Retirement integrated amp for a “fiscal conservative”…..Part 1: I have a plan

no experience of AH myself, but several dealers I find credible are big fans.  Also, Lavorgna (Twittering Machines) review of X200 in 2022 was quite positive.

@daniel25 

That is probably the most efficient path! 

If an Integrated is your goal then regardless of what you end up with, a Hegel should be at the top of your list to audition. In your price range, no one is doing Integrates better especially if your desire is for a one-box solution. 

“I have the 83.6 dB sensitive non-graphene Joseph Audio Perspective speakers”@ezstreams

JA Perspective’s loves watts. Almost every demo I’ve attended at audio shows (last 7 years), his speakers were paired with Jeff Rowland’s amps or Integrated. And they sound phenomenal together. There is a Jeff Rowland Continuum S2 Integrated on sale here and it’s within your budget. If you call Jeff Joseph, he would very likely recommend Continuum S2 as well.

@mdalton thanks for the Atelier 13 Nashville hifi shop suggestion. I see the have an Audio Hungary Qualiton X200 on sale for $4,390, well within my price range. Anyone have any experience with AH amps?

@audphile1 thanks for the heads up on the PL INT250 listing.  I’m going to listen before I buy even if its with other equipment in different environments to at least get a sense (pun intended) of 1. My hearing capabilities and 2. As you, @kennyc, @daniel25 and others have said; try to distill what I hear from those experiences down to 1 or 2 amps to try out in my system at home  

@jsalerno277 I plan to keep my phono stage and DAC/streamer so I’m hunting for a traditional integrated amp.

@curiousjim I have the 83.6 dB sensitive non-graphene Joseph Audio Perspective speakers.  I mainly listen to jazz trios and quartets, but my music tastes and listening cover most genres except symphonic or large orchestra/bands which can overwhelm my speakers.

Ive turned over a few systems. Close but never fulfilled. I learned a couple important things that directed me towards my current system. By becoming honest with myself wants and needs(loosely interpreted), I began seeing path come into view with so many others all around. First and foremost... accuracy and musicality seem to be the spectrum we operate between and the right answer is personal choice/preference. If your like me one day I wanted all the details, layers, noises never heard before, the spacial setting of the recording.... another day I wanted the music to move me, don't bother me with all the details but with the emotion... what I realized is I'd never really ever ever heard any system that could give you each of these without some sort of sacrifice to the other... for me I had ro be honest if I went in one direction or another I would always miss, what I was missing, so.... I compromised and shot for something in the middle. That was the honest part. 

So now that narrowed down my sound preference now I had another problem... how the heck am I'm going to audition this all? And then I realized something... I cant!!! And I live in an area with half a dozen high end audio dealers within 1 hour drive, but that didn't solve demoing everything I read or watched a video on... not even close. What I realized is I was going to have to rely on others ears. So how was I going to select who to trust. Forums r fun but no wayyy was that the answer. What I ended up doing was realizing there were plenty of reviews on equipment that I had some experience with in the past. I started identifying reviewers who could articulate what I had heard, and whether they liked it or want their preference. By doing this I started to identify reviewers that shared my taste and the things that were important. At the end of the dayit was only about 3 reviewers (for me) that I could work with. Luckily they also demo'd and reviewed alot of equipment. I could trust their ear... and this wasn't trust as in hey this speaker or amp sounds good, it was them articulating a range of characteristics... I didn't even care if they liked it or not bcs based on their descriptions I had a sound refrence through them. 

Prior to this last sytem I never spent this much time in reviews and research. Id spent 20 or 50 hrs in the past demoing and drivin to this dealer and that one.. all og which I eventually sold off. This time all blind buys(I know risky right, but wasn't working the other way) I knew exactly what I wanted to order when I placed my orders, and has been 3 years and I have zero desire to chase anything else. Is there a speaker or system that does something mine doesn't, well sort of barely,  but only in one or two aspects in such a  minor difference, but to change over to anything else I'd be giving up waaaay more than I would gain and I could live without what I hear now. Hope this helps... and now you know why I couldn't recommend anything in particular bcs....why??? But if you find a process that truly works you can easily narrow your search down to a few you can't go wrong with. Best of luck sorry this was so long I didn't want to lose the message. 

@ezstreams

AXPONA - great choice. For Sonics that you like, take notes of audio chain components- source, electronics, speakers so you can sift through them later to narrow down your preferences/choices. Maybe you’ll get lucky and find out your ideal electronics. Found a sonically subjectively ideal choice at an audio show -Gryphon Commander+APEX, but is way out of my budget so still searching. Will try to demo Westminster REI.

