Wow what a deluge of recommendations overnight! So overwhelmed. I’d love to hear all of them in my house in a blind listening session but thats obviously impossible!
I will include panels - a dealer I’ve purchased from in the past wants me to buy Martin Logan Expression 13a heavily discounted right now would be his choice. Magnepans are better ? But they look a lot bigger?
Other brands that peaked my interest are Magico, Vandersteen, Sound Labs, Nola and Bache Tribecas!
Interesting so far Harbeth has been recommended the most.
Last point, whomever told me about SkyFi Shop which is like 15 minutes from me. Thank you- that may be my best bet as they can bring over several different rebuilt speakers (some of the same brands above come in and out of their shop) at a huge discount to my living room. Its an idea anyway. They have Nola Baby Grand Referemce for 25k, retail was $60k, just an example. |
Personally I own Vandersteen 5As. I would look for a nice used pair in the =$6K range and sink money into other components that you feel you need. They have a small footprint for a full range speaker. I have not compared them to the newer Vandersteens with the newer drivers. But saving a few bucks the sound would have to be about $10K better.
Next if you want a 3D image then go with open baffle speakers like Alon/Nola, Spacial Audio, etc. You tube them and go through the list on of other videos on the side of the screen. If you have a large enough room then you tube field coil speakers. IMO they are the ultimate sound, space, imaging, depth, etc. The mid-range to my ears is the best you can achieve. I built myself a pair but they are no full range yet.
Happy Listening. |
You cannot go wrong with the Martin Logan's. They are not that hard to find an amp for, but they are the speakers you are describing! |
Sounds like the Daedalus Apollo’s might be the ticket. Send me a PM if you want to learn more.
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@sunkenpirate. I heard the Martin Logans are harder to drive so don't work well with Tubes for example and they also sell them at Bestbuy which gives me pause- maybe it shouldn't but it does.
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Make an appointment to go to In Living Stereo. Some of the recommendations you’ve received, man, I just don’t know what to make of some of these, well anyway.
Everyone hears differently and the word intimate conjures different things to different people. Some of the speakers recommended are ugly as heck but many speakers might have been purchased immediately following a divorce LOL.
My version of intimate is likely different than yours but my first thought is tube amplification and reasonably sensitive speakers. Intimate could mean a nice integrated with an in board phono stage. You might enjoy a Luxman SS integrated with a pair of Wilson Audio Sabrinas. You might also enjoy an Audio Note integrated with a pair of Audio Note e’s. At your budget you could get a Meishu Tonmeister and a mid range version of the e’s. You might also enjoy a Leben cs600x with a Leben phono stage and some Devore Orangutans. Shindo and devores are also an exceptional combo. Take a system approach and purchase your amp and speakers when demonstrated together to ensure you get the “intimate” that you are after. |
While in NJ, see if you can also audition PureAudioProject at VPI Industries in Cliffwood. They love them. Open baffle could be a game changer from the boxes.
Have fun.
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As the OP can see, answers will vary.
I submit my reviews of speakers at Dagogo.com, as a plethora of speakers can sound intimate, warm, precise. Panel, dynamic, dynamic hybrid, horn hybrid, full range, quasi-line source. Yup, all of 'em.
Select your genre of speaker well, for it will dictate the goal of satisfaction. But, don't be fooled by thinking any genre can "do it all". Enthusiasm aside, every genre of speaker has compromises, significant compromises. You choose one genre, and you have deselected other, immensely gratifying set of attributes attainable only with other genres of speakers. It's the nature of the activity.
Finally, be prepared to spend time and money, perhaps even changing components and cables, to achieve higher satisfaction (if desired) when introducing new speakers. I do not recall a single instance in 25 years of system building where introducing new speakers resulted in optimized sound using the initial system components/cables.
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I’m not calling anyone out nor trying to begin a flame war but do people really find Maggies, Soundlabs, Matin Logans, Pure Audio Projects and other visually “challenged” speakers aesthetically attractive? They also must come well into a room to sound right. Listen, I think they look cool but I don’t think they look attractive.
A Devore O96, now thats a beautiful speaker in both a modern or a traditional interior. A Wilson Sabrina, most find the form attractive in a more contemporary interior. There are plenty of speaker choices that are beautiful to both the eye and the ear on offer without looking like a traffic barrier.
