Seeking a Warm 12AX7 Tube for Preamp

@gotog I also ordered some inexpensive (but reportedly tested and matched) NOS Sylvania 12AT7 from a reputable eBay seller that will be in mid. next week. The preamp has been running for about a week. 2 days ago I received the new 12AX7 Mullard reissues and burnt them in overnight. After about 24 hours I sat down to listen a bit. And knowing the tubes needed more time, I just put on some music that I was not so familiar with. I've been wanting to explore some Chet Baker. I put on a mid-50s release of the Chet Baker Sings album. Before I know it, the album was over and I had not thought about the system at all. I think that's a good sign.

At this point I'm completely down the rabbit hole. For better or for worse. But regardless of where I end up. If nothing got better from here, I'm really satisfied! 

I really appreciate all of the emails and advice. 

@stereo_gen I had the Sovtek 12AX7 LPS in my Black Ice FX Glass Tube DAC as the tubes selected when I purchased the DAC from Black Ice. Those tubes sounded ok in the DAC and thought I’d try them in my Phono Pre and they sounded pretty bad. I put them back in the DAC feeling there might be something better out there and ended up trying some NOS RCA 5751 Triple Mica Black Plates off EBay for the heck of it and I was blown away… MAJOR DIFFERENCE !!! Much more musical, more analog sounding and for the price you can find these for they’re absolutely a steel of a deal.

@spacecadet65 how many hours do you have on the preamp? I ask because the original Matisse needed about 100 hours to sound good.  There is also some evidence from owners indicating that changing the 12at7 in this particular circuit has more impact than changing the 12ax7; and it looks like you have already infused some warmth on the 12at7 side.  Would hate for you to go down a rabbit hole of tube experimentation and substituting tube variants that may not be optimal in the circuit if the unit isn't fully burned in yet

If you have other tubes in this equipment that werent bright then the tubes might be the solution. Many times the system is too blame and it is better to isolate the offending component(s) and sell them replacing them with something more to your taste. I think it a mistake to use tubes or cables as tone controls in a system. You could end up with a bunch of stuff that is useless when you upgrade.

I have multiple 12Ax7, 12AU7 and 12AT7 NOS tubes.  Send me a private email and I can tell you about them.  wlennatyahoo

A few years ago, I have done my search for the same warm 12AX7 tube for my Vincent Audio SV237 and I've found this inexpensive Sovtek 1212AX7LPS (original version) for my to-go warm tube. You can go to the big A website to read reviews, and purchase, and return if you're not satisfied, but I don't believe you'll want to return it. 

Grant Fidelity are pricey but high quality.  

@spacecadet65 to find out if 5751 is substitute for 12AX7 in your amp/preamp, contact builder/manufacturer directly.

5751 ands 12AT7 are not interchangeable with 12AX7, despite folks treating them as such. any and all substitutions are circuit-dependent.

if you have a high gain preamp, 10-12dB attenuators are the most direct response. ive youse hlabs 12dB inline RCA attenuators for this very purpose. in my system theyre transparent. 

@fertguy OP said warm, which excludes TF. 

@skiznfliz, @trivema  - triple mica black plate GE 5751 are the bomb for sure. I bought a set last summer from a local Mass dealer. Use them in my lineatage and they are just sublime. A better fit with my heavily re-worked Valencias. Super quiet too, what a great tube. Might even replace my Tele smooth plates as my new favorite. Just my experience 

GE 5751 Triple Mica Black Plates did it for me. 
I know many folks despise EBay for tubes, but you probably can pick up a matched NOS pair for a few bucks under your budget to try out and see if you like. Make sure to check the seller’s feedback and that the seller accepts returns and you should be fine.  GE 5751 Triple Mica Black Plates are very desired excellent sounding tubes and in most tube reviewers top 10 lists.

Dropping from the higher gain 12ax7/100 down to a 5751/70 or a 12aT7/60, just having the lower gain should make a difference to help calm things down some.

While I currently use mid 1960s Mullard Blackburn 12Au7 and 12At7s myself in my amps, the most important thing discovered is sourcing tubes from a great tube reseller with the best testing and validation equipment. Truly matters.  

