Seeking help finding the weak link(s) in my system and offering suggestions please.

Hi,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your system set-up.

As for now, I am quite content with my system after proper st-up of the speakers and dabbling a bit with my room acoustics, this made a transformation to my system I did not think possible. At some point, maybe, I may more closely examine my system components with respect to synergy. DSP is something on my radar as well as improving my speaker cables.

Were it not for this forum, I would have missed out on a significant improvement in my systems capability and it didn't cost me a dime!

Thanks to everyone who contributed! Please enjoy your Holiday and all that goes with it.

Peace...

How do you assess your output and how the room reacts? A UMike and REW or TrueRTA, both audio analysis programs, will give you concrete data on what is causing problems or verify that your latest tweak or gear addition is a step in the right direction.
Personally I think you have way to many things in your audio stream and I am a believer in the least required to get to where you want to be the better.
You can replace a lot of that stuff with a Xilica DSP and once you learn to use it can adjust or balance anything and it can take a signal right from a PC and make it right for superior listening. I do that and the secret to making this work is to download the high def software upgrade available on every sound card I know of and install it. The Xilica allows for time alignment if you wish. Gain adjustment and yes those fancy amps are not really totally balanced channel to channel. You run curves on your speakers and see where there are problems and you can set PEQ’s on the Xilica to correct. If your speakers have problems with certain genres of music or specific instruments and various frequencies you can isolate this with the UMike and software and have up to 30 presets stored in the Xilica. A push of a couple of buttons will allow you to play your problems child the way you want.
This presumes you set your Xilica up with the PC program that comes with it and do your tweaks on your PC/monitor. Doing these on the Xilica itself can be done but is very tedious.
I watch many people find something they don’t like on their system and then buy more and more to try and fix it never being happy. How in the world do you isolate exactly what is the largest offender when you now have so many variables?
I do not run a stock store bought system. I have a custom built bass single fold horn set for 500hz to 27hz (yes it will do that), a Klipsch K402 for 500hz to18khz, run it all off an upgraded sound card driver Dell PC which feeds into my Xilica and then from there into two Crown xli800’s where one feeds left channel and the other the right channel and yes this two way system has one amp channel for each driver. I can make my gear do what I want with few limitations whereas buying puzzle pieces and sticking them all together will never give you the same level of control or fidelity. The very best sound requires you to go beyond plug and play.
  Not placing a value on my time to learn to do all this and just looking at dollars spent and shopping for best deals, getting my hands dirty building have less than $6500 spent. Getting to the point where I realized this was possible cost a whole lot more. $$$$$$$$$$ Money spent on systems is a real poor indicator of end results in my experience.

You're most welcome.That's fantastic... good to hear. Yes... it's not that fun to do... but after a person goes through the process, and can understand and hear proper placement... you can listen to any system and tell if the speakers are set up properly. It's pretty easy to tell.... as the sound will be smeared, undefined, and not very exciting.I find that with proper placement, a person can really hear and define the difference with any changes in the system... such as gear, cables, stands, room treatment, or tweeks.After making an improvement... the best part is listening to all your favorite music again... and hear how much better it sounds!Happy listening.

Hello andera,

I followed your instructions regarding speaker placement. I felt my room acoustics to be decent but far from what my local dealer implemented, which I am convinced would make a significant improvement, however not practical for me.

With respect to speaker placement, it was a bit frustrating and took me hours to accomplish, however the results were worth it! The appearance of my system in the room looks a little odd now to the casual observer, but when you sit in my designated chair the speakers now vanish with a much deeper and wider sound stage. I was surprised how much an improvement was made through this effort, it sounds like I made a major upgrade to something?? Very happy now! At some point in the future my next tweak will be speaker cables, there are some great ones out there within my budget.

Thanks again for all of the help!

