How do you know?
Selling dispute. Please comment.
I recently sold a pair of mono amps and checked the box that indicated the original manual was included. I never use the manual for something like this and just assumed the manual was in the box as there were some various papers from the manufacturer in the boxes.
The buyer got the amps safely and they are in perfect condition as described. I shipped the same day the item sold. Unfortunately the manuals were not in the boxes the amps came in. These were the original boxes, but the manuals are not there according to the buyer.
I sent him the link to download the pdf of the manual. He is not happy with that. I offered to print a color double sided copy (on good stock) at Kinkos for $20 (at my expense) and ship that to him. He says that the original manual was promised and that I have to deliver that to him. And that he dervers two of them since the amps came in two separate boxes. He is threating to kill the deal and dispute with audiogon and paypal.
I admit that I'm in the wrong for mis-stating that the manuals were included. I will attempt to order the manuals from the manufacturer on Monday, but I don't know that the manufacturer will provide them even if I pay for them.
I'd appreciate comments regarding this problem. Thank you.
The buyer got the amps safely and they are in perfect condition as described. I shipped the same day the item sold. Unfortunately the manuals were not in the boxes the amps came in. These were the original boxes, but the manuals are not there according to the buyer.
I sent him the link to download the pdf of the manual. He is not happy with that. I offered to print a color double sided copy (on good stock) at Kinkos for $20 (at my expense) and ship that to him. He says that the original manual was promised and that I have to deliver that to him. And that he dervers two of them since the amps came in two separate boxes. He is threating to kill the deal and dispute with audiogon and paypal.
I admit that I'm in the wrong for mis-stating that the manuals were included. I will attempt to order the manuals from the manufacturer on Monday, but I don't know that the manufacturer will provide them even if I pay for them.
I'd appreciate comments regarding this problem. Thank you.
125 responses Add your response
In re: rating something one number but saying it is another ("I'm rating it a 2 but really it is a 10"). I have no problem with that. As someone mentioned above, it provides leeway in people's different interpretations. I may feel something is a 9 but someone else may think It is a 10, but someone else yet may see it and rate it a 7. That's a big swing in ratings and, consequently, a big potential swing in value. To deal with this I think a better solution is a picture, giving your own interpretation. OTOH, I understand why some people find this annoying. |
"Have you tried or suggested that the two of you speak on the phone? I think email can be pretty brutal sometimes. Taking time to talk it through might help bring this back to a more even keel level. Take the emotion out of it. Discuss it 1:1 and try to come up w/ a fair resolution. Good luck." What is this "phone" thing of which you speak? Is it some sort of divining instrument? Does it require fire? A sacrifice? Perhaps it is an oracle? As for me, I'll stick to the only communication system ever known to most human beings: Internet emails. All this other stuff sounds too much like voodoo. Wink, wink--nudge, nudge |
I'm glad everything worked out for the both of you. I wouldn't leave feedback either. I DO think that original boxes manuals and accessories are important though. I have all items for each unit in my system. It's nice to have a complete portfolio when possible. Thanks for the update and best of luck. |
Wow, I'm shocked regarding the outcome. I was in the camp that he just had buyer's remorse. In any case I'm happy for you. I will be thinking very carefully about checking that 'original manual' box from now on as I usually take it to mean 'do I have whatever original paperwork there was' and not specifically a 'manual'. |
Hi guys. Sorry for the delay. Just haven't checked back in awhile. Yes, the buyer never said a word about the manuals I sent. But the day he got them (I sent them sig required), positive feedback appeared. And very positive feedback. Apprarently he was happy with those manuals. It was a relief. I did not return the positive feedback. That would feel disingenuous. I prefer to abstain on feedback this time. While he was within his rights, the way he went about things created unnecessary stress. Thanks again to everyone that responded to this thread. The opposing views gave me perspective and the supporting views were comforting. : ) |
Jax has positive feedback dated 9/3 on an amplifier, so hopefully it all worked out???Acman3, Yes it would appear so.... Jaxwired's Feedback Extremely fast shipping: bought the monoblocks Wednesday morning, Tom took them to the shippers at noontime, and I received them on Saturday. Well boxed and exactly as described - mint. Thanks, Tom. Jaxwired Must be out of town as I notice he has not left feedback for the buyer as yet. . |
