This one will probably invite some withering mockery, but I will ask....
I only stream, and my streamer (Bryston BDP) is fed with an ethernet cable that runs back to my router. Literally back to my router; there are enough output jacks on the router that I have a long run to the streamer and no ethernet switch in the chain (or the house system for that matter). (There is an Eno filter right before the streamer).
I happen to OWN a nice LHY ethernet switch. I am assuming that there is no reason to use it in this configuration, that is, assuming there are noisier switches, and less noisy switches, there is still no net benefit of adding any switch to this chain. But maybe, just maybe, in the metaphysics of electrons that I do not understand, there is some reason why a nice switch prior to the streamer accomplishes something (in theory...I get that I can A/B test and try to fool myself whether I can hear a difference). For the first person with a correct answer, I will mail a nice $600 switch to the address you specify! (JK)
Everyone begins and ends this part of the audio journey differently. What is the baseline from which to compare? Is it a redbook cd vs a streamed version? We then must obsess over whether the recording is consistent between the two samples?
I experienced some streaming improvement when I inserted a Network Acoustics Rubicon switch and NA Muon filter in my system. At the time I utilized an Innuos Zenith MkIII. A number of dacs came and went but overall, I “believe” I heard an improvement. I replaced the Innuos with the Grimm MU1 and just assumed it was optimized. I then received the Muon Pro setup and pulled the Muon and I heard no difference….then I “believe” I heard addition by subtraction…in other words, I removed the Muon, Muon Pro and noted no improvement or degradation. Heresy? Perhaps. Is the MU1 addressing the same things as the Muon? Perhaps. Differences in ethernet cables? Well, I’m not hearing any differences and yet I “believe” I did in my Innuos setup. @fredrik222is correct but sometimes he gets so frustrated with people that he may lose the audience.
No offense to anyone because we have to trust our own impressions but “hearing” one ethernet cable and then replacing it with a different cable and listening one week apart isn’t reasonable. I happen to “believe” that streamer quality and especially dac quality are where your opportunity for improvement resides. In my use case I am able to listen to an identical (to the extent I am able to validate) track streamed vs local file via AES into my dac vs the same tracks streamed over ethernet to my dac (as a Roon endpoint) vs a local file streamed over ethernet to my dac (once again, as a Roon endpoint). I do not hear a meaningful difference between the streamed vs local file over AES. Both are superior to streaming to my dac over ethernet be it a Qobuz track vs local file. Over ethernet, the local file is superior to the Qobuz stream.
What does all this mean? I believe the Grimm/Taiko types of server/streamers just clock better and use a superior interface (aes/ebu). YMMV but audiophile switches, cables and filters are system dependent…and in my current setup they are mostly redundant. Dont think that $5k in upstream ethernet filtration and gadgets are going to make a Gustard/Bluesound combo world class. They can be satisfying but for most people, buying a quality streamer and a quality dac will yield better results.
@audphile1 sure, but if they bees don’t get that they are supposed to collect the sweet stuff to create honey, but want to have in-depth “discussion” on how you need the oil from deep in the earth, there is no point.
to discuss any topic, you need a foundational level of knowledge at the very least, and most on this forum know absolutely nothing about how streaming actually works, but want to make it seem as if they do by throwing out terms like UDP and RTSP, or nano currents, because they read a debunked white paper by EtherRegen or watched a video regurgitating the same white paper by Hans B.
You might notice that fredrik only shows up here on workdays to troll these forums. He is an IT minion working in the back of a windowless room and obviously bored, knows nothing about audio and doesn’t care. His pleasure is trolling and frustrating genuine lovers of audio and music.
@lalitk et al, some partial empirical report-out as changes have occurred in my system:
1. As noted earlier, I found LHY switch was a small negative on sound quality (as compared to no switch, if one can avoid the need). I have not re-introduced it in the chain, but will test as you suggest.