Dear andera and others,

At this point I am really confused, not sure what direction to take. I appreciate all of the good suggestions people have posted here. There are a number of suggestions that are consistent such as speaker cables, room treatment/optimization, DSP, etc.. Still trying to distill all of the feedback. Considering my budget, (1K) I'm going to dig into room optimization and speaker set-up, a common theme here that will cost me only time and effort. After that, not sure, maybe speaker cables and/or DSP. I'm going to try to find as many resources as I can regarding getting the most out of your system through proper set-up.

A big thank you to everybody!

Buy Jim Smiths' book and DVD's "Get Better Sound". Around $45 for both.

GRM, just add a second subwoofer and bring the crossover point up to about 100 Hz. Make sure you have a high pass filter on you main speakers. I am not sure if the sunfires provide this but it is critical for the best performance. This will improve your bass and give you another 6 dB 
or so of head room. The high pass filter will also lower the distortion levels in your main speakers. 

Mike

Hey GRM... lots of great suggestions here. I'm curious if you have a clear direction to pursue. Curious to know what changes you make... the results... and if the results are enough that you are content.My System sounded incredible... but I could always sense something was not quite right. It took better power cords $1,000 each replacing $400 cords, and interconnects. After that it was speaker position, room tuning, and tweaks. I figure that if a person does everything possible to make the system sound good but you are not happy... THEN start swapping out components.

"Two HFT Speaker Kits and one set of HFT " Lmao! I had to look up what this was. What a joke, That could not possibly help in any way but drain your wallet..A power cable makes more since…..Folks believe in anything….Santa is coming soon...

Well, I’ll be the contrarian opinion in the discussion; cables and tweaks won’t get you from where you are to where you want to be. In 90% of the cases, what you are hearing is 90% the speakers/room combination. Assuming this to be true, and you really liked what the B&W speakers had to offer sonically, Maybe you should inquire into the smaller D series 805 and see if that yields some of the improvement you are looking for. Also, this is a small enough unit to perhaps try in your own space prior to financially committing to them as speaker choices can be highly personal based upon your sound preferences. Tweaks and cables are what you play around with to fine tune a system you are already mostly settled in with, not to effect gross systemic improvements. There’s a reason why there are so many cables for sale here from disappointed buyers who thought they could extract an order of magnitude improvement from their systems with a cable purchase. 

Dear @grm : I agree, you need better cables and the 8TC are excellent ones. I had and have first hand experiences with almost all the KK cables lines ( today I'm using its all silver ones along Analysis Plus silver too. ). You can't go rwon with those 8TC.

I know personally Ray Kimber and your PK10 power cable came from an " experiment " I did it several years ago, things were that I figured : what if I use the 8TC as a power cord? and I did it using  Wattgate 24K Gold Plated High End Connectors and its quality performance was nothing but first rate/great improvement. 
After my tests in my system I shared my  discovery with Ray and he started to put in the market his power cords based/founded in my findings.

Anyway, go for it. In the other side: which kind of room treatment do you have in your room if any?

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Al,
I agree with you, as my current single run of cable to each speaker is via Blue-Jeans cable, which happens to have a fourth of the capacitance of the Kimber cable. In fact, the Blue-Jeans cable looks very good in terms of specification and I thought sounds just fine, no snake oil?? However, many contributors on this thread think my speaker cables to be an area of opportunity having in one case personal experience with my cable and finding it to be lacking. I somehow doubt AQ will provide me with a spec sheet on a particular cable, I think they hold their cards close to their chest. The question, a little modified, is who makes a great sounding cable that is not afraid to publish their specs and truly provide an outstanding sounding cable for 1K or a lot less. I am one to not equate SQ to $ spent, I think that correlation to be loose and think there to be over-performers out there, I just do not know who they are. 

The high gain (48 db) and wide bandwidth (150 kHz) of your amp raises a bit of concern in my mind about how well the amp would react in terms of sonics to the highish capacitance of the 8TC (about 1600 pf for the 15 foot length you require, and 3200 pf if you biwire which it appears you are now doing with the Blue Jeans cable). Presumably the cable’s high capacitance is a consequence of low inductance taking priority in its design, but the 8TC’s inductance is lower than is necessary for your application given the impedance characteristics of the SF speakers.

