This one will probably invite some withering mockery, but I will ask....
I only stream, and my streamer (Bryston BDP) is fed with an ethernet cable that runs back to my router. Literally back to my router; there are enough output jacks on the router that I have a long run to the streamer and no ethernet switch in the chain (or the house system for that matter). (There is an Eno filter right before the streamer).
I happen to OWN a nice LHY ethernet switch. I am assuming that there is no reason to use it in this configuration, that is, assuming there are noisier switches, and less noisy switches, there is still no net benefit of adding any switch to this chain. But maybe, just maybe, in the metaphysics of electrons that I do not understand, there is some reason why a nice switch prior to the streamer accomplishes something (in theory...I get that I can A/B test and try to fool myself whether I can hear a difference). For the first person with a correct answer, I will mail a nice $600 switch to the address you specify! (JK)
@nonoise so, the moderators did not like calling the guy what he is.
But either way, there are no measurements in that video, and the guy is clueless. He doesn't know anything about Ethernet at all as evident by the video.
for instance, he says all electronics are contained in the SFP, which is patently false. Open ANY switch and you will see this very clearly.
And then he says "don't use wifi unless you bought it from me". Yeah, sales guy at its finest.
Below is a link to an article describing what is in a switch, which proves that this guy is clueless. Completely clueless.
On top of that, he references a video by another guy who states why you shouldn't use wifi, and that guy "Apple TV X", correctly states that wifi has more than 10x latency, and therefore you shouldn't use it for audio. Well, it fails to account for buffering, and what the human ear can perceive. Wifi is perfectly fine for streaming audio.
In a residential setting, there is no RFI propagation through Ethernet, it is impossible. No one has ever posted anything factual to the contrary. Lots of people have posted things they think says this, but doesn't. Dunning-Kruger....
I see you are back at the office today. Your boss has nothing for you to do? Really?
This is ironic:
A lot of people really suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect in this forum, also known as cognitive bias, or the less you know about a topic the more you think you know about said topic.
@tonywinga lots people don’t like what I have to say, but I doubt they would say I don’t know what I am talking about. Same can’t be said for you, who can’t post anything to support your fanatical and fantastical claims.
I apologize for taking sides - but I would like to encourage you to start your own thread(s) in digital audio (i.e. “Debunking fanatical and fantastical claims in audio”) and fight it out with people who care about what you have to say.
For an innocent bystander who enjoys reading people’s experiences in the hobby, your contributions in this particular thread are mostly just "ruining the vibe".
aka can't we all just get along?
Happy New Year and to a better 2024! (writing from bed with covid lol)
@nkphoto not everyone have relevant experience, and I did answer the question posted by OP, and immediately got attacked by people who have no relevant knowledge. But I guess when I am attacked I am ruining the vibe, black ain’t black, and white isn’t white, am I right?
@fredrik222 You seem to have this delusion that you are an expert on this topic. As far as we know, you are not. You have never posted a technical article that you have published in the appropriate journal nor shown established credentials to verify your claims. You have not even posted an audio system to show any relevant experience with audio nor have you shared your experiences, if any listening to and comparing various network switches in a competent audio system. You just copy/paste other peoples work and then make comments with a spin on it to support your claims. You're just a duck in a storm- "quack, quack, quack."
@nonoise so, the moderators did not like calling the guy what he is.
I have no idea as I never read your insult (which is all you really do).
for instance, he says all electronics are contained in the SFP, which is patently false. Open ANY switch and you will see this very clearly.
Isn't it clear that he's referring to the electronics inside the SFP that allow it to mate to the electronics in the switch? He knows there's electronics in the switch as he talks about electronics in the switch for practically the whole video. Were you drunk when you watched it?
As for everything else, I guess you didn't bother to call either of them and discuss the matter, from what you wrote.
@fredrik222 It would be a lot easier if you just called both of them and discussed it and got back to us with your findings. You've shown yourself not to be an honest broker so relying on you to educate us is a non starter.
Or better yet, let them know of this thread and how you feel about them. Maybe Bill or Chris could come on and speak their mind a bit? Others who've had been disparaged have and it helped to clear the air some.
I am an expert, however, you fall under the Dunning Kruger effect ... I called him a BSer. Because that is the truth ... he is just another clueless guy hawking gear that doesn't do anything, at best, at worst deliberately trying to make money of people who don't know better.
Nasty insults are no substitute for reason. They actually weaken whatever argument it is that you might be trying to make.
