You’re not going to have to replace tubes every couple of years.
8k probably won’t get you too much further than you are with the PL. The rest of your gear probably works great with the PL. They're not bad amps for the money matched with the right speakers. I had your model amp in my rig for a while and then bought an EVO400 power amp so I'm familiar with the brand although I've moved on from the EVO400 a while ago.
When you upgrade one thing it can lead to finding other weaknesses in all of the other gear/cables, etc of the rest of your rig. Unless you’re committed to addressing everything along the way and the increasing expense, I’d recommend staying with what you have and perhaps dialing in the room.
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@vuch I whole-heartedly agree that PL makes a pretty good amp, for the money. I also share your thought/“warning” regarding the ever present upgade-itus audiophiles tend to be aflicted by. That said, I’ve enjoyed the PL integrated for 7 years and figure if I don’t upgrade from it now, I never will.
I can see by your posted system that you are way further down the path to audio nirvana than I will ever be…what an awesome system you’ve put together!
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@ezstreams, thank you for the kind words. However, don't be distracted by equipment in regards to audio nirvana.
I also have a mid-fi rig that I've put less than $1k into getting it off the ground this last year. I have it set up using all that I've learned regarding speaker placement, listening position, component matching, isolation, etc. I really enjoy that rig almost as much as the main rig! It's crazy but true! The rig definitely shows its limitations as the volume increases but as long as I keep it within its limitations the sonics are very enjoyable!
The other benefit is that I can put any pressing quality album on the turntable and it sounds good. With the main rig, a bad or average pressing sounds terrible so I have to take care to obtain the best sounding pressings for the main rig. That can be a real pain instead of just going to a record store and buying an album without thinking of pressing quality.
I believe that setting up the stereo properly and addressing the room may account for 50% of the sonics quality! Addressing these issues can make you fall in love with your rig all over again!
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@vuch i couldn't agree more with your observations. My secondary systems are all capable of providing a large portion of musical enjoyment to be certain. Do they do everything my primary system can do? Certainly not. But in some regards, with the right music, they can do things I might enjoy as well or even more than my primary system.
With attention to detail (and especially component matching), you do not need to spend a fortune to obtain a wealth of musical satisfaction. In many ways, working with a budget and trying to max out performance at a price point is a heck of a lot of fun!
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Merry Christmas everyone!!
@vuch and @corelli thank you for those words of wisdom. I know my system placement and room treatment is far far from what would help get the most out of my current equipment. Unfortunately, I don’t have the opportunity for a dedicated listening space much less room. It’s in a large shared recroom that includes a pool table and play area for my now 6 grandchildren (wildest is 7 and youngest born 5 days ago). Keeping it protected from the grandkids is a primary objective of placement.
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Excellent selections are offered herein. I'd suggest having a look at the Kinki EM-1X integrated amp, which would use about half of your budgeted funds.
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I’m currently using a Primaluna Dialogue HP Premium integrated amp which I’ve enjoyed for many years. Here’s where the “fiscal conservative” part comes in; this amp has 8 power tubes. Even with Primaluna’s great low tube stress design concept, I’m not looking forward to replacing power tubes every couple years with my retirement bonus listening time. Also, I’d like to get additional damping factor bass control than my current amp provides. I love the tube midrange and treble range sound, but would like an upright bass to sound more like a wood instrument (hard to describe in words) and hear more natural note attack and decay
The Yamaha A-S2200 ($4500) or the A-S3200 ($8000) are both tubey sounding SS (no tubes) amps with the higher damping factor, tubey midrange, etc, a nice step up from that primaluna. The Yamaha sound guys take a long time to try and make sure their stuff sounds as close as possible to the instruments they make. The sound of these amps changes significantly after about 120 to 150 hrs of burn-in (They don't ship from the factory burnt-in).
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Sounds like you’re interested in a low maintenance solution, so reliability and servicability are important criteria along with sound quality. I’m not a huge fan of the esoteric cottage shop brands because of having tried to find service for exotic gear in the past. The words ’ephemeral businesses’ come to mind. It’s in the nature of the hobby, I suppose. My shortlist would include these three:
Luxman 505Z/507Z Heavily rooted in the analog world, the only real question is if the $3,000 value add is there on top of the $5995 price of the 505Z. Otherwise, they are impeccable sounding, fully featured and gorgeous. Still need a DAC/Streamer.
Mark Levinson 5805 on sale for $6500, is world class in every regard. Stereophile Class A rated and lacking nothing. 125/250 W/ch, massive power supply, MM/MC phono, great DAC, w/MQA, aptX Bluetooth, dedicated HP amp. It’s all there.