2. ENO filter re-validated as a small improvement on sound quality.
3. Roon sounds worse than Manic Moose (native player, also known as Music Player Daemon or MPD) with Bryston BDP players. There was another thread where people were debating whether Roon did or could have negative impact on SQ. I hear some (at least as compared with BDP + Manic Moose combo, which may be a magic pairing). This is streaming Tidal lossless, PCM and feeding Lampizator DAC. Using Roon B Nucleus with an LHY LPS (LPS80VA). I was a Roon lover until I realized I would want MPD for critical listening...not sure I will want Roon for part-time use.
6. BDP3 shipping will be delayed a bit; all the above is using BDP2 still.
So still need to compare CAT cable and give the LHY switch another chance. I also changed routers, which adds variability to whatever I thought I heard before (never realized Roon could be a negative on SQ before, but I wasn't looking for it either).
@mathiasmingusthanks for the follow up.
Oh yeah the LinkUp cable is really nice. Give it some time to settle though.
On Roon vs native streamer UI sound quality…in my experience with two dedicated streamers, Auralic Aries G1 and Lumin U1 Mini, I definitely heard the Auralic Lightning DS sound better than Roon, but with Lumin U1 Mini it was really close between the Lumin app and Roon. So I restarted my Roon subscription when I got the Lumin. I actually preferred the less “digital” presentation with Roon using U1 Mini as end point. That was a blessing because the Lumin app sucks.
So it all depends on a streamer and what has more synergy with your setup.
My LHY switch up and died on me a some weeks back. It was 10 months old at the time so still under warranty. With help from Singapore, I diagnosed the problem- shorted circuit on the ethernet card. They sent me a replacement board and it is back up and running. Meanwhile, I couldn’t be without music and I could definitely hear a difference without the LHY so I bought the English Electric 8 switch. I like the sound of it a little better than the LHY. Now I am keeping the EE8 in my audio system.
My plan was to sell the LHY after a month or two, to insure the repair held; but I inserted it at the TV end of my long ethernet cable from the EE8 to the TV. Surprisingly, it made an already great TV picture even better. So the LHY is staying.
I have no doubts now that these audio grade switches matter just as much as a DAC or an amp. I hope I never hear a $3000 switch in my system. That’s the thing about audio- our systems sound great, until we hear something better.
More info: I ran what it supposed to be a 75 foot (maybe it is a 100ft cable), CAT7 ethernet cable from the Audio grade network switch to my Apple TV box. That was a major improvement in the streaming picture on my OLED TV. The fact that putting the LHY switch- a second audio grade network switch downstream of this long cable run making the picture even better tells me these ethernet cables still pick up some level of noise.
Also, I tried my fiber optic link with LPS powered FMC’s and that added some graininess to the TV picture. So overall, I find the Audio grade switches to be the best option for music and video.
Thanks for the update. IME, ROON implementation is one of the main reason why end user would experience inconsistency in SQ. Every manufacturer or designer doing their best to integrate ROON and tweak their hardware for best possible outcome. As @audphile1pointed out, ROON SQ greatly varies due to the approach in the implementation by each manufacturer. Some manufacturers excelling and others couldn’t care less as long as they are meeting the ‘ROON endpoint’ specifications.
Coming back to your system, If I may make a suggestion to strategically introduce each change one at a time. Starting with LinkUp cable, let it break-in for atleast 250 hours before you introduce next upgrade, i.e. LHY switch. Once all the components are fully broken-in, then reverse the process for A/B comparison. Listen for extended periods, especially LAN cable. Streamers typically buffers or cache incoming bitstream so swapping LAN cables on short intervals may not allow you to discern any differences.
Good points made by @lalitk. Just a small detail to add - when swapping Ethernet cables, power down your streamer (not in standby, but actually powered off). I found, with several streamers, swapping Ethernet cables while the unit is on results in sound degradation. Same applies to USB cables. This has been my experience. And in general, swapping any cables while the components are on, be it the interconnects or speaker cables, is just not worth the risk.
