Selling dispute. Please comment.

"My brother is a toy collector and he will often buy an item just because the original box is in better condition than the boxes of two of the exact same item that he already owns."

I don't believe that is a fair analogy. This is not a vintage piece. Collectability is not a factor here at all. Professionally printed versions of the pdf would be indistinquisable from the original to any future buyer. There is no intrinsic value in the paper used by the manufacturer to print the original copy of the manual.

As Elizabeth pointed out earlier in this thread, often manufacturers include very poor quality manuals. I've often received normal copier paper stabled in the corner as the manual.

I contacted the seller that sold the to me on audiogon. He was the original owner. He claims the boxes never contained manuals. Maybe the manufacturer just directs people to the pdf downloads.

"One last point, if people are going to get worked up about misrepresentations in ads, then a far more serious problem is the 1 thru 10 grading system describing the equipment's condition. Are there really that many pieces for sale that qualify as 9s?"

On that point, I see clearly wrong ads all the time. In fact, the guy that sold me these exact amps, his ad said they came with "Remote". He checked the "Remote Included" box on his ad when he listed it. Now, of course power amps don't have remotes. However, should I make him give me my money back because he did not ship the remotes?

People make mistakes all the time in these ads. I've saw an ad yesterday where the expensive item was listed for $0. Should I demand that be honored?

A professionally printed version of the pdf, printed in color on thick glossly paper, printed in magazine format and center stapled like a magazine will be equal to or most likely far superior to the cheap black and white copy that was probably the original manual (which, by the way would probably have been folded and wrinkled too). And it surely would satisfy the future buyer should this guy ever sell. Which means there would be zero financial loss over the missing manuals. So how has he been damaged under those circumstances? It would be different if this was a collectible manual and the "original" version was somehow coveted by collectors and thereby added value. But that is not the case. Nobody collects "original" high end amp manuals. A quality copy has no less value than the original.

I don't see how a reasonable person would conclude that was not good enough. We are not talking about the amps OR any of the accessories which were all shipped as promised and were described correctly.

Thank you to everyone that has commented. I appreciate all the different viewpoints.

My first response to the buyer:
"Hi Buyer,

I'm happy to hear that the amps arrived safely. I sent everything I had. I guess I didn't have the manual. I apologize. I figured it was in one of those white envelopes. You can download the full manual and print out a copy if you need to. Here is the link: @^^#%#%^&@

Again, I'm sorry it was missing from the box."

His response:

"No, Seller. You had to have known there was no manual, but yet you sold it as mint with a manual. Either get me an original manual or you can have the amps back."

My response:

"Buyer,

I will contact the manufacturer on Monday to order the manual from them. I will attempt to have them ship directly to your address.

OR, I can go to kinkos with the downloaded pdf and print out a 2 sided color copy of the manual (on good paper stock) center stapled in magazine format and ship it out today. This would be a $20 expense, but I am willing to do that to get you the manual today. Let me know."

His Response:

"Ok, Seller, you will get me an original manual to complete the sale. (Please send all messages through Audiogon). I want to deal only with people who do exactly what they say they will do, nothing more and certainly nothing less. I bought an original manual, so I want it. If you contact the manufacturer to get it, please have it sent directly to me. If I don't hear from you by Tuesday, 28 August 2012, on when I will receive the Owner's Reference manual then I will notify Audiogon and PayPal."

Ok, people, you'll love this. Here is the response from the manufacturer. They emailed me this morning.

Here's what I asked them:

"Hello,

I would like to order the original manual for the XXXX amplifier. I do not want a pdf or to download the pdf of the manual. I want the original manual that comes in the box. Can I order one? "

Here is there response:

"We include only a “quick start guide” (4 double sided pages) with most new XXXX products these days. As such we no longer stock paper copies of complete owner’s manuals. Sorry!"

He included the manual in pdf form in his response. The manual is 16 pages long. They do not include manuals with their new products! So there never were any manuals. Now I have to produce mnauals that never even existed to complete the sale. Great....

I've printed out the pdf at Kinkos. I used their best glossy stock and had it center stapled in magazine format and in COLOR! They look fantastic, like they were professionally published. I have now put them in a hard side priority mail box so they don't get damanged. I will send them out today. That's all I can do.

Jea,

That's exactly what I did. Waiting for the buyers response now. Hopefully you are right. Will update this thread when I know more.

My next ad will say:

"No original paperwork of any kind included"

Also

"Condition of item cosmetically flawed. DO NOT purchase if you want a like new item. See pictures for condition."

I feel confident this will have zero impact on my ability to sell. Maybe it will keep the nut jobs away.

"Jax, please don't use the common "I rated it a 8 but it's really an 9." That one drives me crazy."

I have never done that one myself, but I do I understand where the seller is coming from. Everyone has a different interpretation of what 9 means. I feel confident that for every item listed as a 9, there's a super picky buyer out there that would strongly disagree. I tend to use 8 unless the product was very recently brand new.

"Mint.... Original manual....
Seller should have checked to make sure."

I never said anything about the manual in the description. When you fill out the classified ad form on audiogon there is a checkbox for "manual included". I checked that box. You see, there were in fact various documents in the boxes that were from the manufacturer. They were inside large white envelopes. I peeked inside the envelopes saw some docs in there and said to myself "Ahh, those much be the docs that come with the amp". So when I checked the "manual included" box I really meant was that the buyer would get whatever paper docs were originally in the box. Not so much that they would specifically be a manual. After speaking with the manufacturer, I really think the buyer DID in fact get whatever is originally included in the box. They don't put manuals in the box, but there is some paperwork.

Hi guys. Sorry for the delay. Just haven't checked back in awhile. Yes, the buyer never said a word about the manuals I sent. But the day he got them (I sent them sig required), positive feedback appeared. And very positive feedback. Apprarently he was happy with those manuals. It was a relief. I did not return the positive feedback. That would feel disingenuous. I prefer to abstain on feedback this time. While he was within his rights, the way he went about things created unnecessary stress.

Thanks again to everyone that responded to this thread. The opposing views gave me perspective and the supporting views were comforting. : )