McIntosh MA-252. If you like the retro-MC-275 styling, and fancy a hybrid tube front end / 100W/Ch Class AB power amp with bulletproof build, here you go. Just bring your own DAC/streamer. At $4995 there would still be room in your budget.
Personally, the MA-252 puts a grin on my face, it’s just so 😎 cool. And the 505Z? Who ever really regretted buying a Luxman? But the Mark Levinson, though, is such a value, so complete an offering, I’d be hard pressed to walk away.
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Find a used Luxman 509Z. I see them as low as $7500. I went through the "retirement gauntlet" over the past 2 years. I tried many integrated amps. Prices ranging from $4K to $20K. The 509Z was the best to my ears.
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Tube replacement costs are simply a part of ownership of tubes. You have to weigh is it worth it to spend $8k on an unknown.
Tubes aren’t ultra expensive. So I don’t understand why anyone would consider giving up tubes for $500 every 3 years versus spending $8k on something else. So the cost of tubes is $150 every year. That’s a fiscally conservative cost in my book. What am I missing?
If you simply want something new I get wanting something else. But that doesn’t mean it will be better.
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@re-lar-kvothe thank you and the many others who recommended the Luxman 507/509 integrated. Lots of love it seems for them. @ghdprentice I am curious why you sounded so down on Luxman when you posted your thoughts earlier?
@coltrane1 I hear you and your point. In this “last significant investment” in my system, I’m looking to improve the sound quality as I tried (hard to do with words) to explain in my original post. If I can get the SQ I “desire” with an integrated that doesn’t require multiple power tube replacements over the next 20 years I’m planning on living and enjoying music, then that’s a winner!
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There are lots of different sounds available on the market. Well regarded companies have a wide variety of sound types. There are flashy "high end sounding", holographic, natural, overly powerful impactful, overly warm. At the center is natural and musical, sounding like the real thing. I understand different people are satisfied by different sounds, although I think there is a propensity as we get older for most (but not all) to gravitate towards more natural and musical. Tinny high resolution systems tend to wear on experienced ears. I try and allow for variation, but some brands fall outside of serious sounding audio and to me solid state Luxman falls outside that circle. It sounds like it looks. Sparkling analytical with a serious under represented midrange and nearly devoid of rhythm and pace... the heart and soul of music. Each time I listen to them... and I am including their very expensive pieces I am very disappointed. I try to give good advice... the kind that will hold up for most people over time as they learn and change. It looks just great... but to me it is the kind of sound that is just too far from natural to get excited about and so I try at least case some doubt, so that if someone is inclined, they listen a bit longer to it, so as to be really sure that is what they want.
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CODA, Ayre, BAT, or Hegel H390 used/H400 new/H590 used.
I understand your cost constraints, but a separate preamp and amplifier will outperform the integrateds......but probably about $10,000 for the combo
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A lot of the suggestions I have owned, and I would not consider them a good replacement for tubes, except 1 which may have not been mentioned.
I can recommend the item but with a huge caveat. It is an incredible sounding Interated. Warm and buttery smooth with the first 90 watts Class A. It is the KRELL K-300i.
Krell K-300i integrated amplifier | Stereophile.com
Krell K-300i review | What Hi-Fi?
The reason I cannot fully recommend it is because today KRELL is a ___ show and maybe bankrupt and closing. There are used units that are 1/2 price online and maybe some dealers looking to unload their remaining stock.
If I wanted a tubey SS integrated I would get the K-300i and use these guys for any repair service. Krell Service and Repair | George Meyer AV
I used them to do a warranty repair on my K-300i for a pin that was stuck in the RCA connection. It was a cosmetic thing, but I wanted it officially fixed before I sold it. The repair shop said they can do anything on KRELL gear.
Krell k-300i integrated amplifier with digital board / DAC installed For Sale - US Audio Mart
BTW - I sold it to buy the KRELL DUO 175XD amp which is in the same lineup as the K-300i integrated. Never should have sold the 175XD amp.
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@ezstreams Congratulations on your retirement, welcome to the club. It is off golf season for me currently, so I am listening to my system about 12 hours a day, some critically, some background as I browse forums and sometimes post, like now, but it is a wonderful life.
Looks like I am much more productive than @wsrrsw , I get half of my nothing to do done at the end of the day. 
