Second opinions — how have others (including non-audiophiles) helped you?
Have been building a system since December 2020, just about at a place where I can rest for a while. Very enjoyable process of researching, trying, listening. Last phase, room treatments, are just about done.
Along the way, it's been very useful to bring in other family members and some close friends to listen and tell me what they hear. Most are non-audiophiles. But what jumped out to them helped me recalibrate what I was attending to and listen anew.
I was really trying to listen critically — sometimes with checklists of qualities to pay attention to. But myopia is a hard problem to see around, if you will. In some very important moment (including speaker tryouts), they pointed to obvious problems which I was missing.
Here's one recent example. I had been trying to tame some bass peaks and loaded the front of the room up with panels. I got those peaks under control — tight bass, well placed imaging, natural sounding instruments. Then, I had my wife sit down, and in a couple of seconds she noticed that things sounded "constrained" and "missing air." I pulled a couple bass traps out of there and things opened up — "Ah, that's better," she said. As I sat to listen, she was right. Better reverb, more space, lightness.
That's just one example. My question to anyone wanting to share is how other people (including non-audiophiles) helped you improve your system.
This is one the best threads of 2021. The topic is intriguing and the responses have me thinking about things in new and different ways. Thank you folks! Seriously.
I can share a story where an audiophile helped me out. I was intent on trying a tube amp in my system. I found a good deal on the exact amp I wanted to try about 7 hours drive from my home. The seller and I discussed our systems and what we wanted to achieve and to his credit he advised me not to buy his amp. He claimed it didn't have enough power to drive my speakers. After trying a different (but powerful) SS integrated and realizing it just didn't come close to matching my separates, I realized that the tube amp would have failed miserably. I can't help but thank this lifelong audiophile who gave me such sage advice and gave up an obvious sale to boot!
You are lucky to have help enjoy that fact most people do not show much if any interest at all in good quality music and definitely do not even notice changes in the sound nor do they really care to even listen to quality music we are a rare dying breed i think.
@stevewharton great reminder that the emotional reaction is a big clue about where our system is, evolution-wise. Alas, it only tells us “yes” or “no.” Still, that’s helpful.
I've had some success with friends and family members providing constructive feedback
I've also has those that thought the plan was to sing along with the music or have a conversation during an instrumental solo
As MC has mentioned many times critical listening is a learned process
What I found that helps is to play material that is preferred and enjoyed by the listener, which provides them the advantage of reference
I great example my youngest Son is 27 he enjoys blues and funk
My reference material for him is usually SRV, Robert Cray and the RHCP
I upgraded my DAC and gave him a demo
After the first song I said what do you think
And he was quit and slowly forming his response and he said I'm sorry Dad I'm not sure how to frame it but I'm having an emotional experience with this music
I've listend to this song a 1000 times since I was 12 years old and I've never experienced it like this
As he spoke his eyes were moistening and I was delighted that he could feel something in his soul from the music
I thought later about the words he used, emotional experience
That's what happens when we're in the pressence of true art, it taps our emotions and makes us feel something
I felt that my system brought the listener closer to the art
And for that both the consumer and the artist have benefitted
"You were right i react too swiftly sometimes" As do I.
"It routinely produces drug-like levels of endorphins and occasionally tears of joy." Can't say I routinely find this, but I do know it's exactly what I am seeking. After all, who doesn't want to get high on their own supply?
Xenolith, that sounds like a sweet amp. I remember remarkably the decrease in noise with my Audiopax M 100s. MC is correct as to the "quiet" in analog. Sorry but the digital is just unsettling in some way. I can't quite get at the music. Terry9 helped me with some ideas about my Linear tracker. Much thanks. And Almarg, God rest his soul. Total respect for him, as he probably helped more people on here than anyone. But most of all, Silvio Pereira who rebuilt my pair of Audiopax amps that were badly damaged in shipping. They have the quiet that makes listening without fatigue such a pleasure.