@lalitk I appreciate your guidance and agree with your methodology....but you have unrealistic assumptions about my capacity for discipline and focus. 😂 I'm also getting closer to understanding why streamers can be $20K or why people could spend $4k on a switch or $2k on a filter. Dorothy, we're a long way from "bits is bits"!
I want to double-click on what @tonywingasaid, which countered my intuition, which is that adding another audiophile switch improved SQ. How can that be? I was assuming that any additional component that has a power cord can only be a net negative (even if miniscule, in the case of $4k switches). Unless good switches also ....filter ...or "regenerate" the signal, or have some property similar to impedence matching. I'm not arguing that something heard was not real, just trying to understand the theoretical basis.
Apologies, I did not intend to doubt your capabilities, methodology or focus. It was more like a cautionary advice drawn from my own mistakes and experiences 😊
@lalitkI think my joke missed - what I meant is that you implicitly expressed confidence in my capabilities and focus...which may not be grounded in reality. 😂
“I found, with several streamers, swapping Ethernet cables while the unit is on results in sound degradation.” @audphile1
That’s interesting, certainly not my experience with LAN cables swapping. I should attribute this to the fabulous cache feature in my Aurender. I know not to attempt swapping IC, speaker or USB while equipment is ON 🤣
“I found, with several streamers, swapping Ethernet cables while the unit is on results in sound degradation.” @audphile1
That’s interesting, certainly not my experience with LAN cables swapping. I should attribute this to the fabulous cache feature in my Aurender. I know not to attempt swapping IC, speaker or USB while equipment is ON 🤣
That’s interesting, certainly not my experience with LAN cables swapping. I should attribute this to the fabulous cache feature in my Aurender. I know not to attempt swapping IC, speaker or USB while equipment is ON 🤣
If your Aurender is reading from the cache, it is not using the Ethernet cable at all, so how would switching cables make a different?
On my digital journey, I have found that sometimes just tweaks can make a notable difference in sound quality. Better digital cabling for the Ethernet as well as USB or S/PDIF makes a difference. Minimizing noise is also really important. Last year, I was listening to the differences between music stored on my music-server and streamed through the same device. The difference though subtle was obvious that the streamed music was not as micro-detailed and dynamic as the SAME album stored on the music-server. I installed an Uptone-Audio Ether-REGEN device and that brought the streamed music on par with the stored music. That Ethernet regenerator not only re-digitizes the signal, it minimized and isolates noise from the incoming signal. Even my fiance could tell the difference in the music and she's not as attuned to subtle changes as I am. The LHY switch referred to in some above comments is a really good device. An audiophile friend of mine has one and is impressed with the improved performance of the streamed music. As I've experienced in my continuing digital-audio journey, minimizing jitter, noise and use of precision clocks all have their place in improving sound quality and thusly enjoyment.
I'm not here to troll. But packets are packets and ethernet knows how to reassemble them. If it didn't then $%kdiow @#sedfm WE235* would happen.
The rest of this, on the network side, is audio bling, unless your streamer isn't designed well to handle any electrical noise over its LAN port. And that is only theoretical.
I feel bad for Fredrik222 - he's absolutely correct, but some of his posts are off-putting. Then again, so are the responses to those posts...
I know not to attempt swapping IC, speaker or USB while equipment is ON
Definitely don't swap single-ended interconnects and if you swap speakers you have to pull the + first and put in the - first. If anything bad happens when you pull a USB cable, then you've got something seriously wrong with that USB device.
I honestly do not want to start or perpetuate an argument but analog audio logic simply doesn't apply in the digital or network domain. It's fundamentally different.
I owned the Bryston SP3. I too run all my music through my internet set up (server). I use NAS storage as well as internal 8 terabyte internal drive. I run Synergistic Research Ethernet hub, their Ethernet filtering, and their Ethernet cables and power cables. It all makes a difference. The EVO Aeon music server makes the biggest difference in my opinion. This server has the closest to vinyl sound for it’s price. The Ethernet hub is one of the best you can buy but many audiophiles could not justify the price. It is certainly very musical and much more versatile than my previous reference turntable but vinyl still sounds better to me.