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Your ears, your money, find a local dealer that will work with you. |
Audio Physics and Boenicke image really well, I've heard them a few times at audio shows. |
One of the best imaging demos I've heard was the Bacch SP processor driving Fyne 701 speakers. Very impressive but expensive. Fynes has a lot of speakers and they seem to image very well. I was thinking about buying a pair myself.
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That is a large space to fill. You will need large speakers and good power.
call Jim Salk at Salk Audio. He sells direct and is able to use much higher quality speakers, crossovers and cabinets. Tell him Larry Edwards from Denver sent you. You will love this guy. His $6,000 Song3 Encores sounded better than $60,000 speakers at the RMAF show in Denver. |
OP, suggest Cube Nenuphar’s with appropriate amplification. See thread on these speakers.
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I personally believe that what you seek would be satisfied by Dynaudio speakers. The new Contour 60i (arriving to the US in August, replacing the highly reviewed Contour 60) may be your ticket. Retail price is $10, 750. If you can find a dealer who still has the Contour 60 in stock then I recommend giving them a listen. About the smoothest sound from mid range to the top end. And with a ton of very good bass. Construction is excellent, from internal to external. Finish is as good as it gets. The gray oak lacquer is stunning and a must see, in person. I have a pair of the 60i on order. Read the review on the Contour 60 by Soundstage Ultra. That review sums it up very well. Best of luck to you. Enjoy the music. |
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+1 to Maggie's. With your budget and room you can go pretty high up the product list as well as match amps to them.
Do people actually think Maggies are aesthetically challenged? Haven't heard that in 45 yrs in the hobby. At worst, even as if as they are, they disappear in a room - in black. I will say the creme colored panels with walnut looks like a '70s European kitchen. 🤮
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Has anyone compared Magnepan to Martin Logan? Both electrostatic dipole panels but ML took the hybrid approach and uses a traditional box subwoofer for the bass. On Magnepans website they take an indirect shot at ML basically saying they could have chosen that path but didn't think it was optimum. Result - Magnepan is a much bigger obtrusive speaker. But is it sonically a notoceable difference 🤔
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aj523 ... anyone compared Magnepan to Martin Logan? Both electrostatic dipole panels but ... Magnepans are not electrostats.
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Try to listen to some Joseph Audio speakers. Easy to drive, great timbre, coherent not a boomy bass. |
@cleeds
Ok I'm learning. :) Their own website refers to them as electrostatics but a diff magnet technology. Regardless, they are often compared and contrasted to ML and Soundlab. So have you listened to compare? |
I heard them both to me the ML sounded much thinner than the Maggie’s. Not sure of the ML model but in the 1.7 price range made me pick the 1.7 by a lot. I have since moved up to the 3.7i.
Audio Connection also carries Maggie's. |
As the 3 day holiday weekend here in the US closes out (beautiful weather here in the northeast), I’m spending some time setting up an excel spreadsheet on the various recommendations and where I can hear them.
So far I’ve tallied 29 different speaker choices. I had to leave out some recommendations - for example, I left out all speakers requiring stands except the Harbeths because they got the highest amount of votes -5 to be exact which is telling.
While still taking recommendations, the next cut will eliminate speakers that aren’t available to demo either at a dealer or a audiophiles home within 90 minutes of my address- meaning the metro NY, Nj, CT area is wide open. Cuomos covid response is also potentially a limiting factor.
It is wild how so many people truly believe theirs is the very best for what I’m looking for. How could 29 different speakers be the very best audio nirvana....TBC
P.S. Interestingly, some of the bigger high profile names didn’t garnish one vote, Revel and Focal and B&W come to mind.
P.S.S And I did get one addtl VERY STRONG recommendation over at AVS forum for Wharfedale and their newest Elysian 4.
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That reminded me if you can listen to the Revel Salon 2 or Studio 2. |
@djones51
Yep. The Revel Salon 2 supposedly beats out every speaker time amd time again in blind tests at John Scheurmann's The Screening Room in Colorado. |
One more for the sheet. Vienna Acoustics "The Music". |
@twoleftears
Wow those are the most beautiful speakers I have ever seen! A little out of my price range even with a discount, but will keep in mind in case I see a demo or used. Thx |
There isn't anything as good for your purpose than good earphones powered with its own dedicated amp. I have Sennheiser 650's...the sound is many ways better than my multithousand dollar speakers.