Maybe bring some CDs to demo. AXPONA is very large so pace yourself to make sure you have enough time to evaluate gear

2022 was last time I visited audio shows, purchased my speakers from AXPONA 2022 demo. Getting itch, plan to go to AXPONA 2025. Hoping to demo Songer S1x field coil driver

@ezstreams 

I’m not sure you mentioned it, but what speakers do you have and what kinds of music do you listen to and at what volumes do you generally listen?  If Hegel, Luxman or PS Audio are there be sure to check them out.
 

My 68 year old ears have both Hegel H390, which is quiet as a mouse, with a very slight amount of warmth and can pretty much power any speaker and the PS Audio, BHK preamp and BHK 300 mono blocks that have a great deal of punch, but without any ear fatigue. 
 

All the best.

$8k can get you $25k worth of 10yr old very high quality (Pass, Mac, etc) used gear. Way better deal in my honest opinion

You have a great plan.  I recently upgraded over a 2 year period planning for my retirement.  

Are you looking for a modern integrated amp with a DAC/streamer or a traditional integrated amp without those features?  A combined integrated amp is cost effective but you loose flexibility.  I recommend a traditional integrated amp.  My recommendation within your budget is a preowned Burmester 082 if it has enough power for your system.  There is one available on this site. Tube like highs and mids with solid state speed and dynamics.  I also liked the AR I/50.  You cannot go wrong with the Gryphon or Pass recommendations above.  Have fun planning your system for retirement.  
 

Yamaha a-s3000 or 3200…

Yamaha a-s3000 or 3200…

Unless you’re completely def you should be able to hear differences between amplifiers but visiting the show will confirm or disprove this. 
meantime there’s another int250 available 

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650180311-pass-labs-int-250/

Congratulations, Axpona is really fun.I know someone from ALBERTA CANADA  who drives Annually to axpona.He said it’s one way visiting his relative in Toronto, and in Michigan and here in Illinois.So many integrated  at the show Luxman, Pass lab. McIntosh.

Another Nashville dealer, Atelier 13, carries a lot of brands that are off the beaten path, and they appear to have a bunch within your price range.  I’ve worked with the owner, Constantin, on an excellent SUT from Swissonor.  

From someone in your age group (a couple of years older) and dealing with tinnitus and hearing loss (old age sucks!), I've found a Luxman class-A integrated to be my "end game" component.  At your budget, you can probably get any of their gear, at least used if not new, and you'll have the capability to use tone controls to deal with the deficiencies of your hearing and/or source material.

@lalitk ​​​​@singere thank you for the hifi shop recommendations. Looking at the Product lines listed on their websites, it appears they carry extremely high end $$$$ manufacturers.

@roadcykler you may well be right; I’m praying you’re not (my wife is probably praying you are). Either way I win as going to a high end audio show is on my life bucket list (I suspect the Agon community can appreciate that). 

@audphile1 , yes, I still have the original Perspectives (non-graphene) and I believe I’m not getting the most out of them. Pass Labs is definitely on my amplification short list. There was a used Pass Labs INT-250 for sale last month for just under $7,600 that I would likely have bought if I knew my ears are capable of hearing the sonic qualities I’m looking for. I’m ready to place that bet yet. 

Do you still have Joseph Audio Perspective speakers? Read the stereophile review where the reviewer makes a few comments that can help you as a general direction for selecting the new integrated.

To him the speakers worked best with Pass XA60.5 amps and were unforgiving when it came to less than perfect recordings.
The Pass Labs XA60.5 are warm sounding Class A amps. I’ve owned Pass electronics and the house sound is warm and luscious even with their Class A/B amps. One of the advantages of Pass amps is they make less than perfect recordings sound very tolerable.
So I would probably focus on rooms at shows that feature Joseph Audio speakers as well as rooms featuring Pass Labs electronics. See if you can find anyone running a Boulder 866 integrated as well. I find the 866 very similar in sound to Pass so with those speakers looking for integrated I would focus on Pass Int250 and Boulder 866.

Go to many audio shows that you can. Tampa has 1 in a couple of weeks. I used to go to CES/the show/rmaf and others every year and now just the Tampa show.

Most equipment you will be seeing will be way over your $8000 budget. Your goal is to see if you can hear a difference in setups, doesn’t matter if they are $10k systems or $200k systems. If you can’t hear any difference then I would spend a dime on an integrated and I would look at the Kef LS60 or Kef LS50 wireless 2 setups. These are active systems where all you need is an Ethernet cable and power. You just need a streaming service or Roon and you are done. 
 

