Relationship between Ethernet Switch and SQ

Good one.  I do have some graphs on my system page showing how effective spring isolation can be-mechanically.  Isolation improves the sound but I have no proof of that other than my own experience which has also been corroborated by others.  Being an ME, not a EE I don't dig too deep into electronics- beyond rebuilding crossovers and such.

Thank you.  I'd say that streaming hi res is better than CD.  Local Hi res files have even a bit more body to the images.  My vinyl rig is most excellent but this new DAC gives it a run for its money.  Sound stage size and imaging are close to identical now between vinyl and digital.  I think the digital now has my vinyl beat on detail and resolution.  I wouldn't have believed that at all possible just a few years ago.  And now the digital highs and bass compete with the best of the best vinyl.   

I'm on the fence about a top end streamer.  That's why I have had my son in here evaluating with me the various formats this past week with my current streamer.  It is no slouch.  Lots of cache ram and I am using an upgraded power supply.  Very quiet.  Looking at the K50 but wish I could audition the top Aurender and the K50 in my own house before spending that much on a streamer because at the moment I can't see how I would realize that size of a gain.

Thanks again.  I don’t even know what I don’t know with regards to high end streamers.  
I read the Aurrender manuals and am a little intimidated by their software- well really just the idea of learning a new operating system.  I also wonder how my Roon music library would transfer to the Aurrender app. 

Here’s my follow up to moving network switches around. Yesterday, I moved the SW-8 to the front end of the long ethernet cable run vs at the back end next to the Apple TV box. I saw no difference in the streaming TV picture with that move. I also connected the back channel ethernet cable and connected the EE8 (English Electric 8) to the LHY SW-8 switch. I am leaving my computer disconnected.

I hear an improvement in the sound with the EE8 carrying only the one connection in and the one connection out to my music server. It is a small improvement so if I had just the one switch I could live with that. I’m not saying two audio grade network switches are needed to isolate the stereo from everything else but it seems to help the switch from an audio perspective if it is not connected to several peripheral devices. And I’m sure the results will likely vary for different people and differing situations. I suspect disconnecting my computer from the network switch had the most influence.

To sum up, the EE8 originally had 4 outbound connections (Computer, Back channel, TV and Music Streamer) and one in from the router. And finally, I’d say that the EE8 sounds better to me than the SW-8. Again, not a big difference in sound.

The clarity and resolving power of my system now is remarkable. The downside to that is hearing in great detail flaws in recordings. For example, in just this past week I have come across three tracks with clipping microphones. The one crackled so badly it triggered anxiety in me. I played it back and confirmed it was the mic. First, the crackling is repeatable and second, the crackling noise was in the image on the sound stage- not directly at one speaker or the other as would be the case if a driver had distortion. It is a little unsettling hearing these clicks, pops, hum in cords and now even clipping mics. And this detail can be heard in streaming songs. So be careful what you wish for.

I also had my son with his young ears listen to a spinning CD, the same CD ripped to a FLAC on my music server and then the 44.1/16 streaming FLAC and finally, the high res version streaming. He didn’t know which was which. His conclusions mirrored my own. Spinning CD and local FLAC- no difference. Streaming 44.1/16- very close to the local FLAC. Hi res (96/24) sounded slightly better than the other three versions. My son said the bass was better, I agree but also noted a more airy soundstage. I want to say a bit more color or better, a richer sound overall. I’m using Roon/Rock with straight through PCM via USB to my DAC. My DAC double clocks the incoming USB. It also reclocks the AES coming in from my CD Transport.

Was thinking about upgrading my streamer but I’m inclined to stand on what I have. I think a great DAC goes a long way when complemented with a decent streamer and a good clean ethernet signal in. I would hope the higher end music servers can forgo the signal conditioning- ie. one could leave out audio grade network switches but if I were to spend big on a music streamer/server no point not having a good network switch.

Last comment is that both the SW-8 and the EE8 switches have internal Oven controlled clocks. Seems to make a difference and that is the most technical thing I know about these switches. Yes, I diagnosed the SW-8 with my multimeter and outside guidance- they told me what the voltages should be at various connection points and then I isolated the shorted circuit on my own. No big deal. The circuit boards are plug and play inside the SW-8. Very well built.

So if I hear a tree fall while walking in the woods, should I assume that a tree really did not fall because 1) I did not see the tree falling and 2) I expected to hear a tree fall while in the woods and so therefore I heard one fall.  There is a third option:  There are no trees in the woods…. (There is no spoon.). Oooooh.