For re-issue tubes, I’ve tried and still own many [if not all] of the new production tubes mentioned here above, they are nice backup test tubes for reference checks once in a while. While not as musical, some of the new PSVane small tubes and Genelex Gold Lyons have worked okay for me in multiple amplifiers. Try that 5751 for a while and maybe a good 12aT7 next in those spots, and you might be good enough, and just listen to the music.

Oh it’s a rabbit hole for sure! I’ve ended up with four tube amps, one tube/SS hybrid and a collection of over 250 vacuum tubes. The tubes will outlive me AND my children! Unlike my wine cellar which always seems low, wonder why?

BTW, rolled in one of the GE 5751s last night in front of Raytheon GTB listening to Beth Hart’s new release.  Very relaxed, smooth and warm presentation with plenty of detail.  I think you’ll really like the GE vs the strident JJ.
 

The picture of the GE 5751s that I'm waiting to come in look to be gray plates.  The other 2 tubes are 12AT7 and I have Mullard reissue in those. I don't know what other tubes are interchangeable with those. But I can already see how I might lose myself in a rabbit hole here. LOL

I'm scheduled to get the shipments in tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes.

G

@spacecadet65 (love the name btw), if you picked up the triple mica black plate GE 5751, you've got a real winner, I have one of those as well.  I also have a couple regular GE 5751 grey plate, they're pretty good too with a neutral, linear "softer" sound signature. 

If you're volume pot is 9 o'clock and 90 dB speaker output, something is running with high gain.  You could try attenuators on the amplifier inputs.  Initially I could not get the Willsenton volume past 9 o'clock, 10 max with 99dB sensitive Klipsch Fortes.  With 10dB attenuators I can now use more of the volume pot, the VU meters move more than a centimeter or two and no loss in sound quality, dynamics, rhythm pace or timing. Check out Parts Express, they have Harrison Labs in-line attenuators for RCA inputs.  You can also find XLR attenuators if you're running fully balanced interconnects. 

Another thing to consider is "tube synergy." What are the other tubes in the pre-amp circuit?  The next stage in the Willsenton is two 6SN7s each driving a 300B which drive 845 output tubes.  I've found mixing and matching the 12AX7/5751/12AT7 with certain 6SN7s can also make a sonic difference. 

My favorite 6SN7 in the Willsenton are Tung Sol WGTA brown base JAN.  Great combination of warmth, lots of detail and punch.  Sylvania WGTs, WGTAs and WGTBs are more mellow, less detail but have a lot of warmth.  RCAs are smoother, less detail, less warmth, but very neutral, linear frequency response and can stand a "hotter" 12AX7 to punch them up a notch.  Raytheon WGTAs and WGTBs are a touch grainy, think guitar amp in overdrive, and marry better with a softer V1 like the GE 5751 or a Telefunken 12AT7.   

I probably spend too much time swapping tubes in and out, but that is part of the fun of a good tube amp I guess. 

@trivema I think you might be on to something with the "too much gain" comment. I have noticed that I'm at 90dB spl with the volume control at only 9 o'clock. I found some used GE 5751 that I ordered from an eBay seller with a good reputation. He says they are tested, both sonically (matched) and electrically and are well within spec. Thanks for the tip @mulveling!

Just as a backup, I also bought some new Mullard Reissued 12AX7. So I'll have some things to try out and see if this beast can be tamed on the top end. 

I have to really thank everyone for all of the suggestions. I've read them all. And even if I haven't mentioned here, I have more options from your thoughts and thank everyone for taking the time. I'll have the tubes in this weekend and will post an update after I have some time to burn them in. 

G

I've got an assortment of 12ax7's and my suggestion for warmth would be NOS Mullard (IEC variety are less), Brimar (can be bought from Langrex in the UK for  a reasonable price), or if new issue the Gold Lion B749.  The reissue Mullards didn't do it for me.  I have used NOS Amperex as well and they tend to be a little more bright and detailed. I'll also second the NOS Matsushita made with the Mullard tooling. These are very good and  should fit in your budget.  I would try to stretch the budget a little bit because under $ 150.00 opens up a lot of options. 