@cleeds The Dunning Kruger effect clearly shows that FACTS DO NOT MATTER to people who don't know them. But again, it is ok for everyone to jump on me when I answer the OP, but when I call them out for not knowing anything about the topic, I am the one insulting?
Like he says, you can get the Aruba, used, over at eBay. Just make sure it's from a seller with great feedback. There's tons of them online and you can scoop one up for $15 or go for a brand new one for $125.
Also, make sure it's IAP 225-US so it's configurable and legal to use.
No need to spend $3K for the one sold at GTT Audio but you'll have to source your own linear power supply and it won't have any of the mods in it but you'll be way ahead of the game for pennies on the dollar.
How am I not an honest broker? Point to one post where I wasn't able to back up my statements or claims.
You said a long time ago in a heated debate that until anyone smarter than you shows up, you're right and everyone else is wrong. That speaks volumes about your mindset. Something tells me that someone like Chris (dejitterit.com) is smarter than you and you're afraid to actually talk to the guy for fear of being shot down.
As for you claim:
In a residential setting, there is no RFI propagation through Ethernet, it is impossible.
I googled RFI on ethernet and got pages of all manner of people discussing it and how to get rid of it. Lots of them are engineers, radio operators, etc.
@nonoise ok, so first of, Microtik is a low end manufacturer that does everything in the CPU.
Then he says it ground canals on the circuit board, and that is complete wrong, you don't run ground from the SFP to the CPU, you run it to the ground.
Continuing - he says "electrical" jitter. There is no such thing. Does not exist, just made up to sound good I guess?
The reason it is "clean" is because it doesn't use FPGA, everything is run to 1 CPU. It's cheap designed, but for home use it won't matter.
Then he goes on and says that it is 10GBit chip, powerful and then says no one talks about the chip. Well, most modern designs don't use a CPU, they use FPGA, and then he talks about the throughput, yeah, every single switch worth its name is talking about it in specs, and not just jumbo frame throughput, but small frame throughput and frames per second.
he is however right about the more powerful the CPU is, the less jitter it will introduce. However, this is one of the reason why good switches don't use a CPU, they use FPGA.
Then he goes on a rant about double regulated voltage, also bunch of made up things. It does not improve stability of any component because it can handle two separate voltages. In fact, most higher end audio equipment like my Classe stack does the opposite to have more pure operation based on the voltage you use. So opposite of what he states.
"Dedicated ethernet port and dedicated isolation gadget" - oh my, where do I start here??? All made up again, according to the manufacture again, it's a LAN management port chip, nothing to do with isolation, link below.
Then he says it ground canals on the circuit board, and that is complete wrong, you don't run ground from the SFP to the CPU, you run it to the ground.
No, he doesn't. He says there's a ground plane on the back side of the circuit board and then says that the channels/ canals) allow for discrete paths for each input to the chip.
Continuing - he says "electrical" jitter. There is no such thing. Does not exist, just made up to sound good I guess?
He also mentioned "packet jitter" with "electrical jitter" and if you google electrical jitter there's tons of info on it online under that term.
Then he goes on a rant about double regulated voltage, also bunch of made up things. It does not improve stability of any component because it can handle two separate voltages. In fact, most higher end audio equipment like my Classe stack does the opposite to have more pure operation based on the voltage you use. So opposite of what he states.
He never ranted. Anyone can view the video above and see that. Also, he said it's double regulated to handle voltages ranging from 12 to 57 volts and not just two separate voltages so doesn't it perform like your higher end audio Classe which adjusts to the voltage used?
And yes it's a less expensive design using a CPU rather than a FPGA but no one is running thousands of threads simultaneously. That would be overkill. If you google 10 bit CPU you get lots of praise for what it can do. In fact, they go on to say it's overkill. You seem to enjoy damning with faint praise a lot as the unit is just fine for audio use.
he literally says the ground is on the backplane, and you can see that what he is running his hand over is between the SFPs and the CPU, so he is says the ground is connected to the CPU. That is what he is saying. He likely doesn’t understand what he is saying however.
Give me one article about electrical jitter? Electricity is in the analogue domain where jitter doesn’t exists. Are you perhaps confusing electrical and electronic?
it was definitely a rant. And double regulated doesn’t mean that you say it does,. It means it can handle two different ranges, for instance 200 - 240 and 100 - 120V. And he says it makes the component more stable, which it doesn’t.
a switch literally handles thousands of parallel threads per second, it is the only job of a switch.
And @nonoise, what about his ludicrous rant about isolation gadget? Pure fiction.