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The smaller brother VA Liszt are *very* good too, but these days you could expect some significant discounts, especially on store demos and the like. |
" Has anyone compared Magnepan to Martin Logan? "
I have owned both, so yes, but that was years ago and Martin Logan’s product line now includes a wider range of formats. The ones I owned had a tall electrostatic panel sitting atop a short woofer box. The Martin Logans were better at some things, and the Maggies were better at some things.
But there is one inevitable acoustic characteristic of the tall panel/short wooferbox format that you should be aware of, and unfortunately it’s not common knowledge. First a bit of background:
Sound propagates differently from the point-source-approximating woofer than from the line-source-approximating panel . Sound pressure levels falls off by 6 dB for each doubling of distance from a point source, but only 3 dB for each doubling of distance from a line source.
This means that the tonal balance of a hybrid electrostat with the tall panel/one woofer configuration changes with distance because the relative loudness of woofer and panel changes with distance. The farther back you are, the louder the panel is, relative to the woofer. I have measured this and it’s not just theoretical; it’s real.
In my opinion the key to a tall panel/single woofer hybrid adapting to a wide variety of room sizes and/or preferred listening distances is adjustability. The relative loudness of woofer and panel should be user-adjustable. I don’t know whether that is the case or not for their current line.
Duke |
aj,
Since you are going to need an amplifier, speaker recommendations tend to be somewhat hollow unless amplification is taken into account for compatability and synergy. it needs to be figured out with the speakers.
what is your total budget including amp?
also we need to know your possible room layouts for the best recommendations.
how close can you sit from the speakers? can you position your new speakers four feet from the wall and bring your chair or couch away from the wall behind you?
the reason i ask is that an intimate setting is typically a nearfield triangle and some speakers need space and proximity to sound their best. there are speakers that should be eliminated if your speakers need to be close to the wall and your couch has to be against the opposite wall (not good).
if the speakers are four feet from the wall and three feet from side walls, that would make for a center to center distance of 11 feet on the narrow wall in which case the back of your chair wants to be about 14 feet from the wall in front of you.
give us some idea of your possible room layouts. commiting to this will yield the best results and get the most out of your new system.
suggesting speakers without amp and room considerations is incomplete and could lead to unintended compromises.
tony
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aj523 Their own website refers to them as electrostatics ... I find that difficult to believe. Magnepan speakers are not electrostatic.
... they are often compared and
contrasted to ML ... So have you listened to compare? Yes. Maggies and ML sound quite different.
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@cleeds its literally right on the website in the history section. I cant cut and paste from my cellphone.. Anyway I'm interested in what you found to be the differences? Thx in advance.
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Magnepan is not ESL. Magnetic planar is the tech, not Electrostatic. I have reviewed and owned both. Both are panels or dipole designs (Some others are hybrid).
The reference in historical section talks about ESL or ribbon speakers. Most of Magnepan’s lineup are their own Quasi-ribbon technology. Not ESL. The discussion of ESL is in regard to the dipole characteristics of panel speakers, and in several respects, though technically different, magnetic planners and ESL speakers are similar.
Panels do carry their own distinctive characteristics, and opinions are split on them, as might be expected, both in terms of sonic characteristics and suitability to build a preferable system. I find them to have appeal, but as aforesaid, with the caveat that they will do some things better/different and some things worse/different than other genres of speakers. |
@douglas_schroeder
Thank you, thats helpful technical education. Putting ALL THAT ASIDE, what are your opinions and what have you found to be the differences in sound qualities all things being equal that each technology is trying to achieve and does achieve? There are always compromises in speaker design and you've done a number of reviews on both types. |
@avanti1960
Hi thx. So I originally started out with an amp in mind and posted such and got slammed and was told to pick the best speakers for your budget and room, and that the amp, less of a contribution to overall sound, would limit speaker choices. "Class A/B watts are cheap and tube amps limit choices 4 ohms no way, etc." Seems like I can’t win either way! Lol. So anyway I say to you let’s worry about the best matching amp later and willing to budget as needed. Ok?