VTS has the best stock of any tube supplier just need patience.

The Genalex are warm and rich, not bright at all.  

Should have said a pair of used Mullards are under $100 where I buy most of my tubes. He also warranty’s them. I bought a quad of used Mullard el34’s xf2’s from him almost ten years ago and played the hell out of them still pull them out every once in a while and they play well. I think he still sells a used quad of Mullard xf2’sel34’s that test high for under $400 or right at it. There not all going to be labeled the same. So good deals can be found. There are a lot of awesome tube dealers but they cost a premium and even there NOS tubes will red plate, never bought eBay tubes. 

What is wrong with Psvane 12ax7.

I use it in my phono stage instead of Sylvania 5751 than I used for many year. And I don't feel that Psvane is inferiors to this great 12ax7.

Buy a used Mullard that test as new, you can pick up one for under $100. RCA’s are fun and sound good, kind of in the middle between Mullard and Telefunkens. RCA’s are more of a guitar tube and sounds like it but still a nice tube. Telefunkens are very detailed, refined, either you like them or you don’t. The Gold Lion gold pin sound like they tried to copy the Telefunkens character. If you need a place to buy a used Tele pm me,

I agree with all this, pretty much :)
Used-tests-strong tubes, from smaller tube sellers with good feedback, is THE way to get good value for your money. If you go to big tube dealers, they’ll charge a huge premium, and their tubes aren’t always better. Some of these 12AX7's still have such large populations (most Teles, RCAs, Mullards), it’s crazy to pay big for ’em. A dud happens here and there, but a small tube like this won’t blow up your amp and speakers without LOTS of help from bad engineering elsewhere.

I’d say that reissue Gold Lions remind me more of Amperex (Holland) than Teles, but not far off either way (especially if you mean smooth plates).

Buy a used Mullard that test as new, you can pick up one for under $100. RCA’s are fun and sound good, kind of in the middle between Mullard and Telefunkens. RCA’s are more of a guitar tube and sounds like it but still a nice tube. Telefunkens are very detailed, refined, either you like them or you don’t. The Gold Lion gold pin sound like they tried to copy the Telefunkens character. If you need a place to buy a used Tele pm me, 

trivema,

I am pretty much in agreement on your assessment of 12AX7 tubes.  I currently run extremely expensive Telefunken ECC803S (the real deal) tubes in my phono stage.  It is a very dynamic and vivid tube, but, it is not for someone looking for a lot of warmth.  I like other Telefunken variants too.  I am also a big fan of the Amperex Bugle Boys; to me, they are warmer sounding than Telefunkens, but, they remain clear and reasonably dynamic.  I too don't particularly like Mullards.  In addition to being a bit "blah" sounding, in some applications they sound a bit "strange" (sort of phasey sounding).  

I don't really do tube rolling myself, but, I heard a few types when first choosing tubes for my phono stage and in other people's system.  I even tried some 5751s which sounded quite good, although I actually need as much gain as I can get so 12AX7s are a better match.  A friend brought around a big selection of the better tubes he had for me to try.  I liked the Telefunken smooth plates, which is why I went all in on getting the ECC803S when I could do it.

@spacecadet65 I bought a bunch of 12AX7, 7025, 5751 and 12AT7 NOS and a couple new production variants to replace a stock JJ 12AX7 that I also found “bright and strident” in a Willsenton R800i 845. The R800i uses one 12AX7 as the V1 signal tube in the preamp section so it has a noticeable impact on tone not withstanding a GFB design. 

The clear winners for “warmth,” which I would describe as enhanced bass response and rolled off treble are the RCA and Brimar black plates. The RCA is the much better of the two, the Brimar is smooth and warm to the point of sounding a bit mushy with lack of detail. The RCAs are warm, smooth and retain detail. A real stand out in my rig is the Raytheon black plate, it is warm yet linear with no high roll off, strong bass, clear airy treble and neutral yet present midrange and superb soundstage depth. Can you tell I really like it!? 