Thank you, @xenolith for what amounts to your audio system CV! Wonderful. I don't want to introduce a detour to the OP, but "the recreation of the recorded event in our living room" is an idea I understand but it cannot, of course, be taken literally. The sound of an orchestra in your living room would have to be miniaturized; no one wants the Ramones in there, either; heavily produced multi-track recordings are not events but collages, and so what is to be produced by a system? Some kind of rendition-that-is-pleasing but not a "recreation." And EDM or ambient music, same thing. There are some ensembles that a system could be seeking to recreate -- a duo or trio, etc. But most people want their systems to do more than just create a holo-deck version of that limited menu of "recreate-ables." I do think there's something to the concept of "fidelity" -- a clarinet sounds like a clarinet in timbre and tonality and even spaciousness. But that is less than what some take to be implied by "recreation." Cheers!
But, language and concepts arise from and exist within, to use hilde45’s words, something pre-conceptual, pre-linguistic, i.e. a conscious backdrop or ’ground of being’. This is where our direct experience happens.
You are perfectly right for sure...
i called that after Owen Barfield, "original participation"...And your remark is perfect phenomenological observation...
I will only add that this "grounding" is the root of will for Schopenhauer, the root of feeling for the Romantics, and the root of thinking for Nietszche...
Then we understand each other.....My first reply was about the very important difference between the Cartesian duality and the Goethean polarity....
You were right i react too swiftly sometimes because i like discussion and with my retirement from work and confinement i even argue with my shadow....
"I apologize if my opinion has hurt your faith...." No harm done. I don't believe I have much faith to be hurt. As indicated above, I agree with your point that the development and refinement of our language expands our conceptual realm. But, language and concepts arise from and exist within, to use hilde45's words, something pre-conceptual, pre-linguistic, i.e. a conscious backdrop or 'ground of being'. This is where our direct experience happens.
I am only interested in Heaven IF my trusty Labrador is there..
Interestingly there are many words with no equivalent in another language...
Few artists and perhaps fewer scientists lack a muse or foundation...
As my sensei ( one of the inventors and refiners of Kaizen and the Toyota production system ) says: “ Everyone needs a sensei, even the change agent requires a change agent “
so I seek out others, rooms, systems, thoughts, tastes, etc... Normally I bring wine.
Forgive me, I was wrong. Previously I thought you were considerate, well mannered and good natured. Now I have see multiple occasions where you turn simple exchange into defensive argument. Enjoy your God. Enjoy your concepts.
If you consider a reply to your own post unconsiderate i am sorry...
But you must read your own post before judging my reply...
Anyway i apologize if my frankness sometimes can be a little rude....
But a polarity is NOT a duality....A polarity exist in the real world of phenomena, a duality is only a fact in discourse...
And God dont ask to us to let our brain sleeping...
I apologize if my opinion has hurt your faith.... I have my own faith also...
By the way i am first a passionate man and sometimes not considerate enough it is true, and i like discussion.... Then.....
My best to you from my heart and brain....
«Concepts can be the grave or the seeds of love, the choice is ours»-Anonymus Smith
"Before replying to a post arguing for your agenda read the post 2 times....And try to read about polarities in Coleridge...."
Forgive me, I was wrong. Previously I thought you were considerate, well mannered and good natured. Now I have see multiple occasions where you turn simple exchange into defensive argument. Enjoy your God. Enjoy your concepts.
Concepts are the baggage that doesn’t allow those who cling to them to pass through the eye of the needle. I don’t quibble with the polarity/duality distinction, but concepts require extension in time. To enter the kingdom of God you go naked and alone... no concepts allowed.
😊
Before replying to a post arguing for your agenda read the post 2 times....And try to read about polarities in Coleridge....
Myself i will go to the heaven where brain and heart speak together and where silence is no more only a mute habit...
Enjoy your nostalgic come back to naturism, in my nature living concepts surge like trees from the garden of eden...Concepts dont ask only for extension in time, they exceed time....They are eternity manifested in time....I call that timing laws....In room acoustic this right timing give me a 3-d holographic sound....
Alleluia!
By the way this parable ask for quitting all that a rich man want to keep: his useless leisure and pleasures, not his working brain...
My God never ask me to be stupid....Or a robot programmed by his scripture....