You might notice that fredrik only shows up here on workdays to troll these forums.  He is an IT minion working in the back of a windowless room and obviously bored, knows nothing about audio and doesn’t care.  His pleasure is trolling and frustrating genuine lovers of audio and music.  

It was a nice Holiday break…

More info:  I ran what it supposed to be a 75 foot (maybe it is a 100ft cable), CAT7 ethernet cable from the Audio grade network switch to my Apple TV box.  That was a major improvement in the streaming picture on my OLED TV.  The fact that putting the LHY switch- a second audio grade network switch downstream of this long cable run making the picture even better tells me these ethernet cables still pick up some level of noise.  

Also, I tried my fiber optic link with LPS powered FMC’s and that added some graininess to the TV picture.  So overall, I find the Audio grade switches to be the best option for music and video.

My LHY switch up and died on me a some weeks back.  It was 10 months old at the time so still under warranty.  With help from Singapore, I diagnosed the problem- shorted circuit on the ethernet card.  They sent me a replacement board and it is back up and running.  Meanwhile, I couldn’t be without music and I could definitely hear a difference without the LHY so I bought the English Electric 8 switch.  I like the sound of it a little better than the LHY.  Now I am keeping the EE8 in my audio system.  

My plan was to sell the LHY after a month or two, to insure the repair held; but I inserted it at the TV end of my long ethernet cable from the EE8 to the TV.  Surprisingly, it made an already great TV picture even better.  So the LHY is staying.  

I have no doubts now that these audio grade switches matter just as much as a DAC or an amp.  I hope I never hear a $3000 switch in my system.  That’s the thing about audio- our systems sound great, until we hear something better. 

"Packets are packets and its all just 1's and 0's."

You IT guys are 40 years behind.  This discussion started when CDs first came out.  It's been proven over and over that digital audio is more than the bit stream.  If it were not the case most of this equipment today would not exist.  In spite of the naysayers, digital audio has come a long way.  I listen to my digital rig now with immense pleasure.  It competes easily now with my analog rig and exceeds in some cases.  

Until you have heard a decent audio system for yourself with and without various digital components added in, all of you IT naysayers look like cavemen claiming heavier than air craft is impossible.  

Yes, the digital domain is different.  In the analog world, less is more.  ie. keeping the signal path short and clean is the best path to great sound.  In the digital world, analog noise on the transmission lines and power supplies and jitter manifests itself as analog noise, harshness in the highs and poor imaging/sound staging.  Jitter doesn't mean much looking at text on a computer screen but it is everything when it comes to streaming.  It looks to me that the money we spend on digital audio components is mostly for clocking accuracy to reduce jitter that was not even possible in the best labs a decade or two ago.  Sure, some people don't hear or care about the difference.  One of my brothers likes his Sony boombox over my stereo system.  He's not kidding.  To each his own.  But why oh why do you naysayers feel the need to prolong a 40+ year argument?  Go buy a Teac CD player made in 1983 at a garage sale and have yourself a ball.

My latest DAC has internal reclocking on the USB in and the AES and Coax in.  It wasn't cheap but it unquestionably sounds amazing.  Another thing with this DAC that I noticed is that the noise floor got even lower.  I used to could hear the noise floor lift up as a song was starting with my old, very good DAC.  It was like a prelude to the song.   Now, the music starts from a total black background.  That took some getting used to as well- the music starting from nowhere.

Fredrik, you are out of your league. 

Fredrik, you have been saying the same single message over and over on these forums for as long as 8 months- best I can tell.  Do you think you have convinced anyone that packets are packets or that the gear makes no difference?  Have you even taken the trouble to listen to some decent stereo gear and hear it for yourself?  Perhaps, you are in the group that is not sensitive to PRAT, jagged highs or care about imaging.  Nothing wrong with that; but to assume that no one else can is wrong.

There's a reason your boss probably keeps you away from people.  Your interpersonal skills need some work.  I'm not trying to be mean.  All of us technical oriented, ie. left brain people have to make an effort at improving our interpersonal skills.  Take a look at a politician.  He can convince people to use umbrellas on a sunny day as easily as you or I can discuss an engineering principle.  Don't go that hard over but learn to see that not everything in the world is black and white- in fact the world is many shades of gray.  And learn that other peoples viewpoints have value.