Anyway, I do have constraints in my 22Lx18Wx25H room. The speakers have to be along the 22 ft wall and the couch is indeed against the opposite wall. My current speakers are 2 feet from the back wall and about 6 feet from the side walls and sound good to my ears (but have not done any room analysis). Room is carpeted and has that big couch and some side chairs, two coffee tables. I’d post a pic here if I knew how. Anyway there you have it. |
As Avanti suggested, a lot of the imaging/speaker disappearing act is related to set-up.... positioning of the speaker in the room, relationship to the listening position, etc. Most good speakers mentioned here will do that if properly set up. Conversely, the “best” speaker will fail in that regard if set-up is not optimized. Your other requirement of warmth and intimacy can be accomplished with the right amplifier. For example, a good 300b based SET or PSET, but that would require an efficient speaker. I will add two speaker recommendations: Audio Note and Living Voice paired with the right amplifier.
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Another vote for Magnepans. With that budget you can afford the 20.7s, but with limited space, you probably wouldn’t want the 30.7s because of the extra bass panel. Not many speakers can compete with the mids and highs of Magnepans and very few can compete on imaging. You will lean your head back in your listening seat and swear you were at the recording of the song. |
Maggies and panels in general fail big time if your 2nd point in your OP is still a condition. Best wishes with your demos. Stay focused on what is important to you, otherwise you will be distracted easily by all of the sincere, well meaning but off topic recommendations. |
1- Steve Guttenberg continually refers to Maggies---including the new LRS---as ribbon speakers. He’s been in the hi-fi biz all this time, and remains so ignorant? The LRS does NOT contain ribbon drivers, period! He doesn’t differentiate between magnetic-planar drivers (Magnepan, Eminent Technology, GR Research, etc.), electrostatic (Quad, SoundLabs, Sanders, some Martin Logans, etc.), ribbons (the tweeters in some Magnepans and that in the ET LFT-8b, the old full-range ribbon Apogees), and quasi-ribbons (some of the Magnepan drivers). Paul McGowen of PS Audio does the same in his "Ask Paul" videos. In one of them, Paul even states that ESL's have conductive wires on their Mylar! Duh. 2- Duke is of course absolutely correct about sealed and ported subs not being able to be satisfactorily mated with planar loudspeakers, for the reason he cited. This has been known for many years. For that same reason, a dipole sub is THE way to add subs to any and all planar loudspeakers. The one offered by Rythmik Audio in collaboration with GR Research is State-Of-The-Art. Open baffle, dipole, with the added benefit of the Rythmik Servo-Feedback system. |
With a smaller room Audio Physic Virgo III, for larger room Audio Physic Avanti II |
you can ck out my SEAS Thos speakers, go to YT type in SEAS Thor,, The cheap mic does no justice to the solid musical bass line.
Ona scale of 1- 100, the Thors rate zero on fatigue level, = non existent.
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aj523, you’re welcome. It’s fun to help earnest persons who are itching to learn. Most people here are kind and have experiences to share.
There are a LOT of variables, as many are pointing out, including the important amp/speaker pairing. Do research on which amps work best with various genres of speakers. Look for compatibility and performance, and don’t presume that because someone likes a combination that 1. they have it anywhere near optimized, and 2. that you will like it.
Generally, my take on various speakers:
1. Dynamic: powerful, more compact and focused imaging, and potential boxy coloration (in some design VERY boxy colorations). Soundstage pretty well limited to he size of speaker and drivers. Variations include putting drivers on bottom, sides, back, etc. Amplification preferences vary from lower power and tube through higher power and SS.
2. Panel: "Wall of sound"; typically more diffuse and larger imaging, typically requires more robust amp to get better macrodynamics (i.e. more bass presence). Sensed by many to be "faster", however, I disagree, and state that they are simply different. There are ardent enthusiasts of both magnetic planar and electrostatic. Hybrid dynamic/panel speakers are available. Usually recommended to use higher power/current amps. Others use tube amps with lower power to get tone and large soundstage.
3. Horn, very easy to drive, so many use small Watt tube amps. Delicate and potentially extremely revealing, however some are sensitive to the compression driver/horn sound. Often is smallish sounding source compared to larger dynamic and panels. Can have terrific imaging. Can be in cabinet or Open Baffle. Hybrid horn/dynamic is often seen as a particular genre.
4. Line source, and quasi-line source: Big sound like a panel, with better dynamics. More convoluted in imaging than horn or dynamic, but with a fullness difficult for other genres to produce. Can be in cabinet or Open Baffle, or hybrid. Amplification can vary.
