Does this streamer maker have objective proof Roon degrades sound quality? Actual measurements that prove degredation of the signal? If not, I would not put so much faith in anecdotal evidence. What makes this streamer maker the barometer of excellence? Does he have the golden ears? Or is his hearing as flawed as everyone elses? Is his system perfect?
I won't make the case for Roon being the best sounding software ever. Assuming everything is bit perfect and there are no filters coloring the sound, there are many candidates for that title. If you personally like Roon, I would not let someone's subjective opinion sway your feelings. If you want to try something different, implement HQPlayer within Roon.
Innuos’s own Sense sounds better than Roon on my Zenith 3. Much better. I also just learned Roon sounds just OK. I love the features and such of Roon, but the sound could be better.
Roon folks firmly believe, or rather state, that they will not take sides in the Great Argument on SQ. However, for some reason, they keep tweaking their algorithm with most of new versions release. For example, the upcoming version of the 1.8 that is currently on Beta says among others:
Improved buffering and caching for streaming content
We’ve made changes to Roon’s buffering and caching infrastructure when playing streaming content. The new implementation is designed to use a lighter touch when interacting with your network and internet connection, making streaming less intensive for your Roon Core.
I prefer to listen for myself. I recently implemented Roon and have not detected any degradation in signal quality. What exactly is it that you personally are hearing (or not hearing) that needs to be "fixed"?
Roon has a user forum, you might try taking your "issue" there. They might be more likely to "listen" in on their own forum.
I did some testing a while back: Roon vs audirvana. In the past, audirvana was the leader of streaming software IMO and during my month of testing, I thought both sounded similar, but the interface was much better using Roon.
Everyone here is expressing their experiences and opinions. Here are mine:
1. I sold my InnuOS Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB with an Intel NUC10i7 with 32GB RAM and 256 GB M.2 SSD running ROCK. Now my system doesn’t crash Roon, doesn’t crash trying to DSP, is reliable and with super SQ. I saved thousands and am thrilled. My opinion is based on my observations and experiences is that these vendors of expensive Roon core servers are highly overpriced and have a high bar to beat over the SQ and low cost of a NUC running ROCK.
2. I have experienced zero issues with SQ with Roon. I would look at your systems power regeneration or conditioning, your systems EMI and RFI contamination and other factors. I don’t know what Roon Core server you are using now. But you can order all the things you need to make a fanless Roon server from Amazon and try it. Compare your NUC to your old or current server. If you don’t like the NUC, dismantle it and return it for a refund. Easy with no risk.
I use a Zenith MKII running Sense in my listening room. I also run Roon core on a Mac mini for whole house stereo. I can also run Roon in my listening room via my PS Audio DirectStream DAC with/ Bridge II. A/B testing Sense and Roon, Roon SQ is good; Sense SQ is A LOT better. Sense sounds more natural and the music is more full bodied with a wider soundstage.
I can’t characterize Roon’s SQ as being degraded and I was fine with it until I tried Sense. For critical listening I plan to stick with Sense - unless the Roon SQ matches or better’s it. For whole house stereo to powered speakers in my home, Roon works fine.
I expect any quality issues someone experience with Roon are setup issues. A while ago I compared bit-streams passing through Roon. There was 0 degradation. It is sending out bit perfect, it cannot be negatively affecting the sound.
Improved buffering and caching for streaming content
We’ve made changes to Roon’s buffering and caching infrastructure when playing streaming content. The new implementation is designed to use a lighter touch when interacting with your network and internet connection, making streaming less intensive for your Roon Core.
This could really help me because I notice some recent ROON stoppages in playback that is network related. I have a very busy home office network with at least 10 servers and PC's plus other family entertainment devices.
Tried Roon a couple of times, but found Audirvana on a stripped down NUC just sounds noticeably better. Roon does look better though, but then again I am not looking at the sound.
I can't definitively state that Roon sounds equal to/better than all the alternatives mentioned here as I simply haven't tried them all, but I have A/B'ed Roon against Audirvana playing both standard res and hi-res files on a M1 Mac Mini and found zero difference in SQ. I also once used a player called Pure Music that I picked over Audirvana for SQ and didn't consider Roon a downgrade at all when I switched. In fact, I wouldn't have switched if I had detected a lesser SQ.
I have tested SQ of Roon (hosted on remote Roon rock NUC) vs files or Qobuz streams played direct from the same local network bridge. Absolutely zero SQ difference.
I recently added a roon nucleus, switching from mconnectHD, streaming from Qobuz to my Bricasti DAC. There is no question that roon sounds different - and according to my sensibilities WORSE: muffled, with a loss of detail, ambiance, and nuance. I am not a happy camper.