So, now you have proven yourself again to be a dishonest broker, for what?
No need to spend $3K for the one sold at GTT Audio but you'll have to source your own linear power supply and it won't have any of the mods in it but you'll be way ahead of the game for pennies on the dollar.
keep in mind that all communication devices are regulated by the FCC, and while they are not likely to care if you modify a switch as the worst case scenario is that you burn down your own house, it is very different with radios. It is illegal to sell and operate radios that have not been approved by the FCC, and that includes modifying existing radios. Unless of course his “modifications” to the Aruba access point doesn’t do anything , which is the most likely scenario, since any changes would need to include software update, and he doesn’t have source code access to the Aruba OS.
Let us begin your rehabilitation Freddy. After you get rehabilitated, go back to your Sith lord Majidimehr on the ASR mothership and serve as the rehabilitated, repurposed, audiogon Trojan warrior.
But, watch this (all pinned timestamps, live blind tests, etc) and let your mind start polka dancing first. This is step 1 of your rehabilitation.
Interesting video. He shows data of how performance degrades under load. I had wondered that in the back of my mind since my Audio network switch has my computer, back channel router and Apple TV plugged into it. The EE8 switch says to use one particular port for audio because it is isolated from the rest. I’m thinking about moving the SW-8 from the Apple TV and putting it next to the EE8. Plug everything into the SW-8 and then have one cable from the SW-8 go to the EE8 and on to my music server. I’ll see if that makes a difference. (I will also try just unplugging everything but the Audio from the EE8.)
I saw an improvement in the TV picture streaming when I put the SW-8 next to the Apple TV. My assumption was that the long, 100’ ethernet cable run picks up some noise. But maybe it is the multiple connections into the EE8 that are adding noise.
I moved the SW-8 next to the EE8. So the SW-8 is connected to the Apple TV at the front end of the long ethernet cable vs. the back end. I also left the computer unconnected- it doesn’t need an ethernet cable anyway. The TV picture streaming looks the same as when the SW-8 was at the back end of the long Ethernet cable and next to the Apple TV.
The EE8 now has one short connection coming from the SW-8 and one connection to my music server. It will be a couple of days before I listen to my stereo system. I shut the stereo down last night so I can get some yard work done the next couple of days.
4 hour video about two guys listening to music seems pretty useless, however, I did watch the section "some sort of conclusion" where the guy on the left says that the LHY and PURA "audiophile switches" sounds worse than the baseline, based on the timing and rhythm, so there is that.
and you realize you are the one in a cult right? You speak out against technologies and science you know nothing about, jumping up and down screaming “but I heard it, I did, I promise!”
how about an actual test and dissecting of an "audiophile" switch?
Interesting video. He shows data of how performance degrades under load.
This is insight you just got is below foundational knowledge for the topic of Networking.
And it doesn't really apply to switches that doesn't use a single CPU for all traffic handling under most circumstances. If you look at my Juniper EX220-C, the switch can handle 28 Gbit/s and 21 Mpps, which given the 14 ports equates to wire speed, i.e you can have every single port go 100% load and the switch can handle it. In contrast, the Switch X has a 10 Gbit/s backplane with 8 ports, so it can only handle 62.5% load on all interfaces before it dies. And these tests are with jumbo frames, not real life traffic, so it makes it most likely around 30% maximum load.
But that really won't matter if you use it for audio only. It does matter however if you use it as your primary switch and lots of other things plugged into it.
Again, this is so basic that it is ridicules, the concept of load affecting performance! But when you don't know anything about the topic, it is easy to be caught up details that really do not matter.
... how about an actual test and dissecting of an "audiophile" switch?
People have reported their results but you tend to dismiss them with a wave of the hand or a string of insults. Of course you could conduct your own test, couldn’t you?
But when you don’t know anything about the topic, it is easy to be caught up details that really do not matter.
No need to spend $3K for the one sold at GTT Audio but you'll have to source your own linear power supply and it won't have any of the mods in it but you'll be way ahead of the game for pennies on the dollar.
The mods are in the linear power supply...just to make that clear. I never said they were in the Aruba and neither did Chris. He mods the power supply unit for the Aruba, as far as I know.
he literally says the ground is on the backplane,
That's exactly what I said. Why the need to correct me on that?
and you can see that what he is running his hand over is between the SFPs and the CPU, so he is says the ground is connected to the CPU. That is what he is saying. He likely doesn’t understand what he is saying however.
