Anthony Gallo 5LS and Gallo Subs X 2
Oldies but goodies.
Oldies but goodies.
Seeking advice on Speakers that create an intimate 2 channel listening experience
So the past month I started a couple of threads on speaker choice on AVS forum (One asked for Powered/Active floor standing Speaker choices and another one around non-active FS speakers for a tube amp I was looking at).
But I've come to realize this was the wrong tact, got lots of flack much deserved and wanted to try to solicit the advice/opinions on this forum which I just discovered.
Short background...Hunkered down in a suburb just outside NYC now for the past 3-4 months, I started to get the itch for a dedicated 2 channel stereo Turntable setup in our living room in May. After much research and twists and turns and immediate upgraditis, as some know on here from other posts, I've finally settled in and now own a Rega Planar 10 Turntable. I also own a Sutherland phono --20/20 with LPS and that's staying. Right now the phono preamp is hooked up direct to a pair of ELAC ARF51 floorstanding speakers (all drivers powered by built in AB amps) which I like a lot BUT ITS HERE THAT I WANT MORE. Btw, I love the ELAC design of mounting the tweeter concentric in the mid driver -- makes sense to me. I kinda wish ELAC would take the same design and make a reference speaker but thats for another day.
So to swap out the ELACs, I will obviously need an amp, but I will figure that out later and want to focus on getting the right speakers for me for what I want. So what do I want?
1. Floorstanders. Close to full range as possible. No subs.
2. Looks count since in my main living room.
3. Speakers that prioritize Imaging Imaging Imaging. That disappear in the room creating an intimate but 3D listening experience. Clean (Accurate) warm sound. No distortion. I would easily sacrifice low end for untiring highs and warm mids I don't listen to metal or hiphop anymore so I don't need loudness, more like lounge experience if that makes sense. Apologize if I got the adjectives wrong but its personal description of what I'm seeking.
4. Price Point - -$10k-25k. Room is 22x18 with 25 foot ceiling
I would like to audition/demo before I buy and since I live in the Tri-State area it should be possible. But I'm finding that obviously difficult to do right now. I listened to a pair of Salk speakers but didn't love them. And have an appt with the Audio Doctor in NJ in two weeks.
Thanks in advance.
But I've come to realize this was the wrong tact, got lots of flack much deserved and wanted to try to solicit the advice/opinions on this forum which I just discovered.
Short background...Hunkered down in a suburb just outside NYC now for the past 3-4 months, I started to get the itch for a dedicated 2 channel stereo Turntable setup in our living room in May. After much research and twists and turns and immediate upgraditis, as some know on here from other posts, I've finally settled in and now own a Rega Planar 10 Turntable. I also own a Sutherland phono --20/20 with LPS and that's staying. Right now the phono preamp is hooked up direct to a pair of ELAC ARF51 floorstanding speakers (all drivers powered by built in AB amps) which I like a lot BUT ITS HERE THAT I WANT MORE. Btw, I love the ELAC design of mounting the tweeter concentric in the mid driver -- makes sense to me. I kinda wish ELAC would take the same design and make a reference speaker but thats for another day.
So to swap out the ELACs, I will obviously need an amp, but I will figure that out later and want to focus on getting the right speakers for me for what I want. So what do I want?
1. Floorstanders. Close to full range as possible. No subs.
2. Looks count since in my main living room.
3. Speakers that prioritize Imaging Imaging Imaging. That disappear in the room creating an intimate but 3D listening experience. Clean (Accurate) warm sound. No distortion. I would easily sacrifice low end for untiring highs and warm mids I don't listen to metal or hiphop anymore so I don't need loudness, more like lounge experience if that makes sense. Apologize if I got the adjectives wrong but its personal description of what I'm seeking.
4. Price Point - -$10k-25k. Room is 22x18 with 25 foot ceiling
I would like to audition/demo before I buy and since I live in the Tri-State area it should be possible. But I'm finding that obviously difficult to do right now. I listened to a pair of Salk speakers but didn't love them. And have an appt with the Audio Doctor in NJ in two weeks.
Thanks in advance.