Yeah, I'd like to hear an update as well. And a couple of more things, even tho I commented before: I'm still 99.999% on the side of the seller, & think the buyer is a total d'bag. But after selling maybe a thousand items on fee-bay, & a few dozen on A'gon, I've become even more incredibly anal about checking the item over many times, measuring, taking pics of even the box & manual if it's camera or audio gear, etc. And a final check before I ship, b/c I live in fear of A-hole buyers like this one. Doing the "final check" of the item, a very few times (over many years), I've found a tiny mistake, & e-mailed the buyer before shipping. If you can nip a mistake, no matter how small, "in the bud" so much the better. But I still suspect this buyer is a very unhappy person, who has a pattern of this type of bullying, unreasonable behavior..... |
The buyer simply meant to include the manual. It was a logical implication, of sorts, on his part. His point of reference was the papers in the envelopes included in the boxes. The reference of that's all that was included from the manufacturer should be enough, in hindsight, to quell the matter. Going the lengths to make better 'copies' of a manual that may had never come with the amps is going beyond what would be considered accommodating, This type of behavior, on the buyers part, can be observed in life. One time I had to have a broken windshield replaced on my car. I wanted an original to be used as it has green tinting in it to reduce heat but my adjuster refused. I pointed out that it is clearly stated in the car's description, which could be referenced online, but he demanded I produce the original dealers invoice that appears on the window, stating the equipment, features, and extras and that legally, he was under no obligation to use original factory parts unless I had that stupid window sticker. It took three replacement windows before I got one that I could see out of, undistorted. The adjuster would have saved money had he just went out and got a proper window. It works both ways and serves no one when being stubborn beyond what is reasonable. All the best, Nonoise |
Further and further down the rabbit hole we go. It gets strange down here. It's here that we find... ∀F(Fx ↔ Fy) → x=y F = discernable characteristics x = original manual y = replacement manual If the seller provides a replacement manual whose discernable characteristics are equivalent to those of the original manual, then he has, quite literally, provided an *identical* manual. This is the Principle of the Identity of Indiscernibles, first described by W.G. Leibniz, German philosopher and mathematician who, among other things, co-invented calculus. What makes one manual identical to another is not that it has the same trajectory through space and time. It's that it contains the same INFORMATION. It is for this reason that we can say that, when I watch a TV program in Los Angeles, and you watch it in Helena Montana, we have seen the same program, even though I saw it several seconds before you did, while in a different location, and as a result of a different radio wave trajectory. What makes it the "same" program is the INFORMATION it contains. Same information. Same program. What goes for TV programs goes for movies, books, photographs, albums, manuals, or any other entity whose discernible characteristics are overwhelmingly defined by the INFORMATION they contain. Otherwise, we would find ourselves in a world where you say "We're reading the same book," and I say, "That's impossible. It hasn't left my bedstand for weeks!" Or, as Alice said... "I wonder if I've been changed in the night? Let me think: was I the same when I got up this morning? I almost think I can remember feeling a little different. But if I'm not the same, the next question is 'Who in the world am I?' Ah, that's the great puzzle!"This thread has sounded a little like Wonderland. IMO, of course. Bryon |
Shoff, you make some good points, but I would add that if this were Wyoming or Montana (or a lot of other places), the seller would have worked this out with the buyer and been done with it without subjecting the whole pitiful experience to the court of public opinion. IMO, the real problem is that both buyer and seller would rather throw nuts at each other than own up and move on. Jaxwired's original talk about various papers from the manufacturer in the boxesand especially his more recent post So when I checked the "manual included" box I really meant was that the buyer would get whatever paper docs were originally in the box. Not so much that they would specifically be a manual.is absolute BS, and simply a justification to himself (and to us) that he didn't "actually" screw up by not verifying the original manual was in the box before listing the ad or shipping the amps. I get it, we all screw up sometimes, but quit whining about it and resolve it. A review of the Audiogon "Seller's Checklist" shows "Do you have the owner's manual?" being one of the questions to answer. In this case the seller did not, but checked that he did. Regardless that 99 out of 100 of us would have happily accepted the pdf manual, and regardless that the buyer comes off as an ass-wipe from his e-mails, the fact remains that the seller did not complete his commitment. Therefore, this boils down to either the buyer accepting the proposed solution (pdf manual), or the seller accepting the return of the amps. BTW, when you post an ad, the seller's checkbox reads "Owner's Manual Included" but the actual ad lists the manual under "Original Accessories." The absence of the word "original" in the ad posting checkbox and the inclusion of "original" in the listing is a discrepancy that Audiogon should fix, especially after this thread. |