On the other hand, Audioquest does not provide technical specs for the Rocket 44. I would contact them and ask them to tell you what its inductance and capacitance per unit length are. If they can’t or won’t tell you I would look elsewhere.

While cable specs are of course not generally useful in predicting how a cable will sound, IMO they can often be useful in identifying and ruling out candidates that have a low probability of being good matches for a particular application.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

Hello to all,
I printed this thread and shared it with my local dealer who did not dismiss any of the suggestions. He felt my system was lacking symmetry, meaning  my next step would be a good set of speaker cables. I have looked at a couple in my price range, Audioquest Rocket 44's and Kimber 8TC. My system is already populated with Kimber IC's and I like them. My question now is, do I go with Kimber or Audioquest? I have only one shot to get this right as custom 15' cables usually can't be returned, so, which cable would you choose? Maybe something completely different?

PS. To achieve that level of SQ that moved me, everything included, would cost me about 50K! Hah, I don't think so... 

Thanks again everybody! 

I just moved and had to reset everything up, it sounded good but something was lacking. After about a week I remembered I forgot to install the Furutech NCF outlet. I did not realize how much of an impact a snake oil outlet could make. That outlet is not a subtle change in audio performance it made a big difference for me. I have a second system I experimented with film caps in crossover and Preamp. I was scared to do in main system as I would screw something up. That was the best bang for buck I have ever seen in audio since I got into this hobby. I used Claritycaps, Jantzen Alumen Z's and Miflex in crossover and Jupiter copper foil in Preamp well under $1000. I think better impact than buying a new component.

grm,

Way different direction than all others.  I’ve chased AC conditioners for years, the last one a Furman Elite 15 with some effect.  Then, a Decware ZLC conditioner which was transformational in all aspects.

Crazy improvement at all levels.  My system:  UnitiServe, Mystique 3 DAC, Manley 300B pre driving ATC 40 active floor standers.  All equipment on Quadraspire Reference X stand.  😁

I'll vote with eric on his advice, although the DSP would perhaps assist in setting up the traps....but that's just MHO.

That's kind of proven. ;) While the average consumer trap is wide-band and therefore has a hard time handling very deep nulls and peaks, they drain enough resonant energy out of the room to make the DSP much more effective.  The amount of improvement you can achieve with nulls for instance is pretty remarkable.  Something you can't do with DSP alone.

BTW, really recommend GIK's' soffit traps. Very effective, pretty and relatively inexpensive. I've heard a lot of ASC treated rooms and to my ears, turned the room into 1 note performers.

I'll vote with eric on his advice, although the DSP would perhaps assist in setting up the traps....but that's just MHO.

You ought to see a marked improvement, although it initially might 'hear' differently that you may be accustomed to.  Be patient, it's worth it.

I've been 'doing' active room eq for over 2 decades, albeit without 'plug 'n play' equipment and certainly without 'pedigree' components.  But it's how I've managed to wring out of them the best they're capable of. *S*

You ought to be able to do very well in that respect.. ;)

Personally, I've always regarded 'us' as the 'weak link', but that's again MHO. *L*  Good luck!

PS - You can in fact use DSP very effectively for a full, fast bass. These can be MAJOR changes, on the order of 20 dB, BUT ....

Room modes are more effectively handled in partnership with bass traps that bleed the energy out of the room, and DSP doesn't do a very good job of handling hash that is extremely listener location dependent.

Point is, DSP and room tuning work in very complementary and effective ways, achieving results not possible with just one or the other.

The best way to use DSP tuning is AFTER you've spent on room acoustics.

So, I'd suggest you up your budget, maybe to $1,500, and split it among a digital-only miniDSP and the room with GIK Acoustics.

