This one will probably invite some withering mockery, but I will ask....
I only stream, and my streamer (Bryston BDP) is fed with an ethernet cable that runs back to my router. Literally back to my router; there are enough output jacks on the router that I have a long run to the streamer and no ethernet switch in the chain (or the house system for that matter). (There is an Eno filter right before the streamer).
I happen to OWN a nice LHY ethernet switch. I am assuming that there is no reason to use it in this configuration, that is, assuming there are noisier switches, and less noisy switches, there is still no net benefit of adding any switch to this chain. But maybe, just maybe, in the metaphysics of electrons that I do not understand, there is some reason why a nice switch prior to the streamer accomplishes something (in theory...I get that I can A/B test and try to fool myself whether I can hear a difference). For the first person with a correct answer, I will mail a nice $600 switch to the address you specify! (JK)
@mathiasmingusI tried the switch, a cheap one, between the router and the streamer, and I didn’t like the change in sound quality. I have also used Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System (filter and a 1m Ethernet cable). With and without the switch. Again the sound quality without the switch in the chain is what I preferred.
I eventually sold the Eno and opted for just a good Ethernet cable, a Purist Audio Design Cat7.
The LinkUp Ethernet cable from Amazon suggested by @lalitkis a solid recommendation. If you embark on the tweaks journey all that does, IMO, is create clutter and a spaghetti of wires, with questionable, if any, improvements…if you’re lucky. I’m of the mindset that investing in a better component (DAC and streamer) will give you a much better ROI than dumping $ into tweaks.
@cleeds some streamers buffer, some cache. Different technology and design concepts altogether.
Buffering leverages what is typically a small memory area that fills up and outputs data to match the transmission/stream speed. Think of it as your faucet running into a funnel that outputs a stream of data. During that time a lot takes place and it has to take place fast - unpacking the stream, converting it to the signal that your dac would understand, etc.
Caching typically stores the entire result set, in example several albums or a playlist. Caching leverages SSD and varies in capacity. Aurender uses about 240GB of SSD to cache the playlists and albums. Auralic uses about 1GB. When the result is cached, it is a slower process than buffering and yields a better opportunity to process and unpack data slower, using less processing and injecting less garbage into the final result. It essentially downloads the entire album ftom the cloud streaming service and stores it in that cache before sending a much cleaner than buffer data to dac.
Cheaper streamers buffer. Higher end streamers cache. Some higher end streamers buffer but use a healthy buffer area and processing to ensure the data is clean.
What sets the higher end streamers apart from their lower end counterparts is beefier power supplies designed to accommodate larger snd faster processors without taxing the power supplies, larger buffer and caching areas. There are also various means if isolation for LAN and USB inputs/outputs, as well as better clock, etc. Lowering the noise floor and having a clean data output to the dac is key to good sound. So yeah, when people upgrade a SMPS on something like the Node to linear power supply or add an Sbooster LPS to Lumin U1/2 Mini bypassing its SMPS it usually results in better sound due to just lowering the noise floor.
Adding switches, fiber optic conversion modules, linear power supplies and other similar tweaks will never turn a bluesound node into Grimm MU1. Invest into better quality components.
@mathiasminguscongrats on the purchase! The BDP3 if my memory serves is Roon ready. I’d give that a shot for the free trial period and compare the sound quality of Manic Moose vs. Roon. I’ve seen the Bryston software and I am pretty sure Roon is leaps and bounds better. Worth every penny especially when contrasted against the Moose.
@cleeds I have owned Auralic Aries G1 and Lumin U1 Mini. Currently I am using a network renderer in my DAC (Bricasti M3) as a Roon endpoint (Roon core duties are handled by Mac Mini) without an outboard dedicated streamer. I also occasionally use MConnect to bypass Roon and stream direct from streaming services (Qobuz and Tidal).
The M3 has two toroidal transformers running digital and analog sections of the unit. There’s nothing ti fiddle with and I don’t have any plans to do so. The point I was trying to make is it all depends on the design and implementation. There are excellent streamers that utilize buffering and equally good sounding units that leverage caching.
Here’s the M3 with its hood popped (this isn’t my unit, pic from hifi news).
Yes the Eno is gone. I actually had it for a while and concluded I didn’t need it.
With it in my system the sound became a bit too mellow. I heard that their Muon is more dynamic and more resolving but I’m not planning to spend $2200 on the network filter when it can be invested into other more impactful links in the audio reproduction chain.