My God is a lover, a poet and a mathematician....He like acoustic and only speak to crowds picking the better spot.... 😁😊😁😊😁😊😊😊😊😊😊😉
I value the input of others for several reasons, principal among them being that I can't audition in our system the number of equipment that it would take to efficiently effect improvement in our system. I must rely on the kindness of strangers :)
The underlying predicate here is that strategic equipment matching can result in higher levels of convincingness with respect to the recreation of the recorded event in our living room...no less than the raison d'etre for us being here.
For me, the strategy of achieving the highest level of recorded event convincingness started with selecting a speaker with the highest potential to transmit the recorded event that I could afford and then build the system around the speakers in such a way as to prioritize transparency. The underlying predicate here being that convincingness is a function of transparency...I acknowledge that it is a function of other factors as well, but transparency is certainly a primary factor. I chose B&W Matrix 801 Series 2 with North Creek crossovers. These speakers were described by Louis Lipnick
in his Stereophile review
as "ruthlessly revealing". They're even more so with the North Creek crossovers. So this is exemplary of me acting upon the input of someone else.
In the interest of transparency, I chose Bob's Devices Solid Silver interconnects. Also in the interest of transparency, I chose Dodd Battery Powered Preamp. Being battery powered, it is dead quiet and having only one half of a dual triode tube and one capacitor, well two actually, one that is bypassed, in the signal path, it is extremely transparent. Stephaen Harrell in his 6 Moons review described the Dodd Battery Powered Preamp as having a "sunny disposition", by which he meant that audio details are highly illuminated, but at the cost of texture. So this was another example of me acting upon the input of someone else. I knew I could bring texture to the system with choices of tubes, capacitors and cables. I got the Dodd to both detailed and textured by using Voskhod 6N23P tubes. Thanks to Audiogoner petg60 for the recommendation of those. Yet another example of me acting upon the input of others.
Now to amplification: I worked with a brilliant builder who used a version of a design developed by Gary Dodd that utilizes 2 6BL7GT tubes as input and driver and 4 KT-77 output tubes per 90 watt, 75 lb. monoblock. They use all Dueland Cu-CAST capacitors and 1 watt PRP resistors. They are extraordinarily transparent amplifiers. By using the GT version of the 6BL7 instead of the GTA version, I was able to bring the system to yet an even higher level of convincingness. This was done upon the recommendation of the builder and resulted in increased vividness, flesh and organicness compared to the GTA. Input from others again.
Clean power is important for transparency, therefore I bought a Dodd Balanced Power Supply to run the system off of...also recommended from the builder. Amazing improvement in transparency.
Lastly, speaker cables. I chose Silversmith Fidelium because they have, justifiably so, been lauded by many here...again, acting on the input of others. They've been referred to in one way or another as the least colored speaker cables yet created...i.e. transparent. They really tied the system together :)
When you get right down to it, basically everything in our system was selected to some degree on the basis of input from others. And it's a stunningly convincing system. It routinely produces drug-like levels of endorphins and occasionally tears of joy. And I have the input of others largely to thank for this. Thank you others, couldn't have done it without you!!!
"Gut feeling and conceptualization are polarities in the human being...Not dualities... Polarities"
"it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God".
Concepts are the baggage that doesn't allow those who cling to them to pass through the eye of the needle. I don't quibble with the polarity/duality distinction, but concepts require extension in time. To enter the kingdom of God you go naked and alone... no concepts allowed.
I'm 70 and still learning to "hear" a good system. When I upgraded to an air bearing turntable I heard an immediate difference, a "loss" of high frequency. It was a day later that I realized that the "high frequency loss" was really a loss of distortion.
Of course, my wife is the best critic of the system. Also, it's second biggest fan, which is more than fortunate.
I doubt that the University of Salford's School of Acoustics is much into audiophilia, but they nevertheless made a major contribution. They provided the dimensions and specs for my listening room.
My wife has little interest in my audio hobby, so I usually don’t get into the details when I am upgrading or installing a tweak. Last week the Isoacoustics isolation feet I ordered arrived while she was at work. I installed them immediately and gave them a listen.I did all this while she was at work, not to hide the fact that I was doing it, that is just how it worked out. A few days later we were playing cards with friends in the kitchen with the stereo playing in the background. One of her favorite songs started playing and she started listening to the music. She looked over at me and said, "Did you change something with the stereo?" I asked why she would ask that and she replied, "Something is different, it sounds much better tonight." She was hearing the same thing I heard when I was critical listening after installing the Gaias. They made a profound difference in the sound of my system!