Also, I run 100 feet of direct Cat 8 cable to my dedicated room. Also your choice of DAC will be critical. Reclockers and external power supplies and grounding will drop that noise floor to a black background.
"Packets are packets and its all just 1's and 0's."
You IT guys are 40 years behind. This discussion started when CDs first came out. It's been proven over and over that digital audio is more than the bit stream. If it were not the case most of this equipment today would not exist. In spite of the naysayers, digital audio has come a long way. I listen to my digital rig now with immense pleasure. It competes easily now with my analog rig and exceeds in some cases.
Until you have heard a decent audio system for yourself with and without various digital components added in, all of you IT naysayers look like cavemen claiming heavier than air craft is impossible.
Yes, the digital domain is different. In the analog world, less is more. ie. keeping the signal path short and clean is the best path to great sound. In the digital world, analog noise on the transmission lines and power supplies and jitter manifests itself as analog noise, harshness in the highs and poor imaging/sound staging. Jitter doesn't mean much looking at text on a computer screen but it is everything when it comes to streaming. It looks to me that the money we spend on digital audio components is mostly for clocking accuracy to reduce jitter that was not even possible in the best labs a decade or two ago. Sure, some people don't hear or care about the difference. One of my brothers likes his Sony boombox over my stereo system. He's not kidding. To each his own. But why oh why do you naysayers feel the need to prolong a 40+ year argument? Go buy a Teac CD player made in 1983 at a garage sale and have yourself a ball.
My latest DAC has internal reclocking on the USB in and the AES and Coax in. It wasn't cheap but it unquestionably sounds amazing. Another thing with this DAC that I noticed is that the noise floor got even lower. I used to could hear the noise floor lift up as a song was starting with my old, very good DAC. It was like a prelude to the song. Now, the music starts from a total black background. That took some getting used to as well- the music starting from nowhere.
We are here to share our experiences and simply suggesting to learn or form your opinion by experimenting. The idea is simply to try, you may or may not like result, and that's perfectly fine. This is a hobby not some scientific project where folks open to experimenting are under any obligation to provide evidence/proof for what we hear in our environment.
You said, you are not here to troll but with a mindset of packets are packets and all else is audio bling, you fit the mold of someone who’s close-minded.
I honestly do not want to start or perpetuate an argument but analog audio logic simply doesn't apply in the digital or network domain. It's fundamentally different.
digital signal is carried by the analog signal inside digital cables. That is one of the reasons the sound quality varies amongst digital interconnects. Other reasons are cable material composition, noise rejection properties and connectors. Yes the bits are bits and will be transferred correctly but in audio the logic of bits are bits doesn’t always apply. Now if you’re talking about fiber optic then the analog signal concepts don’t apply. @fredrik222is right with packet transfers but doesn’t understand the difference between buffering and caching which is surprising because buffering is an essential element of networking. Caching is an essential element of data processing and rendering. He fails to understand and acknowledge he doesn’t know everything and has a rancid attitude turning discussions into wars.
Fredrik, you have been saying the same single message over and over on these forums for as long as 8 months- best I can tell. Do you think you have convinced anyone that packets are packets or that the gear makes no difference? Have you even taken the trouble to listen to some decent stereo gear and hear it for yourself? Perhaps, you are in the group that is not sensitive to PRAT, jagged highs or care about imaging. Nothing wrong with that; but to assume that no one else can is wrong.
There's a reason your boss probably keeps you away from people. Your interpersonal skills need some work. I'm not trying to be mean. All of us technical oriented, ie. left brain people have to make an effort at improving our interpersonal skills. Take a look at a politician. He can convince people to use umbrellas on a sunny day as easily as you or I can discuss an engineering principle. Don't go that hard over but learn to see that not everything in the world is black and white- in fact the world is many shades of gray. And learn that other peoples viewpoints have value.