223 responses Add your response
I also recommend Raidho. I have a pair of D2.1s with a Gryphon Diablo 120 that are decidedly intimate, holographic, warm. They are not full-range however, but I'm not missing anything. Still you should give Raidho a listen. If you buy Raidho used you might make it in your price range (that's what I did). But you price range is perhaps too restrictive for all you are asking the system to do. You can get the Diablo for under 10K and it is one of the very best integrateds out there. Since you like the concentric driver--why not Kef Reference line? Paired with a Hegel H190 or 390, could be a real winner for you. Also worth a listen. |
Imaging and palpable presence are of the highest priority for me. I have found that with the Dali Epicon series. I have the smaller Epicon 2s that with a subwoofer come close to recreating a piano in my listening room. Having said that you should listen to the Epicon 6 or 8’s. If I did it over again, I would have started with either of those models that are medium size floor standing loudspeakers. Also, it doesn’t hurt that the Epicons are absolutely gorgeous. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JDLhKYDRwVcjfD1Ysl22W76Z7cIMC1hY/view?usp=sharing_eil&invite=CI... |
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My room size is nearly the same as yours(maybe 30' wide) and I have Focal-JM Lab Mezzo Utopia speakers each with Jeff Rowland Model 12 monoblocks and they sound fantastic in every way. I do have a JM Lab Sub Utopia so the Mezzo's low frequencies are crossed over at a higher frequency due to the sub. They were $12,000/pr new but you might be able to find a nice used pair for half that. But, there are new lines of Utopia's and others that might be worth looking into:https://www.focal.com/en/home-audio/high-fidelity-speakers Good luck in your search. |
Not as well known in the US but becoming a favorite in the studios for its musicality- accuracy and not bright the Amphion Loudspeakers I have their. Argon S 3 Monitors with Svs SB 3000 subs this monitor can be placed anywhere having a rear passive radiator which is far better. Then any port that gives coloration and excellent bass for. It’s size ,as well as their floor standers with correct timing and 6.5 inch wave guide and easy to drive 8 ohm 87 db efficient but’s easy load well worth checking out you hear interplay in music that. Most speaker can’t do unless spending many times their cost.Hand built in Finland and using. All Seas. Drivers from Norway . Well worth seeking out I have shocked many audiophile with their capabilities. https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/02/09/amphion-argon-3s-loudspeakers-review/ |
I had Maggie’s and loved them, then went to Vandersteen’s. I’ve had several sets of Vandersteen’s & moved up through a couple models. They continue to amaze me. Time & phase correct... Push them with tubes in your pre, amp or both. I use a VTL tube pre & SS amp. IMO you need to have tubes in the chain to get them to sing. |
"Intimate" and "organic" defined... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfLzqkoReJY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NjXfzGoEdI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E8ExBUC64c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ohq1of7Y8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCKvZd1SlzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuFZNQlEalc&t=63s It will be very, very difficult to find anything moreso... |
@aj523 -- You want intimate/enveloping/engulfing and midrange excellence bar none in a listening room as many cubic feet as your - and, naturally, "more" than your ELAC’s - I’d go active again, but bigger and with added headroom; make that the ATC SCM150 ASL Pro, not much of a looker perhaps (subjective, I’d say - I really like their rugged, no frills industrial build-like-a-tank appearance), but in most every conceivable way an extremely capable speaker that, to my ears, floors most "highend" audiophile speakers regardless of price with their outright naturalness, sheer honesty and insight of presentation. The pro-version retails in the US I believe at around $20-25K/pair (there’s a more "civil" looking tower version, though it’s more extensive without sounding better), but with build-in amps and active filters, and bearing in mind both the quality and quantity of their sound (and ’quantity’ here isn’t trivial), it’s close to a steal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHAxka2fIs8 https://youtu.be/PrdmwbYWamY?t=133 |
The ICs are you using between the phono pre and the Elacs can be your real issue. I would start there before going down the speaker rabbit hole. There is a company (Mr Cable?) that sells used cables (best value) look into Wire World Series 7+ Also raise your speakers off the floor ~ 4-6" can help more than you would think hth |