Plenty of wonderful suggestions in here, I am sure you would enjoy many of the recommendations given, and you will never know what an Accuphase or Coda integrated will sound like in your system until you try it, but I wouldn’t be so anxious to replace what you have based on the possibility of a few future tube replacements. Knowing what I know, which is half as much as half of the people in here:
First: I can’t speak to your integrated exactly, but I have the Primaluna EVO 400 pre, and I can tell you changing the tubes to older ones (NOS) from the ones supplied radically transformed it- it is not the same pre-amp at all. From memory I can’t confirm that the bass went from a bloaty ponderous flab to the tight defined tuneful bass I have now, but I recall resolution and clarity being transformative- I could put the stock tubes back in and compare just the bass if you are interested, but then this is a pre and not an amp so I don’t know if that information would translate. As some have stated in here call a reputable tube seller (mentioned in this thread) and get some advice- they might even give you re-buy back if it doesn’t work out.
Second: I didn’t see cables mentioned- but I skimmed the last 2 pages and didn't check your original post again, so I may have missed it- but you can get much better bass with upgrading your power cables/interconnects, so that may be an option.
Lastly, don’t think solid state amps are problem free- I have had issues and repairs with everyone I have ever owned- everything has a life. Even the reported wonderful, bullet-proof, efficient, and environmentally friendly class D amps- my Nord NC500’s went through both of the power supplies in 4 years- tubes can last longer than that.
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@ezstreams On the PL HP (had one) it’s only the two inside pre tubes (3/4) you need to ungrade for something fancier to alter sound.
@mclinnguy Half ot nothing. Who would have thunk? Please don’t overdo it!
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@mclinnguy thank you for your observations. If it’s not imposing, I would appreciate you testing to see if the NOS preamp tubes you now use did tighten the bass on your system (your system A looks and I’m sure sounds fantastic!). If you can only swap tube positions 3 and 4 as @wsrrsw suggests, that would be an extremely useful test (at least for me).
I really don’t want to go down the cable rabbit hole right now. I currently have mid level Audioquest and Morrow cables throughout (fiscal conservative 😂).
Again, thank you both for your time and thoughts.
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@ezstreams
Thank you- actually the system has changed so much this year -the amp I am using right now isn’t even listed in my virtual system yet.
It has been a while since I tested tube rollin’ in the EVO400 myself, so no worries, I needed a good excuse to experience the differences again.
Quick answer: Yes, absolutely the bass tightened up with my RCA Cleartops over the Primaluna stock 12AU7’s.
I still have the Prima Luna OEM 12AU7’s in the carrier spots on the sides (#1 and 6 spots) and I left in the 1960’s Mazda/Brussells f33 rectifiers for all listening. (I think that is what they are  ) And RCA Cleartops in the middle 4 spots. I listened to Buddy Guy’s - Blues Singer ’Lucy Mae Blues’ and ’I love the Life I Live’ which have always had a little loose sounding bass to my ears, and I recall it being quite bloomy in the past. I also listened to one of my favourite basstest tracks Holly Cole Train Song. Didn’t touch volume, or anything else, just turned off the pre amp, let it cool a bit, and changed tubes.
First I put in all 4 Primaluna 12AU7’s back in the middle 4 spots- Buddy Guy sounded MUCH louder, and fuller everywhere, and the bass bloomier/less tight- I had an urge to turn it down, I only lasted 5 seconds but clearly obvious-I quickly changed to Holly Cole. Surprisingly I didn’t notice this as much, I believe it was a little looser, would need to go back and forth again to be sure, but after I heard the additional sibilance in her voice it was hard to focus on the bass again!
I put in just the middle 2 RCA’s as suggested, and yes bass became much tighter and controlled- and the loudness I experienced was gone. And just as important Holly’s voice sounded less sibilant.
Putting back in the other 2 RCA’s in #2 and #5 positions to have all 4 back in front, bass was leaner again, but minimally so, perhaps half as much as the middle positions? so Warren was correct in the middle two positions made the most difference.
Now I am wondering if bass, while a little fuller and bloomier with the mix of RCA and PrimaLuna OEM’s compared to all 4 RCA’s might have been more even-keeled? Hmmm, would need more testing to determine a preference personally, but your question is answered and my curiousity satisfied.
As always, my system my ears, and this is with a Zavfino Silver Dart power cable into the back of this EVO400: YMMV- this is my result- pretty obvious actually.