If you can’t hear any hear a difference, then I’d still look at the Kef speakers above but I’d also start evaluating as any integrated amps you can. When you go to an audio show and you find something you like, ask for a personal audition which they will give you after the show closes for the day or before it opens the next day. If done that many times and it’s only you in the room. Go to Atlanta and check out a few audio places there. 
Besides the sound of an integrated, you need to figure out what features you are looking for in an integrated: dac/phono preamp/streaming capabilities, etc. Not all integrated amps provide these functions and most that do are compromised at best, but maybe they will be good enough for you. How many inputs do you need, balanced inputs, sub outputs, equalizer, dsp, the list goes on. 
Unless you have high sensitive speakers, I would look to get as powerful amp as possible within your budget. I had to sell my H360 Hegel because it wasn’t powerful enough for some new speakers, but I got a250 watt separate amp and it had plenty of power for the speakers, same power but the separate amp is 3x the size of the Hegel 

Good plan, never visited an audio show, but an excellent idea.  You can put together a very nice system for $8k.  I’ve built 6 systems for 6 different rooms in two homes over the last four years ranging from $1k to $15k. Some new gear, some used stuff. They all sound “good”. In each room for their intended purposes, e,g., main room, bedroom, office, home gym, etc. #1 rig @$15k actually sounds pretty amazing.  You’re in a good spot, enjoy the journey. 

@ezsteams

Have you contacted Ellington HiFi (Tony) in Fairhope, Alabama. He has some great lines. I've talked to him numerous times regarding different amps and streamers.

At 68 with tinnitus, depending on the level of that, the chances of actually hearing a difference is kind of minimal. You may believe you're hearing differences, but chances are, you won't be.

@ezstreams 

Did you had a chance to visit @gestalt in Nashville. I recommend checking out his room at AXPONA. 

all relative, 8K is a big fat budget, especially used

Thanks guys!

@audphile1, @lalitk ​​@zlone I agree, AXPONA won’t be the best critical listening venue, but it will be a fun check on my bucket list and will provide an opportunity to listen contrast and compare equipment and talk with vendors. 
Although I live in an extremely high tech and relatively affluent city (Huntsville AL), we only have 1 hifi dealership (who only carries Primaluna, McIntosh, and Naim amps).  Nashville is 2 hours away and Atlanta is 3.5 hrs away. I’ve travelled to hifi shops in both cities. I’ve not been impressed with what I’ve heard there. 
@rick_n the Gryphon 120 integrated would be closer to my $comfort range. 

@soix the Unison Research I150 looks very interesting, especially being a hybrid. Thank you, I’ll definitely add it to my list. 

The only integrated amp I would consider is the Line Magnetic.  It is 28wpc if I remember correctly BUT the transformers used are some of the best.  I think it retails for $4800.  Just plan awesome sounding and those transformers is all where the music comes from.

Happy Listening.

Given your speakers and that you’re looking for better bass control I’d be cautious choosing a pure tube integrated and is why I recommended Unison Unico and Pathos hybrid integrateds in your prior thread. I believe Unison will be in the Top Shelf rooms 1402 or 1404 but didn’t see Pathos. One of the Fidelity Imports rooms may also have Unison amps but couldn’t find any specifics so maybe give them a call if interested. Happy hunting!

@ezstreams

Why go through all this "rigmarole" on a forum like this?  This is the age of high tech with a vast global market and information (new and used) at your disposal via the internet that you can utilize to do your own research.  In addition to searching the internet, search your local audio shops for auditions.  Attending audio shows is a good thing as well.  I was in your same shoes about four years ago when I too was in the market for an integrated amp.  It's like me asking others which speakers would be the best choice for me.  It's a waist of time.  Go do the research yourself.   You're the one that has to live with your decision.  Search to see which integrated amps are out there within your price range (new and used).  Go audition and then make a decision.  I ended up with a Hegel H590 integrated amp which is my end-game amp.  Happy listening.                          

Take a look at a Pass Labs INT-25 or INT-60. Used would save you lot of money.

$8k might get you close to a used Gryphon Diablo 300.  Wink. 

Great plan. I am sure you understand the limitations of noisy environments. But you are doing exactly the right thing and should move you logically towards your goal.

If I or someone have not recommended this book... it'll give you some great info and perspective. The Complete Guide to High End Audio by Robert Harley. Perfect prep for the show.

Amps are a bit harder to audition under show conditions, however I think that your plan is solid. I attended AXPONA last year and while the easiest thing to audition at a show is speakers, there were some component manufacturers that stood out. Audia Flight, Audionet and Vinnie Rossi (Brama) all stood out to me. 

AXPONA is a lot of fun, regardless of whether you find your dream amp, it will not be a wasted trip.

Driving to AXPONA….That’s a good plan even though the room conditions aren’t always ideal. Listening to variety of components within your budget will help narrow your choices. Many exhibitors have private sessions after show hours, try to attend those for more intimate listening.

And then there are many dealers who would allow home auditions. That’s the best way to decide on your final purchase. Good luck!

ACPONA should be fun. But trying to gauge how good an amp is within a noisy setting of a show and in the context of a completely unfamiliar system and room will not be possible. 
The $8,000 budget is enough to play on a used market and try a couple of integrated amps but you will have to buy and sell. Unless you hit a bullseye on your first attempt which is possible if you have done your research.