It would appear to be equipment dependent. In my case, I was a subscriber to Roon and, out of curiosity, tried streaming the same file using Lighting DS (Auralic’s software). I dropped Roon the same day. Incidentally, I was running Roon Core on a higher end Mac Mini solely dedicated to it with a solid state drive and 16GB ram. I wasn’t using Roon to upsample or process in any way - it was a true straight shoot out. If I had been, perhaps I would have gotten different results. Regardless, the reduction in sound quality was unacceptable. I have heard indirectly that Auralic has tried to address this recently such that Roon might sound better now on my gear. I no longer have interest in spending the $ to find out as LDS works well too.
Sure glad I do not use streaming as a source for critical listening or use a server.
I stream for finding new music and artists. I want my stream to sound good but I am not going into the weeds looking to match the sources I have in analog and cd.
I don’t quite understand your post? Not too long ago you started a thread asking, ‘Wondering what improvements I can made to my streaming end’
If you’re not interested in learning ways to improve streaming sound then why post here or even start a thread? I’m sorry to say but there no magic wand available that will transform your Node 2’s sound to analog or cd sound.
Does this streamer maker have objective proof Roon degrades sound quality? Actual measurements that prove degredation of the signal?
Objective measurements are a tool to get better sound quality but they don’t constitute better sound quality. Measurements do not represent sound quality in its totality. In the end if it sounds better, it is better. Or if it sounds worse, it is worse.
I’ve done A/B comparisons between Roon and using the Lumin app that works with my Lumin Streamer / DAC. I’ve used 2 different cores, both laptops that when being used as the core we’re running no other programs, they were hardwired to the modem. I’ve had both cable internet and now fiber optics, highest speed / bandwidth tiers available.
As another member mentioned in this thread, I wouldn’t say the sound is degraded when using Roon but it doesn’t sound as open, full bodied. The highs are a little harsher and the mid / lows a little less defined. Not a huge difference but enough of a difference that I use the Lumin app which I’m not a big fan off. Roons interface, ability to play albums in order, create personal playlist / stations based on your musical tastes is way better. Along with the DSP functionality which is awesome.
Unsure why there is sound quality difference, guessing both the Lumin app and Roon are providing the same bit quality. I’ve been on the Roon forum and a Lumin representative is active and adamant both provide the same level of bit quality.
Maybe if I went all in and had a dedicated standalone core but I can’t logical understand how that would provide any better performance than a adequate laptop running nothing else but Roon, no way Roons requirements should overload the laptops capabilities with no other programs running that I can see. If sound quality is better with just the Lumin App and nothing else in between the streamer / DAC seems like putting a core in the middle of that and having it potentially lowe the quality / performance is silly.
I’m not knocking Roon at all, I think it’s a great product. Those however that are stating anyone who hears a difference in SQ when comparing Roon to other available streaming options are wrong, my ears say different. Could it be my set up absolutely it could but on paper my set up is more than enough to provide optimal performance for Roon to sound its best.
@markmuseDo you have an Android device? Or could borrow one? If so, try installing BubbleUPNP on it, it’s very cheap, then try streaming from Qobuz within the app to the Bricasti. I think you’ll find it’s pretty good.
@richtrussNo android device here. mconnectHD sounds good, better than roon. With mconnectHD streaming Qobuz to the Bricasti there is a wealth of detail and nuance, much better dimensionality and connection to the music. Heck, even Omnia Receiver through a NuPrime Stream9 > Bricasti leaves roon in the dust. I do prefer roon's interface and abundance of information. But sound quality first.
I’m using a Lumin product, streaming from a Synology NAS.
I found that I needed much updating to my music library, but am willing to “do the work”.
There is a native UPNP server app that runs on the Synology.
I looked at the rune set up and found it unnecessarily complicated, and I’m an IT person. Nothing in the sound path.
Thanks for the clarification and glad to hear you’re happy with the improvements. In my system, digital streaming and files (ripped CD’s & DSD) playback has transcended Vinyl.
What is going to sound best depends on the synergies with your existing equipment.
My system is very revealing, IMO, and I found my Innuos Zen MkIII sounded much better with Roon running in experimental mode (one of the options they give you) than running Innuos Sense. It is a little glitchy running it from my iPad, occasionally loses the server for a minute and sometimes skips tracks, but the SQ has everything else beat - more detailed, more top end, more dynamic, more transparency, more presence.