Of the remaining lot, in order of neutral, transparent to detail and airy I’d rank as follows:

GE

Mullard

Telefunken

Gold Lion gold pin from Russia

Sylvania 5751 black plate

RFT

Amperex Bugle Boy

My three favorites are the Raytheon black plate, Telefunken smooth plate, probably the most balanced linear and neutral of the bunch without losing any details, and the Amperex BB. The Amperex is in a class of its own for airy details and a much higher soundstage. The Raytheon has depth and detail with punch, the BB has more detail in the higher frequencies and the soundstage appears two or three feet higher. It’s a great jazz or modern well recorded Indie track tube. 
 

The biggest disappointment is the Mullard. Everyone raves about them online, but in my system, it is just average. Balanced, yes, linear, yes, but nothing special. 
 

It’s possible some of the strident edge is coming from too much gain. You might consider rolling in a 5751 or even a 12AT7 depending on speaker sensitivity. Just a thought.

Cheers,

@ spacecadet65

@ knotscott

Which JJ 12AX7 did you purchase?   The ECC83-S or the ECC803-S? 

I have use BOTH and found the 83S more balanced (warmer) than the 803S (analytical) on my Zesto Phono-Pre.

I spoke with the designer, George, who compared the 83S to many, many other tubes- including expensive NOS tubes, and sonically the 83S won (with a bonus - they are cheap $33 - Tube Type: 12AX7 Types (thetubestore.com)).  

In the future I may roll tubes, but I will never be without the 83S... not harsh in the slightest.

Find vintage Telefunken.  Pricey but None better I think.

https://www.audiotubes.com/12ax7.htm

If you’re not opposed to NOS, or used that measure well, try the Raytheon 7025.  A low(er) noise 12AX7 that I have found to generally produce a full sound that is on the warm side.  And they can be found for very reasonable prices. 

If you’re not opposed to NOS, or used that measure well, try the Raytheon 7025.  A low(er) noise 12AX7 that I have found to generally produce a full sound that is on the warm side.  And they can be found for very reasonable prices. 

Stay away from PSVANE. Look for the new Mullards or the Genalex, Gold Lion. They’re about $106 a pair on Amazon, don’t know how much on Brent Jesse.

@spacecadet65, of course you can afford NOS. try tungsram. head over to brent jessee.

i second matsushita.

you can try BEL aka "the indian mullard" NOS for $100 or less/ matched pair.
 

a friend a mine has brimar and mullard 12AX7 for an affordable price. message me for contact info. 

@knotscott i apologize i totally misread your post

Gold Lion after about 40 hours of break in. 

@cey You can buy the Mullard reissue almost anywhere that sells tubes for ~ $25 each/$50 pr.   Amazon, Ebay, Tube Depot, Viva, etc.,

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01J0HHXF8?asc_campaign=2b5a785186b501c352c95398a3440b1b&asc_source=01G906CFVNZ35AJ2JPV0Z6Y0B2&tag=namespacebran129-20

Call or email Brent Jesse but you are not going to get what you are looking for under $100 a pair, matched or otherwise.

I know residents of the USA are reluctant to buy Chinese but I have no hesitation in recommending Shuguang Black Treasure tubes as they are easily the best tubes I have used, including Mullards and Gold Lion.

NOS Brimar similar to Mullard.

OK. So I have to come clean... I made an impulse purchase. I’ve been enjoying THC edibles. And a few weeks ago I got an email about a Chi-Fi option. It is one of those "clones" that’s based on a venerable old model who’s patent has long since expired. So I bought a unit that is modeled on an old Matisse tube pre. It uses (2) 12AT7 and (2) 12AX7. I bought some new Mullard Reissues (12AT7), and I got a deal on the 12AX7 (new JJ). All from Viva Tubes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224885709348?var=523754766478

The preamp is shockingly well built. And sonically it is doing some very nice things. Very quiet noise floor, great open sound stage, and wonderful detail. But tonally, the balance is a bit thin, and the upper mids and higher frequencies are "shouty." So I’m looking for something a little more warm on the top.

