Send in the Clowns

There is a contingent on Audio Asylum (and probably here) that will tell you that all amps sound the same and only the speakers matter, so for them even the measurements don't matter.

This type of half ass crap has been going on for decades. It has nothing to do with audio equipment. Its purely emotional. The concept of high end audio and certain products like cables, offends some people to the very core if their existence. They don't want the truth, they just want the argument. And to them, everything hinges on measurements and science for proof. I'm going to give you some information that most people overlook. When they start talking science, ask them this question.

"Can you reference some type of review, comparison, study, test, etc..., where real science was used in the evaluation, on any piece of audio equipment ever made?"

Just 1 example where real science was applied during the testing. You will not get an answer. They can't come up with a single reference where science was used. Think about that. The science crowd has never used science when evaluating audio equipment. That can only mean 1 thing. Everything they say is based on a lie. Every time someone wants to put their money where their mouth is and have them take part in a real evaluation, they run. Talking is the only thing they're willing to do.   

What does it mean to “use real science?”

This is what "trust the science" means now.  Scientists, or non-scientists,  look at some subset of data which points to the conclusion they want. 

Subjective listening descriptions are critical, but most people offer them without a lot of relevant details (room acoustics, associated equipment, source quality, etc.). Including those variables makes it possible for others to gauge whether a reported quality might be something they’d also experience. When they are not included, the reports are only reliable as the expression of someone’s feelings masquerading as an objective report.

In other words, measurements on their own may be highly problematic as a guide to the sound, but the solution isn’t just subjective listening reports -- those too can be worthless without some kind of report about other factors.

The clowns will keep making the content when there are so many clowns applauding it and clicking the like button. As the comments state above, they feed each other with it. 

Similarly, a few days ago I mistakingly noticed and partially watched a youtube video titled "9000 dollar speaker cable against 14 dollar speaker cable". I was curious. Not surprisingly after watching about 30 seconds of it I could see the conclusion was there was going to be no difference. Talk about bias. The clown said he would connect one speaker cable into a $10 dollar switch, then from the switch into another set of DIY speaker cables, then into a mono speaker. He said the additional 2 foot piece of cable he made was a quality cable, and therefore should make no difference. What an idiot. 

Of course there were over 900 comments stating the usual "fools and their money" "all cable is the same" comments. Why even bother posting a logical comment to the flat-earthers- they are not only deaf but blind to common sense. 

Yep, like reviewing a performance car without driving it. 

@laoman then why waste your and our time?

@jaybe +1 -- basically the forum’s equivalent of "Old Man Yells at Cloud" 

@jaybe 
If you think it is a waste of time, then do not comment.
 

Personally, I listen to music,comedy, podcasts, etc. 

Perhaps some people, instead, listen to test tones????

@laoman Daniel von Recklinghausen, the head engineer of HH Scott (a US manufacturer of tube amplifiers in the 1950s and 60s) once said all you need to know:

If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing.

If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing.

This statement should preface every thread on every audio forum on the internet. 

And if you measure but do not listen, you have engaged in a pointless exercise.

Thanks for starting the thread - this debate has bothered me for some time.

The career I've been in for nearly 30 years involves analytical testing of both fluidic and electronic systems, all of which sits well outside the realm of audio. That experience has, however, made me realize what I view as an objective truth: In the grand scheme of things, the ability to measure electrical signal has not been with us for very long at all, relative to all "things" that can be measured. Moreover, it's probably fair to assume that the advancements in electrical signal measurement have been driven by an interest in measuring "things" other than those that translate to auditory perception. It should therefore not be particularly surprising that we've only broken the edge of being able to measure audio signals in ways that translate to how our brains perceive sound.

A good analog would be to travel back a few hundred years to a time when optical technology was in its infancy and we still believed Earth was the center of the universe. Through optical advancements, we've clearly come to understand otherwise. And with time, perhaps we'll be able to measure the audio signal charcteristics that translate to how our brains perceive audio properties such as sound stage and imaging, and the auditory queues for spacial arrangement we can perceive in highly resolving audio systems. 

For now, I'm perfectly happy to enjoy the experience I perceive with my system and accept the fact that no one can currently explain through signal measurement how the changes I perceive in cables and electronics affect that experience. And yes, I'm well aware of placebo and confirmation bias effects.

“Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted”

William Bruce Cameron (quoted famously by Albert Einstein)

From personal experience, and accounts of other audio friends, I’ve listened to many of the inexpensive overseas and US made top measuring chip DACS as measured by a well known “scientific” audio forum.
These DACS sound mediocre at best. Nominally gray, flat, electronic sounding. Lack of: color, life, and inner vitality that keeps one from really getting something out of a good listening session. DACS like this are good for cars, desktop PC speakers, etc but can’t compare to the much better musical DACS available.