And these RCA Cleartops are the only 12AU7 tubes I have experimented with so far. I planned to get more but after getting these felt the improvement was good enough, and decided to do other things first. Bugle Boys, Telefunkens may be nicer, and for your concerns tighter still in the bass, I don’t know. But Brent Jessee has these RCA Cleartops for just $39 each- so you could get all 4 for the price of one Telefunken!
Whereas a "rabbit-hole" powercord that could tighten up the bass this much would cost many multiples of this, methinks, so a tube experiment would be good bang for the buck.
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@mclinnguy that was over the top nice of you to run that experiment! It looks like he’s selling specially matched pairs of RCA Clear Top with side getter for $99/pair. I’m going to try tube purchasing and rolling those as an initial toe in the warer trial based on youy experiment results.
p.s., what does YMMV standbfor?
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Interesting…the RCA Cleartop 12AU7 I purchased from Andy’s Vintage Tube Services were pretty thin and bright sounding in my then Rogue RP1 preamp. I tried them in the Rogue ST100 amp as well and got exactly the same results.
Ended up selling them. The 12AU7 that worked great for me were Brimar CV4003, Gold Lion.
YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) - it’s all component/system dependent.
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@audphile1 Yeah, I could see that. If you recall about 6 months ago when I was searching for a warmer, thicker midrange sounding power cable and got the Audioquest Hurricane, as Squeeze/squeeze which is quite a bit cleaner and thinner sounding than Roon, combined with these RCA cleartops was a little thin and bright, even for me! As I love my details and transparency.
The gap has narrowed now between softwares, but Roon still is richer and thicker than squeeze/squeeze, so matched up with these thinner cleaner RCA’s I suppose that is why I don’t mind Roon 90% of the time of late.
Like I said I have yet to try another tube, heard good things about the Brimar’s and they are also on my list.
@ezstreams for sure along with the bass leaning and tightening which is what I focused on above, you may find the midrange/treble has leaned out too much as well- I suggest reading other threads for information and talking to Brent or Andy (I believe he only talks on Friday’s) for advice- I am a tube rolling rookie. But hey, you think power cables are a rabbit hole? Be careful with your tube appetite
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@ezstreams
You did read this, right? I see here in this you just have the 2 gain tubes, whereas my EVO400 has 4 gain tubes, so yes 2 is all you need. But I noticed this quote from there:
If you want to go to a "larger" tube like a 6550, KT88, or KT120 the result may be a little more "pop" to the music, and while the bass may appear to go a little deeper, it will not be as "round" as an EL34.
A little less round is what you are looking for, yes? It's also worth stating some of those bigger tubes can last 10,000 hours, reportedly.
There are plenty of PrimaLuna threads here on Audiogon, but after searching and if you don’t specifically find what you are looking for perhaps start a new thread regarding your particular issue/desire?
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Sorry to keep pummeling this thread, but just read this on Brent's website: Same amp!
"This is the original 1950s RCA black plate that will never be duplicated. This is probably the last time they will be offered at this price. Good supply now, but when they are gone..... Warm blackplate sound with a nice top end. MATCHED PAIRS ARE JUST $109.00. CLIENT COMMENTS: "Hi Brent, Wanted to give you an update. Tubes arrived just as you said they would. Thanks for being in the business you are in, and running it the way that you do. Changes in my PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP are not subtle. Tightened bass, liquid lush (but not syrupy) midrange! Increased height and depth to soundstage. But to me most importantly, the Beryllium tweeters on my beloved Usher BE-718 “Tiny Dancers” are now tamed! What was tizzzz is now sustained shimmer on cymbals. All this with only around 12 hours on the tubes. I suspect things will continue to change, and not for the worse. Thank you!! R.J." "
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I'm expecting the delivery of my Atoll IN200 evo (said to be much better / closer to the IN300 sig sound that ABA loved in his review) with the DA100 card in it to help consolidate my system also (audio refinement / yba separates). Fingers crossed that the new IN200 evo sound improvement is that significant and is enough with my 91db efficient ProAc Studio 148 speakers...
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I may be late to this party, and my thought is not an integrated but...
You could get a benchmark LA4 Pre and Pass Labs XA 25 for less than $8,000. The construction looks and feels bulletproof.
I have these driving my Rockport Atria IIs, sourcing from an Esoteric K-01xs.
You can probably find these available for home auditioning - also the reviews of these components are consistent and match my experience. If you just want to LISTEN great, but there is nothing to tweak or play with or tubes to roll!
I bought SS components these a few years into my retirement - but then got the "fiddling" bug and built an SET kit and then designed and built a PP fully balanced 6SN7-300B amp.
The XA25 is often back in the system though!
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