Best,
E

The Cable Company (thecableco.com) has a cable lending library, but generally only has speaker cable lengths of 8-10ft. 

In my experience, DSP room correction is useful for tweaking speaker response to compensate for minor room issues, but only after doing everything possible to adjust the room acoustics with speaker and listener positioning and acoustic treatments. 

You didn't mention your room layout or what treatments you've already installed, but the room if probably the most important component in your system. Getting the room right can make a huge impact on the overall sound quality. 

Some of the companies that specialize in room treatments will provide free consulting to help you figure out what will have the most bang for the buck. Take a look at GIK Acoustics.

Hello,
Thank you for the link to DSP solutions almarg9. One of their products, for $900 might fit the bill. I am leaning in this direction because I have learned that DRC can do some amazing things with respect to audio reproduction, such as "will make your speakers disappear". Plus, if it does not meet my expectations I can recoup my $ and return the processor. 

I appreciate everyone's contribution, and I agree speaker cables may be one of the weak links in my system, if only there was a no risk solution to trying custom 15' lengths of different cables. I thought I remember reading in these forums that there was a company that could provide this service??

No one is mentioning the room and speaker setup in the room?

The basic gear without fancy outlets, cables in a proper room  setup probably would have more impact.

I was thinking also the speaker cable. In the used market you should be able to find a $2k set for $1k, or $1,500 set for $800... as examples. I am very happy with my Harmonic Technology 6N single crystal copper, PRO-9 speaker cables. Purchased used... saved big $$.
I would leave enough room in the budget for an inexpensive tweak like the Synergistic fuse. I used the blue fuse in my CDP outboard power supply and couldn't believe the results for under $200. Another even less expensive increase for me was to pull the lid from my CDP... and add dampening material... very easy and only around $25. The results were similar to the fuse upgrade. Good luck, and enjoy the journey : )

I’m very interested in learning more about DSP Room Correction. Does anyone have experience with this and where do you start?

A good way to start may be with the following page at MiniDSP.com, and then proceeding to look into the specific products referred to near the bottom of that page:

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-room-correction/drc-basics

I have no experience with and no particular knowledge of MiniDSP products, but I’ve seen them mentioned favorably here by knowledgeable members. Personally I use a DEQX HDP-5 in my system, which performs room correction as well as numerous other functions, but that and other DEQX products would not be consistent with your stated budget as well as being complex products requiring substantial learning curves.

Best regards,
-- Al

It seems that you are doing a double-run of the Blue Jean 10awg.  If you wanted to do something like that with AQ, you could get Rocket 33 no frills for $279:

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQRO33NF&opt=579|584|592|596

Then use the Rocket 44 for low-end binding posts and Rocket 33 for upper binding posts.  This brings you to $794.

Then buy 12 Furutech rhodium FP-201 R spades for $207.  You can combine the 33/44 together on the amp side spades and terminate each one separately on the speaker end so that you have a true bi-wire configuration.  This puts you just over the $1k mark (barely).

A 15 foot pair of Rocket 44 Premium No Frills at audio advisor is $515.  The premium version uses better Pangea spades/bananas than the regular no frills:

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQPGRO44N&opt=3926|3933|3940|3944

Or you could move up to Rocket 88 no frills for $1049.  It uses better copper and would have better resolution, but doesn't have the Pangea banana/spades:

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQRO88NF&opt=4736|4745|4749|4752

I would NOT bi-wire these because it splits apart the conductors and you end up with smaller amount of overall bass/mid conductor.  Just get a normal pair and connect it to the upper binding posts on the Electa.  Then use a really good jumper to connect upper/lower binding posts.

However, if you wanted much better resolution, I would get the rocket 44/88 and chop the ends and re-terminate with Furutech Rhodium FP-201 R spades available for $17 each from Sonic Craft or Parts Connexion.   The gold-plated terminations are nice but warmer in sound and don't have as much high frequency resolution.  You could start out with the gold and then chop/upgrade to rhodium later if you felt you needed more resolution.  The rhodium will also have tighter deep bass as well.