@bdp24, whether or not a sound source behaves as a point source or a line source depends on its physical dimensions in comparison to the wavelengths produced. The Rhythmik/GR Research dipole sub is far too small to approximate a line source at subwoofer frequencies. " The dipole null to either side of planars/line sources/dipole subs eliminates sidewall-to-sidewall modes..." Not entirely, but it does take the side-to-side modes longer to develop. Remember the front wave and back wave are each spreading out omnidirectionally, cancelling where and when they combine out-of-phase, but not cancelling elsewhere and elsewhen. You can think of a dipole as two monopoles back-to-back, in opposite polarity, with a wrap-around path length separating them. After a sufficient number of bounces the frontwave and backwave have energized all of the room modes, but their energy is also dissipating as this is happening, so a dipole does have somewhat smoother in-room bass than a monopole. But two intelligently-positioned monopoles approximate the in-room smoothness of a single dipole, and impact is preserved. This is why I use four monopole subs in my system, which is designed to blend well with two dipole main speakers. "... the sound of the room itself being pressurized is conspicuously absent. Employing four subs instead of two does not provide that benefit, does it?" I’m not convinced that a net unpressurised room is an advantage at low frequencies. My experience has been that good, solid low-end impact is facilitated by pressurization. That being said, it is quite possible to configure four subs to not provide net pressurization at low frequencies. Just reverse the polarity of two of them. I have done this and imo it does some things well but impact is noticeably softened, so it is not something I recommend. On the other hand, I generally find reversing the polarity of ONE of the four subs to be beneficial. Or as an alternative, the phase of two of the subs can be set 90 degrees apart from the other two. These techniques improve the in-room bass smoothness in the modal region while preventing excessive bass energy down below the modal region. I owned a set of those Gradient subs when I had Quads and agree with your assessment. As I said before, I have NOTHING against the Rhythmik/GR Research subs. I’ve chosen to do something different, which arguably also works well. Duke |
@tomavodka Magnepan is now the lead vote-getter. Unfortunately, I don’t think I have the proper room set up for them. Speakers are limited to about 2-3 feet from the back wall at most and most of that back wall consists of HUGE 15 foot windows. I was told that would be a sonic disaster with planars... |
Duke, the "reason" I was referring to is your facts about the SPL drop difference between point source subs (yes, they are omni-directional, but for this discussion that is immaterial) and line source loudspeakers. Dipole planars share the 3dB drop off per doubled distance figure with line sources; a "6dB" sealed or ported sub will then be balanced with a planar speaker at only one listening distance---halve or double that distance and there will then be a 3dB imbalance. A dipole sub, on the other hand, will remain balanced with a dipole loudspeaker at all listening distances (assuming of course they were balanced to begin with ;-). Finnish company Gradient offered dipole subs for both Quad ESL’s, the 57 and the 63. They were compromised by poor drivers and electronics, unlike the OB/Dipole Sub from Rythmik Audio/GR Research. Rythmik’s Brian Ding designed the sub’s plate amp/control panel and dipole-compensation network, and has the electronics manufactured for him in China. Danny Richie designed the OB-specific 12" woofer, and has it made for him by TC Sounds, well known for their superior woofers (including the monster 18" LMS 3400). In addition, sealed and ported subs load the room differently than do planar woofers (such as the two bass panels in the Magneplanar Tympani T-IVa loudspeakers, a pair of which I own) and open baffle/dipole woofers and subs. The dipole null to either side of planars/line sources/dipole subs eliminates sidewall-to-sidewall modes, and with both the front and rear of the woofer cone/planar Mylar being "open" to the room and therefore not increasing and decreasing the bass pressure in the room itself---as do sealed and ported subs (when the cone moves inward, room pressure is decreased, when it moves outward pressure is increased)---the sound of the room itself being pressurized is conspicuously absent. Employing four subs instead of two does not provide that benefit, does it? The OB/Dipole Sub offered by GR Research in collaboration with Rythmik Audio is more Danny Richie’s (GRR) baby than Brian Ding’s (Rythmik). Danny is a proponent of open baffle loudspeakers and subs, and when he learned of fellow-Texan Ding’s new servo-feedback subs thought combining Brian’s servo with an open baffle woofer would set a new standard in low frequency reproduction. And so it has! Ding prefers the room-loading characteristics of sealed and ported subs to that of open baffle/dipole. Each to his own. ;-) |
@bdp24 wrote, " Duke is of course absolutely correct about sealed and ported subs not being able to be satisfactorily mated with planar loudspeakers, for the reason he cited..." That’s not what I said, or at least not what I meant to say. I was talking about hybrid electostats, wherein a tall (line-source-approximating) panel sits atop a (point-source-approximating) box woofer, but failed to make that clear. For the record, in my opinion sealed and ported subs can be satisfactorily mated with planar loudspeakers, but doing so calls for a somewhat unorthodox approach. I have great respect for both Rhythmik Audio and Danny Ritchie, and would expect their servo-feedback dipole collaboration to be superb. Duke |
@mrklas"I have own Sonus Fabers over the years and suggest you audition the Olympica Nova line."Yep,Sonus Faber is where I would go in half a heartbeat! |