I've seen my designs do things I didn't think possible.  Dynamic systems are difficult to analyze and understand.  Complex systems have interactions that can cause exponential changes.  Audio draws in us technical types I think, because of the challenges and often unexpected outcomes.  That's what keeps life interesting.  

You keep deflecting,

Answer the questions.

Still can't answer the questions...

Well frederik, I'm sorry you feel that way.  Perhaps if I were more of a politician...  But I'm just a retired, cranky old engineer.  I know that I would struggle selling hot potatoes to Eskimos.  But you know, as an engineer I always worked with data and stood up for the truth- even took a hit in my career once by standing up for the truth.  So you see it is hurtful when you claim I am making false claims about my own personal experiences.  Most people on these forums, like myself are genuine and want to share our discoveries and experiences with others.  Sure, we need to watch out for that wolf in sheep's clothing now and then but they are quickly found out.  

@fredrik222 Yawn.

I see you are back at the office today.  Your boss has nothing for you to do?  Really?

This is ironic:

A lot of people really suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect in this forum, also known as cognitive bias, or the less you know about a topic the more you think you know about said topic. 

This post of yours seems to best describe you.

@fredrik222  You seem to have this delusion that you are an expert on this topic.  As far as we know, you are not.   You have never posted a technical article that you have published in the appropriate journal nor shown established credentials to verify your claims.  You have not even posted an audio system to show any relevant experience with audio nor have you shared your experiences, if any listening to and comparing various network switches in a competent audio system.  You just copy/paste other peoples work and then make comments with a spin on it to support your claims.  You're just a duck in a storm- "quack, quack, quack."

Interesting video.  He shows data of how performance degrades under load.  I had wondered that in the back of my mind since my Audio network switch has my computer, back channel router and Apple TV plugged into it.  The EE8 switch says to use one particular port for audio because it is isolated from the rest.  I’m thinking about moving the SW-8 from the Apple TV and putting it next to the EE8.  Plug everything into the SW-8 and then have one cable from the SW-8 go to the EE8 and on to my music server.  I’ll see if that makes a difference.  (I will also try just unplugging everything but the Audio from the EE8.)

I saw an improvement in the TV picture streaming when I put the SW-8 next to the Apple TV.  My assumption was that the long, 100’ ethernet cable run picks up some noise.  But maybe it is the multiple connections into the EE8 that are adding noise.

I moved the SW-8 next to the EE8.  So the SW-8 is connected to the Apple TV at the front end of the long ethernet cable vs. the back end.  I also left the computer unconnected- it doesn’t need an ethernet cable anyway.  The TV picture streaming looks the same as when the SW-8 was at the back end of the long Ethernet cable and next to the Apple TV.

The EE8 now has one short connection coming from the SW-8 and one connection to my music server.  It will be a couple of days before I listen to my stereo system.  I shut the stereo down last night so I can get some yard work done the next couple of days. 

You don’t know until you try it.  One thing is for sure, I will never listen to what some bratty IT kid has to say- thinks music is mp3 files.  

That's just it- it is not 1's and 0's coming into your modem.  It is a high frequency carrier wave that is frequency modulated.  On top of that wires are antennas so additional noise is picked up by these cables along the way.  That modulated signal must be converted back into digital words by the modem.  Going any deeper than that will require a considerable investment of time and comprehension by the researcher.  Electronic communications has a long history of development going back to the first telegraphs.

The telegraph seems to be a good analogy, if not a very simplified example of digital communication.  The system employed dots and dashes as a form of code to convey information from one operator to another.  Using wet cell batteries and copper wound coils to form solenoids, this simple electrical circuit would mirror the taps of an electrical switch at one end with taps by the solenoid at the other end.  Standard protocols were developed to signal the beginning of a message and end of a message.  And of course, if the receiving operator missed a dot or dash in the process then the message became garbled.

As the use of the telegraph spread, technical problems emerged.  Signals grew too weak over long distances to ensure the receiver got an intelligible message.  They increased the voltages to enable longer distances and also had to use operators as relays- resend messages on towards their destination.  The first transatlantic cable was laid prior to the Civil War but was a complete failure.  No message could be successfully transmitted across the ocean.  It required further research and understanding of the effects of seawater on wires and electrical signals before the first successful transatlantic signal could be sent.

My point is that there are no simple answers or solutions to streaming music digitally.  I'm already talking over my head here so I will stop.  But suffice it to say, understanding and learning comes only with great effort- with trials and error and learning from other's efforts.  A closed mind learns nothing.  An open mind can learn anything.