Basic measurements are an important part of design and basic functional verification but their response to passing musical signals and the relevance of that analog result to “musicality”, simply can’t be quantified. As Nelson Pass said, IIRC, our ears are not microphones, and our brains are not oscilloscopes”.

People perceive things differently and have preferences when it comes to sound.  That’s why there is no perfect speaker (or other piece of equipment).  I was reading some of the studies published on sound on the AES website and it was interesting what people perceived and preferred.  There was not 100% agreement on any one thing.  It brings me back to people trusting their ears.  Watching videos and reading comments it appears some people want validation about what they’re hearing and others want to convince others that what they believe is gospel and heaven help the person that disagrees.  We don’t all have to agree.  If you believe something sounds better because you tried this or switched to that, then it does.  Let’s all enjoy our music and our musical journey.  That’s what this hobby is all about to me.

I like measurements derived from good engineering and science, including user studies that ask critical questions about what groups of listeners perceive as better. By looking deeply at the science and how human hearing appears to operate we can get better reproduction equipment. We certainly want, at first blush, equipment that accurately reproduces the original recording which means we want exceptional fidelity that can be assessed via principled measurements. Now some folks like coloring the reproduced sound to suit their preferences. Luckily, we are in a golden age where DSP can be used to achieved almost any outcome and room treatments can compensate where DSP can’t quite deliver. At least we can measure those outcomes, though!

But I do like this hobby and the musical journey, and especially like that we have great measurement resources that can help us distinguish exceptionally engineered equipment from merely overpriced and underwhelming hype.

If it wasn't a tube amp, then it doesn't matter. It will sound the same as every other amp ever made. Clown.

" It will sound the same as every other amp ever made. Clown."
I am glad you admit that this statement is a clownish one. It has to be satire as this is completely absurd.

As a matter of interest, the head clown, whose name I still will not mention, now claims he knows more than Bruno Putzeys. Both the arrogance and self delusion are strong in this one.

Ask yourself these two questions. Can I live with and be happy with my audio equipment if it measures really well but doesn’t sound great? Conversely, can I live with and be happy with my audio equipment if it sounds great but doesn’t measure well at all?

@ghdprentice

"Yep, like reviewing a performance car without driving it. "

Or reviewing a restaurant by looking at the menu.

Low IQ alert fellas...IQ of this deaf creature = 20

\\  \\

If it wasn’t a tube amp, then it doesn’t matter. It will sound the same as every other amp ever made.

@tony1954 

+1

@deep_333

+1

Still, it’s the title to a great tune! Send in the clowns…

https://youtu.be/fOUrnUktTjU?si=cu6Zzo7dmxZV8lAv

Using Science as a fetish object, or a pseudo religion. There's plenty about human perception and consciousness we don't know, and that directly overlaps with measurement technique.

@acefactory Well said! Thank you.

@deep_333 

20? That seems generous…

If the fruit smells rotten shall we still taste it to be sure? 💡

@mapman 
I guess you have never eaten durian?

"If it wasn't a tube amp, then it doesn't matter. It will sound the same as every other amp ever made. Clown."

@squared80 

We have a good friend who recently got into wine. In fact, so new, he honestly still thinks all red wine tastes the same regardless of the varietal, producer, terroir, year, climate, winemaker, etc... 

What I really appreciate about him, other than he really wants to learn / expand his palate, is that he would never call those of us who can taste all the complexities wine has to offer, and find amazing joy in doing so, 'clowns', 'frauds' or 'scammers', because we can.

To quote Ted Lasso: "Be Curious, Not Judgmental"

Cheers -  

@maxlarson 

+1

@maxlarson 

+2 

People need to understand that these are "discussions", not MMA.

@maxlarson 
"We have a good friend who recently got into wine. In fact, so new, he honestly still thinks all red wine tastes the same regardless of the varietal, producer, terroir, year, climate, winemaker, etc... "

I used to run winetastings. I used to have an extensive cellar of quality Bordeaux and Burgundy and have tasted some of the greatest wines, including DRCs back to'49.
Unfortunately I had a severe dose of Covid last year and lost my sense of smell.,
now all wine does largely taste the same to me.

Unfortunately I had a severe dose of Covid last year and lost my sense of smell.,
now all wine does largely taste the same to me.

Sorry to hear that @laoman , that sucks. They called it covid 19 and 6 years later it is still around. We know someone who got long covid and she was unable to work, luckily she had good benefits from the employer and the family was not destitute. 

Hopefully for audiophiles there isn't a new virus in the future which attacks people's sense of hearing the same way covid can attack sense of taste and smell. And hopefully those senses become restored for you.