Rrog: I must take exception to the points you make in your post. First, you state that "... the first thing that may enter the buyer's mind is, what else is the seller lying about." In order for a lie to occur there must be a misrepresentation of the facts AND a purposeful attempt to deceive. Although the seller did misrepresent the facts, I truly do not believe he was trying to be deceptive. I do not for one minute think that when he checked that Audiogon box he thought to himself, "I'm really going to screw this guy!". Also, absent a severe psychological condition, I don't belive a buyer would assume that a fraud had been perpetrated based soley on a missing manual! You, however, have no problem in suggesting that is exactly what the buyer may have thought. Secondly, you state that "The real problem here is Jax misrepresented what he was selling." Again, I beg to differ. Although the seller's action was clearly the ORIGIN of the problem, the "real problem" (to use your words) is the buyers unreasonable response to the sellers well intentioned, bend-over-backwards attempts to rectify the situation. While the seller is obviously trying to accomodate, the words from the buyer's emails convey the message he will have to be dragged to a compromise kicking and screaming. That, my friend, is THE REAL PROBLEM! Finally, if this dispute was heard in a court of law I would find immediately for the buyer. I would then award him $1.00 in damages and tell him to consider himself lucky that the law does not allow a lesser award. On the otherhand, if this case was tried in the court of public opinion the seller wins hands down. In fact, if that court was convened in Wyoming or Montana the official transcript reads, "The buyer acted like a horses a$$, case dismissed!". |
"Mint.... Original manual.... Seller should have checked to make sure." I never said anything about the manual in the description. When you fill out the classified ad form on audiogon there is a checkbox for "manual included". I checked that box. You see, there were in fact various documents in the boxes that were from the manufacturer. They were inside large white envelopes. I peeked inside the envelopes saw some docs in there and said to myself "Ahh, those much be the docs that come with the amp". So when I checked the "manual included" box I really meant was that the buyer would get whatever paper docs were originally in the box. Not so much that they would specifically be a manual. After speaking with the manufacturer, I really think the buyer DID in fact get whatever is originally included in the box. They don't put manuals in the box, but there is some paperwork. |
Check out my feedback on here and ebay. It isn't perfect for no reason. 5.0 on my seller dashboard also. I know how to treat buyers, but never let them walk all over me. Lots of buyers want everything and haven't got the means, so they will use any excuse to get their money back or something for free. I as a buyer do want original manuals if it's possible and original boxes because it does help to get items sold, especially Linn products. As far as me being a fair seller, my attitude is if you don't have the means butt out. |
Mint.... Original manual.... Seller should have checked to make sure. These are seemingly important to this buyer, and might have been the swaying factor in his purchase. The seller is fully responsible for the satisfaction of the transaction. Even if it's something out of his hands like shipping damage. So, no matter how unreasonable we think the buyer is, the item was misrepresented. |
Deep shit? ALL of us? Really? I sell things on here and ebay to get them out of my way. I don't give them away because I can afford to keep them if they don't sell. I treat buyers right but I would never be in deep shit without them. If fact most buyers are usually in deep shit financially due to over spending. Not all of us are in the same boat. |
You guys are completely missing the point. It was discovered after the fact the manual is nothing special. However, the ad stated the amps included the original manufacturer's manual. Except when the amps arrived there was no manual. The buyer does not know Jax from Adam and the first thing that may enter the buyer's mind is, what else is the seller lying about. Jax messed up. The ad should have stated the type of owner's manaul that was included in the ad so everybody knows what to expect up front. The majority of Jax's supporters are people who sell for more than a hobby and only put yourselves in the seller's shoes. Keep in mind, without buyers we would all be in deep shit. |
What kind of amps are these that need a manual? Doesn't the buyer know you just plug them in and turn them on? Dude really? Do you need a manual that shows the wire diection as well? Just kidding! The buyer could be selling to someone else as new and just opened the box to check contents. Yes, he really needs the ORIGINAL manuals to those very confusing mono's. WAIT, are these going to be a collectors item some day? Maybe he knows something the seller deosn't. If the seller did offer the ORIGINAL manual then he needs to find out if one actually came with the amps to begin with and if he can get another factory supplied manual. If not then the buyer does have an arguement even if he is being an a$$. |