@audioguy85 Good for you. Not me. I need help expanding what I notice, from time to time. Even the best writers need a second pair of eyes, but if you're self-sufficient and happy, that's all that matters.
the notion that perception needs language to exist "adequately" (whatever that means) is, I think, a wrongful importation of the conceptual into something which is, if not completely pre-conceptual, at least pre-linguistic.
Reality is Alas! not a caricature...
Gut feeling and language are not dualities between which we must choose like between two competitive masters...
The integrality of ANY human experience ask for feeling and concept at the same times...
In acoustic experimewnts and experience it is evident like in human relations...
And the stories people are telling here about non-audiophiles speaks volumes for their fully adequate perceptions *regardless* of their ability to express or describe them.
The fact that my wife who think that my audio journey is an obsession is able to detect a positive change sometimes is absolutely not the proof that she could use her accurate feeling about sound for the sole guide.... She will not go very far with only his gut feeling.... Like most people walking blind already but pleased between different "upgrades" or "tweaks"....They called acoustical experience a "taste".... But acoustic is a science not a "taste"....To go passing a certain stage we need concepts to experiment, the ears opening itself to much more than to our own taste,but to acoustical new dimensions...
@boxer12 Enjoyed your response. I also enjoy tweaking, though since I'm still trying to discover the initial potential of my system, I feel like this is "pre-tweaking." It's like getting one's new car out on a straight rural highway and "seeing what she can do." Until one does that, one is still pre-tweaking, I reckon. Regarding "perfection traits" -- well, there's a way in which constant *worrying* is a psychiatric condition for audiophiles, and no one is better than audiophiles at confessing to it and claiming some shame. BUT, I love to play with the room, the stereo, etc. In a more forgiving spirit, the word for that is "tinkering," and it's a way of being involved with machines and systems that I have loved since I was a boy. I have no impulse to write it off as a "tic" of my personality. (Not that you said I should.)
@daj Exactly my thought -- the notion that perception needs language to exist "adequately" (whatever that means) is, I think, a wrongful importation of the conceptual into something which is, if not completely pre-conceptual, at least pre-linguistic. And the stories people are telling here about non-audiophiles speaks volumes for their fully adequate perceptions *regardless* of their ability to express or describe them.
Perception needs the processor, and language takes us into the conceptual realm. But there is also the immediate, gut level perception that needs no language. Language often gets in the way of and can distort the visceral, animal level, immediate experience of things.
Gut feeling and conceptualization are polarities in the human being...Not dualities... Polarities...
A duality is an opposition in language,a separating perspective; a polarity is constitutive of the complete phenomenon,a unifying perspective, like electricity and magnetism for example, or like day and night in Goethe color theory...
Then language NEVER get in the way, save if you let it do the thinking for you....
And you cannot explore consciously and in a systematic way the ACOUSTIC unknown country in audio experience with only your gut feeling at all...Sorry...
It takes also the possibility in us to put TAGS all along the journey, these tags are words and concepts...
I love God, Bach or my wife with my gut feeling but also with my brain...In silence or with poetry.... Each day his own and better with the two....
«When my wife kill me it is a duality, when i kiss her, it is a polarity, if she kiss me back tough»-Groucho Marx 🤓
No one helps me to listen at my home. I am single, temporarily with one house guest that is hard of hearing (he has commented that the music sounds nice), and I rarely have other people over. Most people I know want me to come to their house, I guess because they feel more comfortable there. They couldn’t care less about fancy audio equipment anyway.
The people that have helped me have been on this forum, by virtue of their experience and familiarity with equipment. Over the past year, I have come to realize that the advice is suited to different spending budgets, and while it is often recommended to “listen to different gear and see what you like”, I don’t have much patience with having to pack if up and send it back if I don’t like it. Also, I don’t go to high-end audio dealers because I likely won’t buy there (I expect a mark-up due to the overhead they must cover) and I don’t want them to feel like I am wasting their time.