On a Rogue Audio group I co-admin, I always joke that "JJ tubes go right into the trash" (Rogue ships JJs as stock for most small tubes). But even with those JJs, the Mullard reissues should lend some warmth. I don’t normally audition Chinese tube gear, but a few times I have and was surprised to hear a bright/lean tonal balance - sometimes even with warm vintage/NOS tubes. Like that "Darkvoice" tube headphone amplifier which has been popular for almost 20 years (!!) - I did not like it.

If your new component is just inherently a bit "thin" sounding, it could be hard to counteract. But if something is going to reverse it, short-plate British Mullard 12AX7 are it. Mine were Bogen branded short gray plates with either I61 or I63 date codes (I forget exactly which, now but they should be similar enough) - VERY warm and thick.

Go on eBay and buy from someone with good feedback.

I got a pair of Wurlitzer branded RCAs for about $70.

Mullard is the gold standard of unabashedly warm 12AX7 (and EL34, and...). Even the reissues are warm, but (in my experience) vintage British short-plates are probably the warmest & thickest sounding of all. Long-plate British Mullards are still vey warm, but a little more balanced and articulate than their later short-plates.

Brent Jessee has Matsushita made 12ax7 that are very similar to Mullard construction for $110 matched pair. They are listed as: “12AX7 / 7025 Selected Dynascan, Allied industrial or Red Tip Low Noise Japanese made” on his website.

Otherwise, Mullard reissue should work for you.

~15 years ago I had a pair of Japanese 12AX7 with a very sharply angled (45 degrees) top getter & flashing. It's a very striking feature - can't miss it. I think (pretty sure) they were Matsushita. The plates may look like Mullard and be made with that tooling, but the sonic balance of these tubes was VERY bright. I used them specifically to counter an Eico HF87 tube amp that was otherwise too warm when used with vintage Mullard EL34. They might be the brightest 12AX7 I’ve had, though they sounded very good in this one context, to "balance the see-saw".

Brent Jessee has Matsushita made 12ax7 that are very similar to Mullard construction for $110 matched pair. They are listed as: “12AX7 / 7025 Selected Dynascan, Allied industrial or Red Tip Low Noise Japanese made” on his website.

Otherwise, Mullard reissue should work for you.

OK. So I have to come clean... I made an impulse purchase. I've been enjoying THC edibles. And a few weeks ago I got an email about a Chi-Fi option. It is one of those "clones" that's based on a venerable old model who's patent has long since expired. So I bought a unit that is modeled on an old Matisse tube pre. It uses (2) 12AT7 and (2) 12AX7. I bought some new Mullard Reissues (12AT7), and I got a deal on the 12AX7 (new JJ). All from Viva Tubes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224885709348?var=523754766478

The preamp is shockingly well built. And sonically it is doing some very nice things. Very quiet noise floor, great open sound stage, and wonderful detail. But tonally, the balance is a bit thin, and the upper mids and higher frequencies are "shouty."  So I'm looking for something a little more warm on the top. 

In my profile system page there is a chart for NOS small signal tube ie 12au7,12ax7 etc. its very handy for what you're asking. note its labelled 12au7 but it's the same for 12ax7, 12at7,12au7.   

I agree looking into NOS 5751 tubes since I use a set in my preamp section. I would contact Brent Jessee for advice since he stocks many 12AX7 type tubes. He has some matched sets that are a bit over $100.

What preamp did you purchased? Maybe consider getting the lower gain NOS 5751 , they are more expensive than your under $100 price point, but it might be worth giving Brent Jessee a call he does have GE 5751 premium at $110 a pair , or GE 5751 greyplates at $150 a pair and see if they fit the bill for you. He does have other 5751s but they are more expensive.  I use 5751s in my Line Magnetic 518IA integrated as 12ax7s were a bit too much for my ears in it. On the otherhand I prefer 12x7s vs 5751 in my Finale Audio integrated.

I went from JJ EC803S to the Mullard new issue CV4004, and was pleased. Found them to be less bright and a bit warmer, but still lively and musical through the mids.