How you get that from what he said and did explains a lot. Your implications are faulty and intentionally misleading. He's clearly talking about the path from the SFPs to the chip and not the ground. A wave of his hand while mentioning the ground on the backplane and then pointing out the clear paths of the signal doesn't mean he's saying they're related. He talks quickly but I have no problem following what he's saying.
Anyone who's on the fence about this needs only to go back and watch the video and it will be clear what he's talking about.
You don’t know until you try it. One thing is for sure, I will never listen to what some bratty IT kid has to say- thinks music is mp3 files.
Especially one who is doing/saying everything he can to increase his Youtube revenue- I stopped the video when it got to the part plugging his sponsor.
4 hour video about two guys listening to music seems pretty useless, however, I did watch the section "some sort of conclusion" where the guy on the left says that the LHY and PURA "audiophile switches" sounds worse than the baseline, based on the timing and rhythm, so there is that.
Some switches are worse, some switches are better...point is Freddy, differences can be perceived. I don’t fing know why such seemingly miniscule hardware changes in ethernet infrastructure are able to be perceived clearly during listening tests..
I’ve passed blind tests 20/20 times (statistically significant) when a couple of switches have been swapped on my rig. That’s where the Devry graduate IT guy’s "science" ends...i.e., when guys start passing blind tests enough times for it to be statistically significant.
Here’s my follow up to moving network switches around. Yesterday, I moved the SW-8 to the front end of the long ethernet cable run vs at the back end next to the Apple TV box. I saw no difference in the streaming TV picture with that move. I also connected the back channel ethernet cable and connected the EE8 (English Electric 8) to the LHY SW-8 switch. I am leaving my computer disconnected.
I hear an improvement in the sound with the EE8 carrying only the one connection in and the one connection out to my music server. It is a small improvement so if I had just the one switch I could live with that. I’m not saying two audio grade network switches are needed to isolate the stereo from everything else but it seems to help the switch from an audio perspective if it is not connected to several peripheral devices. And I’m sure the results will likely vary for different people and differing situations. I suspect disconnecting my computer from the network switch had the most influence.
To sum up, the EE8 originally had 4 outbound connections (Computer, Back channel, TV and Music Streamer) and one in from the router. And finally, I’d say that the EE8 sounds better to me than the SW-8. Again, not a big difference in sound.
The clarity and resolving power of my system now is remarkable. The downside to that is hearing in great detail flaws in recordings. For example, in just this past week I have come across three tracks with clipping microphones. The one crackled so badly it triggered anxiety in me. I played it back and confirmed it was the mic. First, the crackling is repeatable and second, the crackling noise was in the image on the sound stage- not directly at one speaker or the other as would be the case if a driver had distortion. It is a little unsettling hearing these clicks, pops, hum in cords and now even clipping mics. And this detail can be heard in streaming songs. So be careful what you wish for.
I also had my son with his young ears listen to a spinning CD, the same CD ripped to a FLAC on my music server and then the 44.1/16 streaming FLAC and finally, the high res version streaming. He didn’t know which was which. His conclusions mirrored my own. Spinning CD and local FLAC- no difference. Streaming 44.1/16- very close to the local FLAC. Hi res (96/24) sounded slightly better than the other three versions. My son said the bass was better, I agree but also noted a more airy soundstage. I want to say a bit more color or better, a richer sound overall. I’m using Roon/Rock with straight through PCM via USB to my DAC. My DAC double clocks the incoming USB. It also reclocks the AES coming in from my CD Transport.
Was thinking about upgrading my streamer but I’m inclined to stand on what I have. I think a great DAC goes a long way when complemented with a decent streamer and a good clean ethernet signal in. I would hope the higher end music servers can forgo the signal conditioning- ie. one could leave out audio grade network switches but if I were to spend big on a music streamer/server no point not having a good network switch.
Last comment is that both the SW-8 and the EE8 switches have internal Oven controlled clocks. Seems to make a difference and that is the most technical thing I know about these switches. Yes, I diagnosed the SW-8 with my multimeter and outside guidance- they told me what the voltages should be at various connection points and then I isolated the shorted circuit on my own. No big deal. The circuit boards are plug and play inside the SW-8. Very well built.
Good one. I do have some graphs on my system page showing how effective spring isolation can be-mechanically. Isolation improves the sound but I have no proof of that other than my own experience which has also been corroborated by others. Being an ME, not a EE I don't dig too deep into electronics- beyond rebuilding crossovers and such.
Thank you for sharing your observations. You have a wonderful system in a beautiful venue.