I’m not all that fussy, so I prefer to research and rely upon positive reviews to tell me what might be best. I expect non-ideal purchases to be part of the learning process, and I don’t tend to sink a lot of money into gear if I end up under-impressed. In any event, I do appreciate the advice I have received from others on the forum.
We cannot perceive adequately a phenomenon for which we have no concept whatsoever...And further we cannot improve our perception of this phenomenon if we cannot even name it..."
Agreed, more or less. Brain architecture, if it's not there there is blackness, void, nothingness, non-experience. Perception needs the processor, and language takes us into the conceptual realm. But there is also the immediate, gut level perception that needs no language. Language often gets in the way of and can distort the visceral, animal level, immediate experience of things.
+1 steakster for: "He believed that clean power, quality cabling and vibration control were fundamental building blocks."
I couldn't agree more. That & room treatments (which you also mentioned) can turn a good system into a great one.
IRT the topic: I love music & usually have the luxury to listen a few hours a day. It's important to me. IMO there is a perfection trait audiophiles have. Most of my friends are non audiophiles & are complimentary of the music system, but more than one has stated that I listen to music differently than they do. My wife is also a non audiophile. She once asked me when I was in one of my tweak modes (this time it was machining feet out of different materials & configurations); Doesn't it sound good enough? That made me laugh... but for her (& most people) that's true.
Unfortunately, my mom lives several states away. My son is across the hall in our house though. He's pretty good with words...at least good enough that I can understand whether what he is hearing fits or doesn't fit with what I'm hearing.
@calvinandhobbes That's great that you have two close family members able to help. Are they particularly good with words? I find the vocabulary to be very vague but sometimes people not using that jargon use metaphors or describe what they're hearing with whatever they can come up with.
I've found that some people inherently have good listening skills for discerning differences. For people around me, I've found that my mother has a particularly sensitive ear. I think my son does as well.
Despite not having listened to a whole of high-end audio, my mom can hear something and describe what she's hearing exactly as what's in my mind. I think people that have those skills for discerning differences, especially if they are not audiophiles that get all caught up in what the equipment "should" sound like are very helpful for overcoming the confirmation bias of thinking something might sound better or even different when it does not.
My wife is not into audio equipment at all, but by observing her responses to what's playing, I can learn a lot about the sound quality of the equipment that I'm testing in my system. She seems pretty attune to harshness. If she says 'your music is too loud', I will see if my actual volume is loud or not. If my music is on at a low volume level, I can tell that a digital component has some level of harshness (perhaps due to jitter or analog noise coming into the system). Also, if she starts singing to music that she likes, I can tell that equipment is doing in terms of being able to "follow the tune".
FWIW, I've been putting together a digital front end and my choices seem to all be trending in the right direction on this 'spousal acceptance test'.
WiFi > Ethernet (WiFi turned off) Ethernet cable USB cable Addition of an Audioquest Jitterbug noise filter to the USB output DACs: Denafrips Ares II > Chord Qutest > Chord Qutest running off of a battery > Denafrips Pontus II
Phenomenal responses! Loving this! Please, keep them coming.
xeolith -- would love to hear more when you have a moment. millercarbon -- so glad you chimed in with such a generous response. I've benefited from many other recountings of yours; glad to hear you dilate on my OP. Thanks.
(And by the by, someone (maybe Guttenberg) said once that when one is listening critically to audio to alternate close focus with more peripheral attention. Take our your phone, check your email, browse a magazine, etc. How does the system sound when you’re not staring at it, so to speak? Often stories of great quality systems will be ones that call people over or startle them when they’re focused on other things. There’s something to cultivating a sideways glance.)
Thanks for the compliment, Mesch. Much appreciated coming from you!
Years ago, I moved to a new city and discovered that I lived near an audio reviewer. I contacted him by email and he graciously invited me over to his home. As soon as he turned on the music, a whole new auditory world opened up. It was immersive, expansive - and captivating. I’ll never forget it. Truly an ’aha’ moment. This became my reference. My stereo at the time was very nice sounding - but nowhere near its potential.
