' one that is produced to take full advantage of the merits associated with a substantially shortened Signal Path. Taking the Cheap Chassis Mounted Umbilical Connectors away from the Signal Path, or even the taking out of the Signal Path, the much more expensive types of Chassis Mounted Umbilical Connectors, undoubtedly has benefits for the Signal when being transferred through the Audio System have Voltage Gain added. What is lost by removing Chassis Mounted Connectors between Amps is basically choice. By the removal of Chassis Mounted Connectors, the Individuals Option of being able to make changes to the interface the Signal Path is dependent on is removed. The exchanges of Wire Types / Cable Construction Methods, usually seen under discussion are no longer readily available, neither is the option to Spend Monies to whatever budget can be allocated to infill the Signal Path between the Pre > Power Amplifiers Chassis Mounted Connectors. The user of the Integrated Amplifier, when placed into the segment of Amp Usage that is limited to being an enthusiast for replaying recorded music through the use of Audio Equipment, results in Trust needing to be put in place for the Designers choice made for the interface between Pre > Power section within the Integrated Amp. The Link will introduce the Sales Spiel and offer a description of a Design Intent for an Integrated Amplifier that is professing to have the Shortest of Signal Path as the utmost importance for the design. This Amp is relatively new to the Market, and as used Integrated Amplifier Purchase is approx' $18K. The predecessor design can be found for approx' $8K. It is worth a read to reinforce where the merits of selecting an Integrated Amplifier can be found. FWIW, my retirement Amplifier will no longer be Valve Amplification, the new Amp to be used, will be a SS Design, that is to be a Commission Built model of a commonly seen DIY Build Kit Amp. The likelihood will be a Pre Amp will be built into the same Chassis as the Power Amp. |
Coda CSiB is a really good integrated. I had the V1 version which is 150/300/600w per channel into 8/4/2. The CSiB drove my Wilson Sabrina no issues. I am using Boulder 866 now. I would say both amps are excellent and it comes down to personal preference and what works best with your setup. |
In my experience, separates will usually prevail b/c they're further up the food chain then most integrateds and are made from better parts and engineering. Having said that, the latest few generations of dual mono integrates are getting really close. The one box, fewer cables can be very appealing and deliver superior bang for the buck. I own a Hegel H590 and did an inhouse side by side of the H600 vs my unit. The H600 is just a bit better and might give your current rig a run for the money. If you could reach a little higher the Gryphon Diablo integrated that just came out is supposed to be on another level and would be worth a listen. Good luck and cheers. |
All kinds of I have, you should get this or that brand type added with we sell this type of bias crap heaped in. Useless information and or post. Try naming a company that makes both integrated and separates in the same value range that boast their integrates are better. No sharing parts is better period ! |
If money is no object, Separates rock. However, I used to run separates, one preamp and two amps, and found that all of the interconnects add up. I switched to a McIntosh MA 12000 and since I only needed one interconnect from my Lumin T2 streamer, I was able to go with AQ Dragons. My dealer wants me to go with the new HiFi Rose streamer and still to come out, power supply for it, But I am curious about the 432 Evo. |
I know how it goes finding the right preamp, I have spent a couple years looking for the right fit for my system. I have Coda #8 and have tried Schiit, Ayre, Coda, Benchmark and now Pass. The Pass has been the best so far, by a good margin, the Benchmark was good too, but quite dry. The Coda 07x was not to my liking, same comment as @yyzsantabarbara , it is noisy, and artificially warm. Switching to an integrated will just give you a whole new set of problems, with less flexibility. Keep looking for the right preamp, you haven’t found it yet. |
I cannot comment on new Krell. I have not auditioned them in my on system. I compared the Burmester to the Krell models I had. I do not find Burmester equipment cool. It provides clarity without artificial chill . I find the house sound sweet with natural timbre, and highly detailed without an overly extended treble which some manufacturers use to increase detail. Use cymbal reproduction as an example, or soprano sibilance. I find the 032 one of the best at these tests. Yes, personal taste in SQ and complete system synergy is critical. Yes, I can see where you state it would not be match for speakers that have midrange troughs or treble peaks. However, I consider myself lucky to have very good, (balanced and cohesive from 30 to 20k Hz) speakers (Vivid Giya G3s) that I feel are synergistic with the 032, as well as paying attention to setup detail (except for my small home and poor room that I cannot change). The beauty of this hobby is we all have personal SQ preferences, and synergy mandates we all should audition in our own systems. To each our own. In conclusion, the 032, along with the Bolder, CH, and D’Agostino integrated offerings are some of the best SS offerings I have auditioned, I find more than competitive with separates. |
Well that’s just a total non starter. If you can’t be more specific about what specific improvements you’re looking for, even people who happen to own your pre and amp will have absolutely no idea of which directions you’re looking to go. In short, this is a total crapshoot because nobody knows where you’re aiming and we don’t have crystal balls here. I could throw out manufacturers like Gryphon, Vitus, etc. but it means nothing because I’ve absolutely no idea what you’re looking for. Do you understand how this is an utter waste of time for anyone who actually cares and wants to put some thought into making a meaningful recommendation here? I wish you luck, but short of you being able to provide at least any idea of what you’re looking for besides just “synergy” this is just a total shot in the dark and an utter waste of time. |
jsalerno277
the older Krell gear is not as good as the newer gear I used to work at a Burmeister dealer great gear but its signature could be too cool for some listeners the key is synergy and if your speakers were too warm warm the the Burmeister would be a better match. and unless you spend 20k or above the ops current system with a few tweaks would outperform most integrated amplifiers.