I have a question. Does streaming as good or better than your CD player? Your beautiful vinyl rig? If not, you definitely owe it to yourself to try an appropriate complementary streamer. Given your excellent system, I would recommend a flagship Aurrender.
Thank you. I'd say that streaming hi res is better than CD. Local Hi res files have even a bit more body to the images. My vinyl rig is most excellent but this new DAC gives it a run for its money. Sound stage size and imaging are close to identical now between vinyl and digital. I think the digital now has my vinyl beat on detail and resolution. I wouldn't have believed that at all possible just a few years ago. And now the digital highs and bass compete with the best of the best vinyl.
I'm on the fence about a top end streamer. That's why I have had my son in here evaluating with me the various formats this past week with my current streamer. It is no slouch. Lots of cache ram and I am using an upgraded power supply. Very quiet. Looking at the K50 but wish I could audition the top Aurender and the K50 in my own house before spending that much on a streamer because at the moment I can't see how I would realize that size of a gain.
Thanks for posting your listening impressions. I agree with @ghdprenticerecommendation to audition a top flight streamer in your system. Between the two brands, any dealer should be able to afford you a in-home audition without any obligation. Keep in mind, Aurender is not ROON compatible yet so there would be a bit of learning curve.
I prefer Aurender’s Conductor App by a mile over ROON in my system. My emphasis is always on SQ (do no harm to digital bits) over a fancy UI. Congrats again on such a beautiful system.
Thanks again. I don’t even know what I don’t know with regards to high end streamers.
I read the Aurrender manuals and am a little intimidated by their software- well really just the idea of learning a new operating system. I also wonder how my Roon music library would transfer to the Aurrender app.
The Conductor app is well laid out and easy to navigate. No worries on music library, Conductor app curates your library off ‘network’ or directly connected via USB to any of the Aurender streamers. One thing, I really appreciate about Conductor app is, it keeps your rips in a separate folder (you can also create multiple folders based on your personal preferences). I prefer browsing my rips vs Qobuz stream separately vs all jumbled together as in ROON.
you are really funny and you should read what you wrote:
No need to spend $3K for the one sold at GTT Audio but you'll have to source your own linear power supply and it won't have any of the mods in it but you'll be way ahead of the game for pennies on the dollar.
The mods are in the linear power supply...just to make that clear. I never said they were in the Aruba and neither did Chris. He mods the power supply unit for the Aruba, as far as I know.
he literally says the ground is on the backplane,
That's exactly what I said. Why the need to correct me on that?
and you can see that what he is running his hand over is between the SFPs and the CPU, so he is says the ground is connected to the CPU. That is what he is saying. He likely doesn’t understand what he is saying however.
How you get that from what he said and did explains a lot. Your implications are faulty and intentionally misleading. He's clearly talking about the path from the SFPs to the chip and not the ground. A wave of his hand while mentioning the ground on the backplane and then pointing out the clear paths of the signal doesn't mean he's saying they're related. He talks quickly but I have no problem following what he's saying.
Anyone who's on the fence about this needs only to go back and watch the video and it will be clear what he's talking about.
All the best,
Nonoise
first you agree he says ground runs to SFP to the CPU, then you disagree. Either way, any one can watch video where he clearly says the ground runs from SFP to CPU, which it does not. Again, like so many other parts of the video, he has no idea what he is talking about. And that is the point, you think he is informing, but he just makes things up as he goes, since he has no clue. And that is why “audiophile” networking is just pure cult, there is no science or technology behind, just a bunch of people do not know the first thing about the topic being fooled by people who makes things up. End of story. Enjoy being swindled, and the cult membership card.
... how about an actual test and dissecting of an "audiophile" switch?
People have reported their results but you tend to dismiss them with a wave of the hand or a string of insults. Of course you could conduct your own test, couldn’t you?
But when you don’t know anything about the topic, it is easy to be caught up details that really do not matter.
Nasty insults are no substitute for reason.
dismiss what? Person A without knowledge says the switch makes it worse, Person B without knowledge says it makes it better, is that what you are talking about? Or how about 100% of people with knowledge who says it doesn’t do anything?
What is clear is that the videos referenced in this thread are so faulty and devoid of facts that it is laughable. Come on, does any one really believe anything from a guy that says “isolation gadget”, when he describes components he supposedly modifies? And it also a plain lie, easily verifiable.
first you agree he says ground runs to SFP to the CPU, then you disagree. Either way, any one can watch video where he clearly says the ground runs from SFP to CPU, which it does not.
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