Thanks auxinput1 for the candid feedback. I need (for my budget) to make the Krell and Sonus Faber's to work. I really like the Krell's ability to maintain a vise-grip lock on my speakers and go to near live volume levels without breaking a sweat - very powerful. The Sonus Fabers are not only beautiful pieces of craftsmanship but I also feel they match well with the Krell. Lastly, I agree the Blue-Jeans cables may be a limiting factor, on paper and as measured, they seem good, but measurements do not necessarily equate to good sound. The problem I am having is for my set-up I require two 15' runs of cable, and the top shelf hooch for cables of this length are stratospheric in terms of cost unless someone knows of a sub 1K cable that would fit the bill. 

Thank you! 

Two components I see that are reducing the overall resolution:

Krell Vanguard Integrated.  This is an excellent integrated, but the newer Krell amplifiers are very smooth and really smooth over the high frequencies.

Blue-Jeans 10AWG White.  This is basically the Beldon 5T00UP cable.  It's low grade copper.  I have actually had this in my system and it sounded very low res and did not have the high frequency resolution and transparency.  Kind of like lo-fidelity product.  A basic 12 awg stranded Monster cable did SIGNIFICANTLY better.

These two combined with the Sonus Faber, which are absolutely excellent sounding, but do not have as much high frequency extension and resolution as other speakers, means that the system is not going to be as transparent as you would like it to be.

I'm very interested in learning more about DSP Room Correction. Does anyone have experience with this and where do you start?

Thanks!

If it were I, I would pass on the Synergistic snake oil and stick to more mainstream equipment.  

Dear Almarg9, thank you for taking the time to research my components - most appreciated! Interesting observation and one that is completely true. Yes, most of my listening is through the Cambridge via Balanced connection to the Krell, where a to achieve a near Live sound volume, the Krell is at approximately 25% output level, (based on the volume setting), where the Luxman Tuner being single ended, the output volume setting needs to be set higher for similar output. The Krell has a "Trim" setting where you can somehow adjust each input, both Balanced and SE, to produce the same output regardless of input, I have never used this feature but will look into adjusting the Balanced signal to match. I will also try the SE outputs of the Cambridge and note the difference. SNAPSC, The Sony is connected directly via Digital Coax to my Cambridge Streamer/Dac and makes for a great transport as it holds 5 disks. The only exception is when I listen to the rare SACD, then I use it's line level outputs. What DAC's might you suggest that you know will outperform the Cambridge?

I thank you both for your kind assistance!

It all starts with the source and ends with the room.  If you are using the DAC in the Sony SCD2000ES...then that is the weakest link...I know because I owned one...but if you are using the DAC in the Azure...then I'd suggest trying another DAC...there are a lot of better options for $1k....virtually all of them can be returned if they aren't a big improvement.  Here is one link to get you started:

https://www.cherryamp.com/dac-dac-d-to-a-convertor

Krell Vanguard Integrated Amp.
Cambridge Audio AZURE 851N Streamer/DAC.
Sony SCD2000ES Transport/SACD player.
Luxman T117 Tuner (Best sounding component)?

I took a quick look at the descriptions and specs of these components, and I’m wondering if a factor in your perception that the tuner might be the best sounding component may be the fact that the Krell integrated amp has unusually high gain (48 db, corresponding to a sensitivity of only 0.16 volts), and consequently the relatively low output voltage of the tuner (0.7 volts in FM mode) may result in using volume control settings that are more optimal than with the other components.

I’m thinking that the high gain of the amp may be causing you to run the volume control of the Cambridge at a setting that is well below max, which can be sonically disadvantageous in the case of volume control mechanisms operating in the digital domain (as is the case with the Cambridge). And perhaps you are having to run the amp’s volume control at undesirably low settings when you listen to the Sony.