aj523, you’re welcome. It’s fun to help earnest persons who are itching to learn. Most people here are kind and have experiences to share. There are a LOT of variables, as many are pointing out, including the important amp/speaker pairing. Do research on which amps work best with various genres of speakers. Look for compatibility and performance, and don’t presume that because someone likes a combination that 1. they have it anywhere near optimized, and 2. that you will like it. Generally, my take on various speakers: 1. Dynamic: powerful, more compact and focused imaging, and potential boxy coloration (in some design VERY boxy colorations). Soundstage pretty well limited to he size of speaker and drivers. Variations include putting drivers on bottom, sides, back, etc. Amplification preferences vary from lower power and tube through higher power and SS. 2. Panel: "Wall of sound"; typically more diffuse and larger imaging, typically requires more robust amp to get better macrodynamics (i.e. more bass presence). Sensed by many to be "faster", however, I disagree, and state that they are simply different. There are ardent enthusiasts of both magnetic planar and electrostatic. Hybrid dynamic/panel speakers are available. Usually recommended to use higher power/current amps. Others use tube amps with lower power to get tone and large soundstage. 3. Horn, very easy to drive, so many use small Watt tube amps. Delicate and potentially extremely revealing, however some are sensitive to the compression driver/horn sound. Often is smallish sounding source compared to larger dynamic and panels. Can have terrific imaging. Can be in cabinet or Open Baffle. Hybrid horn/dynamic is often seen as a particular genre. 4. Line source, and quasi-line source: Big sound like a panel, with better dynamics. More convoluted in imaging than horn or dynamic, but with a fullness difficult for other genres to produce. Can be in cabinet or Open Baffle, or hybrid. Amplification can vary. 5. Open Baffle: Cleaner, i.e. no cabinet coloration, with a room filling back wave similar to panel. Can have larger full range driver with supplemental bass, which allows coherence of a horn with a bit more generous midrange. Can suffer from anemic bass if utilizing only 1 smaller full range driver, but various methods have been employed to address that. Often tube amps, sometimes very low Watt, are preferred. I usually enjoy higher power regardless of speaker. 6. Omni: Extremely diffuse sound, which I call the "Mushroom Cloud" soundstage. Not good imaging, but very enveloping and highly listenable without strain. May or may not have good low end. Amplification can vary. There are variants and hybrids of all these genres. BTW, fans of all these types of speakers insist they are the most natural, accurate, beautiful sounding, the only "proper" performers, etc. They all have something to offer. To the community; please, I’m well aware your descriptions may differ, some significantly, and that there are speakers of each genre that depart significantly from my description. My descriptions are quite generalized and if you want to discuss your favorite, feel free, but I’m not arguing my points. I have used all these types of speakers and this is my take on them from experience. |
1- Steve Guttenberg continually refers to Maggies---including the new LRS---as ribbon speakers. He’s been in the hi-fi biz all this time, and remains so ignorant? The LRS does NOT contain ribbon drivers, period! He doesn’t differentiate between magnetic-planar drivers (Magnepan, Eminent Technology, GR Research, etc.), electrostatic (Quad, SoundLabs, Sanders, some Martin Logans, etc.), ribbons (the tweeters in some Magnepans and that in the ET LFT-8b, the old full-range ribbon Apogees), and quasi-ribbons (some of the Magnepan drivers). Paul McGowen of PS Audio does the same in his "Ask Paul" videos. In one of them, Paul even states that ESL's have conductive wires on their Mylar! Duh. 2- Duke is of course absolutely correct about sealed and ported subs not being able to be satisfactorily mated with planar loudspeakers, for the reason he cited. This has been known for many years. For that same reason, a dipole sub is THE way to add subs to any and all planar loudspeakers. The one offered by Rythmik Audio in collaboration with GR Research is State-Of-The-Art. Open baffle, dipole, with the added benefit of the Rythmik Servo-Feedback system. |
Another vote for Magnepans. With that budget you can afford the 20.7s, but with limited space, you probably wouldn’t want the 30.7s because of the extra bass panel. Not many speakers can compete with the mids and highs of Magnepans and very few can compete on imaging. You will lean your head back in your listening seat and swear you were at the recording of the song. |
As Avanti suggested, a lot of the imaging/speaker disappearing act is related to set-up.... positioning of the speaker in the room, relationship to the listening position, etc. Most good speakers mentioned here will do that if properly set up. Conversely, the “best” speaker will fail in that regard if set-up is not optimized. Your other requirement of warmth and intimacy can be accomplished with the right amplifier. For example, a good 300b based SET or PSET, but that would require an efficient speaker. I will add two speaker recommendations: Audio Note and Living Voice paired with the right amplifier. |