5. Open Baffle: Cleaner, i.e. no cabinet coloration, with a room filling back wave similar to panel. Can have larger full range driver with supplemental bass, which allows coherence of a horn with a bit more generous midrange. Can suffer from anemic bass if utilizing only 1 smaller full range driver, but various methods have been employed to address that. Often tube amps, sometimes very low Watt, are preferred. I usually enjoy higher power regardless of speaker.
6. Omni: Extremely diffuse sound, which I call the "Mushroom Cloud" soundstage. Not good imaging, but very enveloping and highly listenable without strain. May or may not have good low end. Amplification can vary.
There are variants and hybrids of all these genres. BTW, fans of all these types of speakers insist they are the most natural, accurate, beautiful sounding, the only "proper" performers, etc. They all have something to offer.
To the community; please, I’m well aware your descriptions may differ, some significantly, and that there are speakers of each genre that depart significantly from my description. My descriptions are quite generalized and if you want to discuss your favorite, feel free, but I’m not arguing my points. I have used all these types of speakers and this is my take on them from experience. |
@mrklas"I have own Sonus Fabers over the years and suggest you audition the Olympica Nova line."Yep,Sonus Faber is where I would go in half a heartbeat! |
Yes, I agree, a lot of earnest persons should be helped out. 😃 |
@bdp24 wrote, " Duke is of course absolutely correct about sealed and ported subs not being able to be satisfactorily mated with planar loudspeakers, for the reason he cited..."
That’s not what I said, or at least not what I meant to say.
I was talking about hybrid electostats, wherein a tall (line-source-approximating) panel sits atop a (point-source-approximating) box woofer, but failed to make that clear.
For the record, in my opinion sealed and ported subs can be satisfactorily mated with planar loudspeakers, but doing so calls for a somewhat unorthodox approach. I have great respect for both Rhythmik Audio and Danny Ritchie, and would expect their servo-feedback dipole collaboration to be superb.
Duke |
Duke, the "reason" I was referring to is your facts about the SPL drop difference between point source subs (yes, they are omni-directional, but for this discussion that is immaterial) and line source loudspeakers. Dipole planars share the 3dB drop off per doubled distance figure with line sources; a "6dB" sealed or ported sub will then be balanced with a planar speaker at only one listening distance---halve or double that distance and there will then be a 3dB imbalance. A dipole sub, on the other hand, will remain balanced with a dipole loudspeaker at all listening distances (assuming of course they were balanced to begin with ;-). Finnish company Gradient offered dipole subs for both Quad ESL’s, the 57 and the 63. They were compromised by poor drivers and electronics, unlike the OB/Dipole Sub from Rythmik Audio/GR Research. Rythmik’s Brian Ding designed the sub’s plate amp/control panel and dipole-compensation network, and has the electronics manufactured for him in China. Danny Richie designed the OB-specific 12" woofer, and has it made for him by TC Sounds, well known for their superior woofers (including the monster 18" LMS 3400). In addition, sealed and ported subs load the room differently than do planar woofers (such as the two bass panels in the Magneplanar Tympani T-IVa loudspeakers, a pair of which I own) and open baffle/dipole woofers and subs. The dipole null to either side of planars/line sources/dipole subs eliminates sidewall-to-sidewall modes, and with both the front and rear of the woofer cone/planar Mylar being "open" to the room and therefore not increasing and decreasing the bass pressure in the room itself---as do sealed and ported subs (when the cone moves inward, room pressure is decreased, when it moves outward pressure is increased)---the sound of the room itself being pressurized is conspicuously absent. Employing four subs instead of two does not provide that benefit, does it? The OB/Dipole Sub offered by GR Research in collaboration with Rythmik Audio is more Danny Richie’s (GRR) baby than Brian Ding’s (Rythmik). Danny is a proponent of open baffle loudspeakers and subs, and when he learned of fellow-Texan Ding’s new servo-feedback subs thought combining Brian’s servo with an open baffle woofer would set a new standard in low frequency reproduction. And so it has! Ding prefers the room-loading characteristics of sealed and ported subs to that of open baffle/dipole. Each to his own. ;-) |
Demo
Magnanpan 3.7i, with a good high current amp.
You will be in music niverna!
Good luck in your quest |
@tomavodka
Magnepan is now the lead vote-getter. Unfortunately, I don’t think I have the proper room set up for them. Speakers are limited to about 2-3 feet from the back wall at most and most of that back wall consists of HUGE 15 foot windows. I was told that would be a sonic disaster with planars... |