His mantra was that good SQ should be affordable. He only reviewed audio products that were reasonably priced. He believed that clean power, quality cabling and vibration control were fundamental building blocks.
He invited me over frequently when he reviewed new gear. I asked him what components in particular made his system sound so amazing. So, one day, we completely tore down his system - removing all tweaks. Slowly, we added each tweak, one by one, with a listening session in-between. After completely re-building the system, we realized that it was a cumulative effect. Everything mattered!
It took him years to assemble that system. Trying to find the best synergy. He also had a wonderful room that let his system breath. The sound stage was so large and deep that you could get out of the listening chair and walk a few feet into it. Kind of wonderful!
Later, I moved back to Los Angeles. By attending the yearly audio shows, I’ve been able to maintain a reference. Many of the exhibitors’ rooms are just okay. But, several rooms are phenomenal. Those are the rooms that remind us of what this hobby is all about. And what a crazy hobby it is! But, still cheaper and less frustrating than golf.
It’s the great conundrum and paradox of audiophilia: one needs to most critically listen to achieve a system that can be heard most sanguine and with aplomb.
Two other ways to achieve this: spousal commentary...won’t go into detail; all with one and possessing of of the bare minimum of sentiency understand this, and, careful application of the advice of others also so engaged with said pursuit...may go into detail later.
I have a sense that many people are much more experienced than mastering92 gives them credit for.
Indeed, and for sure. The main difference in my experience is they don't have the vocabulary to express what they are hearing. An awful lot of audiophiles have this same problem. But in terms of being able to hear and know what is better, hate to say it, won't be breaking news because I've said it before, but sometimes the worst listeners are audiophiles.
Normal non-audiophile people who just really enjoy music are the best listeners. One audiophile, his wife came up to me one night, made sure no one would hear, and said to me, "I could listen to this all night!" This told me yes indeed, his system is so analytical and causes so much listener fatigue even his own wife can't stand it. She helped me to know I am on the right track.
Another time an elderly man with two hearing aids told me no point sitting in the sweet spot don't bother with me I have 2 hearing aids! No sir, sit right here. Five minutes later he is gushing about the imaging saying he never dreamed his hearing aids worked so good!
This man taught me one, we do not hear according to how good our ears work but how good our brains work, and two, he knows the difference between hearing my system and hearing his hearing aids! Whole slew of audiophiles could benefit from these two lessons.
Another friend one time was really excited and asking about how one recording can sound so different than another? Like many he'd only heard music on systems that make everything sound the same. I'm telling him about all the various steps involved between performance and playback and we're playing different stuff and after one track he says you know that one seemed just a little, I don't know, more clear or real, than the others.
So I said well this is Audioquest label they have recording details let's see. And sure enough, this one track he picked was recorded direct to two-track. The others were all the usual mix-downs. So my friend who never did any critical listening noticed something many audiophiles would find pretty hard to hear, even if you drew their attention to it.
Another time Chris Brady is over, and yes this is the Teres Audio Chris Brady who made the bearing and motor in my turntable. So we have a nice listening session and towards the end as he is leaving he says that is one fine sounding system I am quite familiar with that record and that is the best I have heard it- and you know I believe it sounds better now than when I got here.
Which is something I had known for a long time. My system does sound better and better as it is played longer. But was good to hear such an experienced listener as Chris Brady heard it too.
I could go on and on. One of these experiences is even written up on my System Page. Deborah and Keith came over to hear my Moabs and during one song I very quietly removed the cable elevators. Deborah was listening with her eyes closed and opened them when she heard the sound stage collapse. The thing of it is, the way I did this she had no idea until the sound changed. And when she heard it was not at the end when the last one was removed but at the beginning when only ONE on ONE SIDE was removed!
Oh, just remembered! Should have thought of this sooner. This is a biggie! One of the biggest ever!
This was back when I was listening to records and CD just about equally. Was just beginning to be enthralled with vinyl but still able to enjoy digital. One night after playing a record my wife says, "It's so quiet." I thought she meant the vinyl. It was very clean, zero groove noise. Typical audiophile way of thinking.
She says, "No, not that. They're all quiet. Even the noisy ones."