I've seen my designs do things I didn't think possible. Dynamic systems are difficult to analyze and understand. Complex systems have interactions that can cause exponential changes. Audio draws in us technical types I think, because of the challenges and often unexpected outcomes. That's what keeps life interesting.
So this is a somewhat odd thread but I’ll add to the pile. Noise is an issue that is hard to fathom as when it’s there, you may not realize it. When it’s reduced you certainly can.
Had used the fiber optical solution seen here in the video and it worked very well. When I added a WiiM Pro to my monoblock tube amps, didn’t think it was needed anymore.
More recently, I had switched going out from the streamer coax and thought let’s try that glass optical cable I run for video audio. It is a substantial and a lovely improvement running that glass Toslink into an RME ADI-2 DAC. The DAC can handle 192K streaming coming out of the WiiM Pro.
Had the fiber optical cable lying around and said, hey, why not give it a try. It may not be an improvement like earlier. (Also use an LPS for the second fiber converter's power and to power the WiiM Pro.) Well, it took up the performance a whole other notch and now my system is the best sounding it’s ever been. It's sooooo good. 🐸
Both of these changes offered significant improvement because noise was removed. They are both audible and with noticeable impact. Happy listening and Happy New Year!
@tonywingain the last thread you defined a troll as someone who cannot backup their claims and are only out to instigate confrontation (paraphrased), and I repeatedly asked you to back up your fanatical and fantastical claims, and you couldn’t, so, again, per your own definition, you are a troll. Every time you are asked to provide any at all supporting evidence of your outlandish claims, you take to personal attacks.
Well frederik, I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps if I were more of a politician... But I'm just a retired, cranky old engineer. I know that I would struggle selling hot potatoes to Eskimos. But you know, as an engineer I always worked with data and stood up for the truth- even took a hit in my career once by standing up for the truth. So you see it is hurtful when you claim I am making false claims about my own personal experiences. Most people on these forums, like myself are genuine and want to share our discoveries and experiences with others. Sure, we need to watch out for that wolf in sheep's clothing now and then but they are quickly found out.
The rest of this, on the network side, is audio bling, unless your streamer isn’t designed well to handle any electrical noise over its LAN port. And that is only theoretical.
Chris Stephens of DeJitterIt uses older and more accurate test equipment to ferret out noise that some say isn’t in there and gets these results. Scroll down to see them at the link. Also, see this presentation:
This has been brought up before by other members who use this product and the naysayers who populate this thread never chimed in on it when this was discussed.
Granted, it’s expensive, but it addresses what some say isn’t there and shouldn’t matter. Maybe some of the naysayers can contact GTT Audio and Chris Stephens, debate/discuss this with them, and get back to the members here and report back how it went. Maybe even do a YouTube video or start a webpage about it instead of trolling on threads.
I’ve been deeply tracking audiophile switches for quite awhile, looking for lower cost alternatives to the Telegartner M12 switch which also requires special terminated cables. I concluded:
Audiophile switches must be at least to the level of English Electric 8switch, and this switch is easily beaten by more expensive audiophile switches. Home improved switches like Cisco are not enough to make a noticeable sonic difference
Unless you need a switch, this is only an option. The Sonic benefit can be minor- like upgrading a cable. Often the $3-4k+ would be better spent elsewhere
You need a very transparent system to hear a worthwhile difference such as very low noise floor components which are costly
Audiophile switches benefit with a better linear power supply
Adding more switches reportedly brings sonic benefits
So for most people, it’s better to spend their money elsewhere than on an audiophile switch. YMMV
A lot of people really suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect in this forum, also known as cognitive bias, or the less you know about a topic the more you think you know about said topic.
But you know, as an engineer I always worked with data and stood up for the truth
Thank you for the laugh of the year (early still). You have never in your life on this forum posted any data supporting anything you say, even though I have asked for it over and over again.
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