If so, you may want to consider inserting Rothwell attenuators at the inputs of the amp to which the Sony and/or the Cambridge are connected. I and a number of others here have reported fine results using Rothwell attenuators, while a few have reported them as causing some compromise to dynamics. I suspect that the latter cases may often be due to impedance issues, which would not be present with your particular components. I would avoid any inline attenuators other than the Rothwells, though, as I know that some of the others have impedances which are much more likely to be problematical.

http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html

Finally, since the Cambridge unit provides both balanced and unbalanced outputs, if you already haven’t I would try both and compare. I would not assume that either one would necessarily provide better sonics than the other, as it will depend on the designs of the interface circuits in both that unit and the amp.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

Hello, millercarbon1. I am embarrassed to say I have no idea what HFT, HFTX, ECT is? I think I got the PHT as being fuse upgrades, yes?

Thank you! 

Hello to all,

The demo system I listened to was top-of-the-line McIntosh and B&W speakers all wired up with AQ IC's and Speaker cables. In terms of what I heard that moved me, it was like the artists were right there in the same room with me, each in their respective places with absolutely no veil over the sound as I have this problem in my system. The SQ out of the demo system raised the hairs on the back of my neck, I have never heard sound produced like this before, it actually touched me at an emotional level.
All of the above suggestions are excellent - thank you! I do think I set my budget to low on the speaker cables, problem is the good ones are quite expensive. DSP room correction I have heard does some amazing things to your system, but I have no idea who makes such devices, can anyone help with this? As far as Synergistic Research goes, I'll check into it. Thanks again everybody. Please keep this going! 

That's it? That's everything? Nothing up your sleeve??

Okay so its pretty easy then. You've simply made the same mistake as almost everyone else, and put all your money in big-box components, none in tweaks. Spend your $1k on as much Synergistic Research as you can.

Two HFT Speaker Kits and one set of HFT for the walls will run you right at $1k. You mention being "moved" that is just what you'll get. Your system and speakers will disappear, far more than with any of the other things you've done, and they won't change your overall sound character except to make what you have deeper, wider, more extended and detailed yet with a slightly more relaxed melt into it vibe in spite of the increased presence and dynamics. Search around for the threads you'll see guys like me and Pritchard and some others, everyone who has this stuff raves about it.

Or if for some reason you don't want to try those, then ECT yield very similar results only instead of the walls these go directly on the components. I started with PHT (phono) and ECT, and found they work amazingly well on everything from tube amp to turntable to phono stage to even the laptop I watch movies on. One ECT improves video about equivalent to going from 180i to 4K. Yeah and the sound gets better at the same time too.

Yet right away guys like Pritchard were after me telling everyone to start with HFT. Honestly hard to say it really matters, they are all the same only different. And they are all additive. More and more only gets better and better. I've got two sets on the walls, set on each speaker, Wide Angle HFT, HFTX, three sets of ECT, set of PHT, Blue Quantum Fuse in everything, and plan on upgrading to Orange soon.

You want to be moved, just do it. Huge, huge value for the money.

Very nice system with carefully selected elements.  If I were to choose a weak spot that would truly affect the musicality (cleanness, clarity, detail) would be the Blue Jeans White speaker cables.  Perhaps you could look on the used market for a pair of 15 foot cables constructed with higher quality conductors.  In years of trials including purchasing cables that disappointed me, the conclusion I reached is that conductor Quality really makes the difference in speaker cables.  Shoot for ultra pure copper or even better, silver if you can score a super deal.  Good luck!

Great system!  Get off the merry-go-round and just enjoy the music for a while.

Another question-
What were the components of the system you liked?
And, where are you located?
Bob

What was it in the system, sound wise, that you listened to that was better then what you have at home?

From the looks of it you've got some great gear.

How about your room? It has a huge effect on your sound Have you considered a DSP unit?