"Jax, please don't use the common "I rated it a 8 but it's really an 9." That one drives me crazy." I have never done that one myself, but I do I understand where the seller is coming from. Everyone has a different interpretation of what 9 means. I feel confident that for every item listed as a 9, there's a super picky buyer out there that would strongly disagree. I tend to use 8 unless the product was very recently brand new. |
IMO the buyer is acting petty since the original manual is nothing special, indicated by the manufacturer response. He should be supplied a manual which you have complied with. Here's a sample of the manuals from some of my gear: VAC, manual is just photo copies stapeled in the corner Origin Live, manual is just photo copies stapeled in the corner Manley, manual is decent quality paper bound to a generic plastic spiral binder ESP, manual is just photo copies stapeled in the corner W4S, manual is decent quality paper bound in a generic plastic binder None of my manuals are anything to get excited about. The money went into the product. |
agree 100% with grannyring. that this idiocy would so escalate demonstrates how sick, entitled and litigious our society has become. so maybe jaxwired screwed up and maybe the OCD buyer sincerely longs for the original manual. step on--there's famine, pestilence and global warming to worry about. not every little slight deserves redress. |
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Hopefully the buyer hasn't been reading this thread. It may set a mental bias just out of stubborn pride. In retrospect you should have told him that you forgot to include the manual, and sent the kinkos PDF copy as the original. He probably never would have known the difference. When you look at some of the manuals that come with some equipment, you wonder if they don't get them at kinkos as well. Audio Research has a nice card stock cover but would real easy to replicate for about 10 bucks. Good Luck and hopefully if the buyer has read the thread that he has a forgiving nature. I encourage him/her to re-read that the OP never really bashed him. The rest of us did, but that is our nature:) it's a audiophile cyber-flash mob! |
I would side with buyer if original manuals would have been printed material. I tend to pay more for used gear if original manuals are included because I assume ower(s) took better care of the equipment; original manuals for vintage gear can fetch relatively high prices on eBay - I paid $50 plus shipping for an original manual for a vintage high end tube unit. This is even more important for original boxes and packing for the same reason, AND also because many manufacturers require gear to be shipped in original packaging for when shipping for warranty and other repairs. I paid over $60 for Audio Research box and packing when I had to send in a used unit for repairs. The toy analogy does NOT hold. The seller should have CHECKED what was in the envelopes when listing - seller was hasty constructing the listing. None of us would accept high quality copies of missing manuals when we purchase new gear, therefore copies are not the same. Of course the seller invested time to correct his MISTAKE and lucked out that original paperwork was not "printed" material. Of course the copies would have the same information but is that the only purpose? If buyer decides to sell the gear to me in the future, he will get more for it. In summary, to a buyer/collector, original manuals can be important. Copies are not really valuable these days given the internet; anyone can have a high quality copy made for $10 to $20. I DO NOT THINK IT IS FAIR FOR THE SELLER TO DETERMINE WHAT IS UNIMPORTANT TO THE BUYER. I was not the buyer in this case, the two Audiogon purchases I made were great! If Audiogon FIXES there site I may make further purchases (got that in!). |
Rrog- I started drinking right after Jax posted that there never were "original" owners manuals provided w the amps. BTW, I've read and re-read the emails btwn buyer and seller and do not see anyplace where buyer says he has been burned before. Maybe I missed something, but I've seen nothing in the 80 posts to this thread that makes me even begin to reconsider my opinion that buyer is a 100%, dyed-in-the-wool A-hole. YMMV. |
This thread blows my mind. Is there any hope for mankind? No kidding, is this actually being debated! All of this about a manual and wether it is a copy, color, has a coffee stain, torn corner on one page and perhaps folded in the middle..... Nothing here to debate or think too deeply about. It seems to me some are thinking way too much on a matter that does not require or deserve this kind grey matter exercise. Send a nice copy as the buyer is out of line and is outside the boundaries of any sense of reasonableness. It is interesting and reminds me of how difficult, angry and unreasonable some folks can be. Sorry you have had to deal with this childish behavior. I feel for you. Very stressful and strange. |