@lalitk agreed. All you will get is clutter. Add linear power supplies to those fiber optic converters and get even more clutter. I have tried that fiber optic setup with several streamers that accept only copper network cables and actually don’t like the resulting sound. Besides it’s a spaghetti and a mess. I would just get a good Ethernet cable and call it a day. That’s all you really need - neat and organized with improved sound.
@cleeds ha? Dropped bits? Man who’s saying anything about dropped bits?
I’m talking about difference in sound quality that’s influenced more by a component design and implementation as well as parts quality that impact the sonics more than the network switches, or converting copper to fiber and back to copper, using switches and upgrading power supplies on routers, switches and fiber optic converters. This is the topic of this discussion. Let’s not highjack it.
@ozzy your setup makes sense - using fiber into Lumin that accepts it. One step convert copper to fiber optic and clean up the EMI and RFI on the copper data line.
@fredrik222 there is no downloading into a buffer. Buffering will let you buffer some data to help manage the data stream to allow other processing to take place. Let’s say for example it will buffer 1.5min or even less of a 5min track. This allows the processing to do what it should be doing. It’s not an uninterrupted stream as t never should be. Typically buffering is done in memory.
Caching on the other hand will cache the entire result set and the streamer will process the data from the cache (much larger solid stare drive or larger memory area). Aurender, for example, leverages a 240GB cache. If you pause in the middle of the playlist that was cached earlier and come back to it an hour later, the same data will continue to reside there until the cache is cleared. The same exact concepts apply on the database either you use SQL, Oracle on premises or Google or AWS in the cloud. When the user runs a query, if caching is enabled, the results will be cached. So that you can run and rerun the same exact data query - the result will be pulled from cache and not from the database again. Unless the criteria changes. With buffering it will always be re-pulled.
But one thing we can finally agree on, you and I, is the addition of switches. In every scenario I ever tried a switch caused degradation in sound quality.
Not sure what the Taiko switch is or what it is doing for $5,200 (technically it isn’t a switch with one in one out), but when we’re talking switches that the average schmucks will implement in their setup, best you can do is hope to not hurt anything. Hey if you get an improvement in the process, you can consider yourself lucky.
@lalitkyes that’s exactly my point. Based on how you tackled it, with adding the switch as absolutely the last thing, we’re pretty much on the same page.
@mathiasmingusthanks for the follow up.
Oh yeah the LinkUp cable is really nice. Give it some time to settle though.
On Roon vs native streamer UI sound quality…in my experience with two dedicated streamers, Auralic Aries G1 and Lumin U1 Mini, I definitely heard the Auralic Lightning DS sound better than Roon, but with Lumin U1 Mini it was really close between the Lumin app and Roon. So I restarted my Roon subscription when I got the Lumin. I actually preferred the less “digital” presentation with Roon using U1 Mini as end point. That was a blessing because the Lumin app sucks.
So it all depends on a streamer and what has more synergy with your setup.
Good points made by @lalitk. Just a small detail to add - when swapping Ethernet cables, power down your streamer (not in standby, but actually powered off). I found, with several streamers, swapping Ethernet cables while the unit is on results in sound degradation. Same applies to USB cables. This has been my experience. And in general, swapping any cables while the components are on, be it the interconnects or speaker cables, is just not worth the risk.
“I found, with several streamers, swapping Ethernet cables while the unit is on results in sound degradation.” @audphile1
That’s interesting, certainly not my experience with LAN cables swapping. I should attribute this to the fabulous cache feature in my Aurender. I know not to attempt swapping IC, speaker or USB while equipment is ON 🤣
I honestly do not want to start or perpetuate an argument but analog audio logic simply doesn't apply in the digital or network domain. It's fundamentally different.
digital signal is carried by the analog signal inside digital cables. That is one of the reasons the sound quality varies amongst digital interconnects. Other reasons are cable material composition, noise rejection properties and connectors. Yes the bits are bits and will be transferred correctly but in audio the logic of bits are bits doesn’t always apply. Now if you’re talking about fiber optic then the analog signal concepts don’t apply. @fredrik222is right with packet transfers but doesn’t understand the difference between buffering and caching which is surprising because buffering is an essential element of networking. Caching is an essential element of data processing and rendering. He fails to understand and acknowledge he doesn’t know everything and has a rancid attitude turning discussions into wars.
To further refine: if two tress fall, one after the other, and with the first one you had an ethernet filter in your pocket and the second one you did not and yet, they soundeded identical….well, then the filter makes no discernable difference.
I never go into the woods without my Ethernet filter…period! I need to be able to determine 1 or 0 trees fell.
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