@avanti1960 Hi thx. So I originally started out with an amp in mind and posted such and got slammed and was told to pick the best speakers for your budget and room, and that the amp, less of a contribution to overall sound, would limit speaker choices. "Class A/B watts are cheap and tube amps limit choices 4 ohms no way, etc." Seems like I can’t win either way! Lol. So anyway I say to you let’s worry about the best matching amp later and willing to budget as needed. Ok? Anyway, I do have constraints in my 22Lx18Wx25H room. The speakers have to be along the 22 ft wall and the couch is indeed against the opposite wall. My current speakers are 2 feet from the back wall and about 6 feet from the side walls and sound good to my ears (but have not done any room analysis). Room is carpeted and has that big couch and some side chairs, two coffee tables. I’d post a pic here if I knew how. Anyway there you have it. |
@douglas_schroeder Thank you, thats helpful technical education. Putting ALL THAT ASIDE, what are your opinions and what have you found to be the differences in sound qualities all things being equal that each technology is trying to achieve and does achieve? There are always compromises in speaker design and you've done a number of reviews on both types. |
Magnepan is not ESL. Magnetic planar is the tech, not Electrostatic. I have reviewed and owned both. Both are panels or dipole designs (Some others are hybrid). The reference in historical section talks about ESL or ribbon speakers. Most of Magnepan’s lineup are their own Quasi-ribbon technology. Not ESL. The discussion of ESL is in regard to the dipole characteristics of panel speakers, and in several respects, though technically different, magnetic planners and ESL speakers are similar. Panels do carry their own distinctive characteristics, and opinions are split on them, as might be expected, both in terms of sonic characteristics and suitability to build a preferable system. I find them to have appeal, but as aforesaid, with the caveat that they will do some things better/different and some things worse/different than other genres of speakers. |
aj, Since you are going to need an amplifier, speaker recommendations tend to be somewhat hollow unless amplification is taken into account for compatability and synergy. it needs to be figured out with the speakers. what is your total budget including amp? also we need to know your possible room layouts for the best recommendations. how close can you sit from the speakers? can you position your new speakers four feet from the wall and bring your chair or couch away from the wall behind you? the reason i ask is that an intimate setting is typically a nearfield triangle and some speakers need space and proximity to sound their best. there are speakers that should be eliminated if your speakers need to be close to the wall and your couch has to be against the opposite wall (not good). if the speakers are four feet from the wall and three feet from side walls, that would make for a center to center distance of 11 feet on the narrow wall in which case the back of your chair wants to be about 14 feet from the wall in front of you. give us some idea of your possible room layouts. commiting to this will yield the best results and get the most out of your new system. suggesting speakers without amp and room considerations is incomplete and could lead to unintended compromises. tony |
" Has anyone compared Magnepan to Martin Logan? " I have owned both, so yes, but that was years ago and Martin Logan’s product line now includes a wider range of formats. The ones I owned had a tall electrostatic panel sitting atop a short woofer box. The Martin Logans were better at some things, and the Maggies were better at some things. But there is one inevitable acoustic characteristic of the tall panel/short wooferbox format that you should be aware of, and unfortunately it’s not common knowledge. First a bit of background: Sound propagates differently from the point-source-approximating woofer than from the line-source-approximating panel . Sound pressure levels falls off by 6 dB for each doubling of distance from a point source, but only 3 dB for each doubling of distance from a line source. This means that the tonal balance of a hybrid electrostat with the tall panel/one woofer configuration changes with distance because the relative loudness of woofer and panel changes with distance. The farther back you are, the louder the panel is, relative to the woofer. I have measured this and it’s not just theoretical; it’s real. In my opinion the key to a tall panel/single woofer hybrid adapting to a wide variety of room sizes and/or preferred listening distances is adjustability. The relative loudness of woofer and panel should be user-adjustable. I don’t know whether that is the case or not for their current line. Duke |
As the 3 day holiday weekend here in the US closes out (beautiful weather here in the northeast), I’m spending some time setting up an excel spreadsheet on the various recommendations and where I can hear them. So far I’ve tallied 29 different speaker choices. I had to leave out some recommendations - for example, I left out all speakers requiring stands except the Harbeths because they got the highest amount of votes -5 to be exact which is telling. While still taking recommendations, the next cut will eliminate speakers that aren’t available to demo either at a dealer or a audiophiles home within 90 minutes of my address- meaning the metro NY, Nj, CT area is wide open. Cuomos covid response is also potentially a limiting factor. It is wild how so many people truly believe theirs is the very best for what I’m looking for. How could 29 different speakers be the very best audio nirvana....TBC P.S. Interestingly, some of the bigger high profile names didn’t garnish one vote, Revel and Focal and B&W come to mind. P.S.S And I did get one addtl VERY STRONG recommendation over at AVS forum for Wharfedale and their newest Elysian 4. |