This really got me curious and so I kept asking questions. Eventually we got to what she was trying to say: the "noise" in digital is woven inextricably into the music. The whole thing is noise. With records there can be the occasional noise of a tick or pop or whatever, but all the rest is music. With digital the whole damn thing is noise!
One of the deeper insights in all of my experience, and it came from a non-audiophile listener. They are way better than we give them credit for.
I am not surprised by the the experience with your wife. When treating a room one often over treats and then finds that one has to 'dial' it back. Somewhat like tone control use ( I lack these). Two sets of ears are better then one. I often use my wife's as well. She has better upper register hearing, having much to do with the 'air' within a recording.
You have done a great job with your system. I am impressed.
Completely agree, hilde! I call it the "partner test": if my partner, who enjoys music a lot, but is not a hobbyist, could not hear an upgrade, I'd start to think I was "squinting" to see a difference to justify the expense. If it's an improvement subtle enough to require "trained ears" to hear it, I'm happy enough to get it, but I don't want to pay much for it. (Subtle improvements might generally be the only ones available at the outer reaches of the hobby, but most of us aren't there.)
I once immediately moved on from a 3x$ CDP upgrade, when the "improvement" only seemed audible with concerted effort, on some tracks. As you suggest, I find the same thing with wine: people can actually taste a lot, and appreciate excellent samples, even if they claim to not know anything about wine. They can't identify the vineyard by taste, but neither can I. (PS: Reductio ad absurdem and Hume in one day -- you're elevating the discourse around here!)
I read an article long ago which pushed back against the idea that people had lost most of their sense of smell. What researchers discovered was that people lacked the language to designate what they were experiencing, and that with some training in olfactory vocabulary, their sense of smell seemed to improve. Of course, their senses were fine -- what improved was their communication about their senses. And as any wine expert can tell you, this can feed back into their ability to discriminate. Hume wrote about this long ago, by the way.
Very deep observation indeed...
We cannot perceive adequately a phenomenon for which we have no concept whatsoever...And further we cannot improve our perception of this phenomenon if we cannot even name it...
It is true in audio threads where basic phenomenon are not adequately described because they are not rightfully conceptualized and not rightfully named...
I have a sense that many people are much more experienced than mastering92 gives them credit for. They need some direction as to what to pay attention to and how to describe it. After all, people already use their hearing quite carefully to get around in the world and most love music. They have a lot of practice in careful listening. What they need is some direction from audiophiles about how to describe what we're especially interested in. That's the point of my post -- to ask how people who have been able to address your concerns (with or without your help) have helped you improve your system.
I read an article long ago which pushed back against the idea that people had lost most of their sense of smell. What researchers discovered was that people lacked the language to designate what they were experiencing, and that with some training in olfactory vocabulary, their sense of smell seemed to improve. Of course, their senses were fine -- what improved was their communication about their senses. And as any wine expert can tell you, this can feed back into their ability to discriminate. Hume wrote about this long ago, by the way.
You can always get a valid response or comment from a non experienced ear. In the end if they are drawn in to it you are on the right track and leave you wandering if not interested. Spouses are getting used to it and have good reactions in changes. You only have to play the right tracks.
I agree that many who have never experienced a “better quality audio producer” whether headphones or a full room system tend to be unable to discern minor nuances of the presentation since, I believe, they are pretty immersed in just the total quality of the experience compared to what they commonly employ for music. I usually find that with some directed questions on my part certain individuals can absolutely start to hear differences and learn the vocabulary we tend to use in this hobby. I have had successes and failures... Sadly a couple of my successes possibly blame me for their current personal immersion in this crazy hobby, or at least their significant others does ;)
Most people listen to music as a source of passive entertainment. They don't take it seriously. I'm told it sounds amazing...but that's it. Give a random person 2 pairs of headphones to try and they will say the sound is the same. That's because they aren't listening for differences.
As for the audiogon forum, I have received some suitable feedback. Folks here are knowledgeable and polite, but there is the odd bad apple every now and then. Inciting conflict on a forum is not going to make life better for anyone lol.
Show offs who talk about spending x amount of money are especially annoying.
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