Dave and Troy Audio Intellect NJ. |
I was a Krell aficionado for years, well maintaining a KSA 300s and KRC HR recapping them every 5 years. On my last recap schedule my Krell dealer provided me with a Burmester 032 integrated amplifier a customer of his was selling as a loaner until service was completed Within 15 minutes of him leaving with my Krells, I was on the phone with him saying he was not getting the Burmester back, negotiating a deal for him to keep the Krells and for me to purchase the Burmester. Gone was the dark, heavy Krell signature sound. It was replaced with a clarity I never experienced before. That clarity was achieved with an a tube like midrange and treble but without tube like thickness. Compared to tubes I have experience with and with my old Krells, there was improved speed, transient response, leading edge, micro & macro dynamics, imaging and soundstage. Of particular note was improved retrieval of secondary harmonics, decay, and ambience retrieval similar to good tubes I have heard such as AR, but in a SS platform. i did not loose anything in bass response even though I went from 300 to 105 WPC into 8 ohms. My speakers are not that efficient (87db) but there is no issue in driving them. There are not many pro reviews on the 032 but the 911 power amp is well reviewed and describes the Burmester sound as I have described. It has all the inputs anyone will need. I do not know your budget. It is expensive. A used 032 will run $10 to $12k. New is $25k. If you can afford new, it is not a good buy unless you get a discount. A new model, the 232 is coming out with integrated DAC/Streamer. Other good integrated include offerings for Bolder, CH Precision, D’Augostino. Todays top of the line integrateds are more than competitive and perhaps equal or better to separates. |
We are Kell and Coda dealers you have a great amp and preamp the issue we would have is the Coda preamp is a little too neutral we would recommend looking at either upgrading the coda to a tube preamp or upgrading your streamer the Lunin is very good however the 432evo servers sound way more analog then the Lumin
we compared the Aeon to a 27k Innous statement next gen and the Aeon sounded just as good. Dave and Troy Audio Intellect NJ krell Coda and 432evo dealers
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About three years ago, I had to downsize my audio system because I had to move from a very large room in the house to a smaller room in the house. After extensive, exhaustive research and auditioning, I opted for the Hegel H590 integrated amp to drive my power hungry Revel Salon 2 speakers. All I can tell you is this, the Hegel H590 has become my end-game amplification for the foreseeable future. Happy listening. |
@yyzsantabarbara thaka for the info, reply, the Holo Serene is interesting. I agree on the Krell Amp, I’ve been lucky enough to be able to try various amps and it’s been my favorite. Noise and synergy are what have me asking the question. I have found it’s hard to match a pre to the Krell. I had a Krell Illusions ii Pre, no surprise it paired the best out of any pre I have tried, dead quite. Sound wise, didn’t love it the way I should have. @soix my system sounds really good currently but the gains / synergy between the gear is where I think I could potentially improve. It’s that synergy that has me wonder about a high end integrated vs what I have. My next upgrade is likely a streamer if I stick with separates. @grislybutter I’m chasing synergy but I shouldn’t at the expense of quality of my set up. I’ve had a Krell Pre with a DAC on my system, the gain match was perfect, was quiet. Sound was very good but not great. I found separate DAC’s improved sound and various Pre’s also sounded better. But, matching this amp with a pre has been more of a challenge than I would have thought. Seems to be really sensitive to the gain / voltage settings in the Pre. Thanks for all of your responses, appreciate it. |
You’ve got a nice pre and amp so begs the question what specific improvements are you looking for? Personally, and especially if you like the sound you have now, I’d look to upgrade your streamer first — something like an Aurender N200 or Innuos Pulse or Pulsar would almost certainly provide significant improvements. |
I had a KRELL Duo 175XD amp (loved it) and the CODA 07x preamp (hated it). I came from the CODA CsiB and the KRELL K-300i (the latest Duo XD model). I currently have the CODA #16 (love it). Separates are better in every case I tried. I tried many combos. With that great KRELL amp you have my fav was the Benchmark LA4 preamp. The Holo Serene KTE would also be good if you want to stay closer to the 07x sound. However, the 07x and KRELL is not my favorite combo at all. The 07x is noisier than the 2 preamps I mentioned (by a lot) and warmth on top of warmth is too much heat for me. Try the LA4 on a 30-day home trial or get one cheap on USAM. I also have a great streamer in the Lumin X1 (sold it) and the Sonore OpticalRendu (kept it) when I had the KRELL Duo 175XD. I only do Fibre Optic streaming. The RJ45 streaming on the KRELL K-300i was very convenient but not as good as Fibre. |