This was my second time around with Innuos, in about a year, but I did notice the Roon Squeezelite Experimental mode is much more stable this time compared to the last time. Almost flawless
Objective measurements are a tool to get better sound quality but they don’t constitute better sound quality. Measurements do not represent sound quality in its totality. In the end if it sounds better, it is better. Or if it sounds worse, it is worse.
Agreed. If Roon sounds worse to the streamer maker, then to them it is worse. We all have personal truths. We also benefit from experience, which requires an open mind to try different things. If the OP wants to decide for themself if Roon degrades sound quality, they can try different software and compare. They (and anyone in general) would be better served by doing so than taking anothers word for truth.
My ROON Core is located in my ROON Nucleus Rev B. All it does is allow me to choose between which music on Tidal or Qobuz that I would like to hear. The Nucleus has its own linear power supply, and has RFI eliminating filters front and back, which makes for a pretty clean signal before it travels into my Chord Hugo M Scaler and then to my TT2 DAC. Does it sound as good as any another streaming software being run through a dCS Vivaldi stack? Probably not. But it does sound as good as most high end CD transport or vinyl system that I’ve heard. What makes ROON great is its convenience and ease of use. Quibbling about perceived sound quality issues up in this rarified audiophile air is mildly interesting, but not the most important thing to discuss IMO. I don’t believe that the sound engineers at ROON are trying to cut any corners when it comes to providing the best product possible. But by all means if something sounds better to you, then use it and don’t look back.
Debate over the best sounding player software has existed since digital audio playback became more mainstream. Roon is just another contender in the game. I suppose its popularity has made it an easy target. I don't see nearly the same discussion over the sound quality of Lightning DS, Lumin OS, Aurender Conductor, and other proprietary software.
What is more agreeable is that Roon is one of (if not the best) library management tools available. It seamlessly allows a user to access both local media and streams from Tidal and Qobuz in an elegant and user-friendly way.
@dougthebikerI also noticed the Roon experimental version sounded really good. I used it until I inserted a Matrix SPDIF-X between my Zenith MKII and DirectStream DAC to use i2s.
For some reason, the experimental version will not recognize the Matrix. The SQ with i2s is superior to USB to my DAC. With Sense, I can take advantage of squeezelites superior SQ via i2s.
Disclaimer: those who believe digital is zeroes and ones, “bit perfect” know-it-alls experts, either it works or does not, please do no read, and ignore:
Roon network protocol,RAAT (Roon Advanced Audio Transport) is somewhat primitive, old, and been around for a while.
While it has been patched over several software updates, still a bit long in the tooth. I have heard from people well versed in network topology that it imposes very strict / hard demands to various network components comprising the streaming audio chain, with potential impact to SQ. Stressing “potential” here.
So here is that. I have a very strong feeling Roon folks know this, and likely address it in the next couple of years. Here is to RAAT 2.0!!
I think they already are addressing it. There is a beta that lifetime subscribers have been invited to try. Most of it is cosmetic or has to do with the UI, but one paragraph in the notes says this;
We’ve made changes to Roon’s buffering and caching infrastructure when playing streaming content. The new implementation is designed to use a lighter touch when interacting with your network and internet connection, making streaming less intensive for your Roon Core.
Most folks running Roon cant compare it to something else so they wont know how if affects SQ. Roon on an Innuos server in Experimental mode easily bests Roon.
My experience is Innuos Sense is much better than Experimental mode, big drop in noise floor.
Used to just have a node 2i outputting to a mc2500 and mc 75 monoblocks, Sonus Faber speakers, and Rhythmic subwoofers.
Then decided to get a Small Green Machine transport for Roon core, a Sonore UltraRendu as a player and a Mytec Dac+...
...all I can say is the the sound quality took perceptive leaps in improvement.
According to several posters here on this thread, seems there’s "ROON for IMPROVEMENT" in its sound quality. I have not yet tried ROON, but I have good digital equipment to run it on: A MELCO Network Switch, their Model S100, for Audio Streaming (it is connected between my xfinityComcast Cable Internet Modem and my MELCON1 A EX High-Res Digital Music Library). The Melco N1 A EX music library is, in turn, connected to my Holo Audio MAY KTE DAC via USB. I’m using an iPad to control the MELCO LIBRARY, which incidentally DOES have provision for running ROON on it.
So, perhaps the quality of Internet Connection you have (mine is Comcast High-Speed) as well as the equipment you run ROON on may be the determining factor in Roon’s sound quality. With my present setup, I access Qobuz and Tidal directly, using my iPad, and the Melco streams it to my DAC. I am tempted to subscribe to Roon’s services, for its convenience - but I certainly don’t want the sound quality of my system to be degraded by Roon, if in fact that is a problem.
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