This one will probably invite some withering mockery, but I will ask....
I only stream, and my streamer (Bryston BDP) is fed with an ethernet cable that runs back to my router. Literally back to my router; there are enough output jacks on the router that I have a long run to the streamer and no ethernet switch in the chain (or the house system for that matter). (There is an Eno filter right before the streamer).
I happen to OWN a nice LHY ethernet switch. I am assuming that there is no reason to use it in this configuration, that is, assuming there are noisier switches, and less noisy switches, there is still no net benefit of adding any switch to this chain. But maybe, just maybe, in the metaphysics of electrons that I do not understand, there is some reason why a nice switch prior to the streamer accomplishes something (in theory...I get that I can A/B test and try to fool myself whether I can hear a difference). For the first person with a correct answer, I will mail a nice $600 switch to the address you specify! (JK)
@nonoise again, you can’t argue facts, so personal attacks. Again, at 1:41 in the video, he runs his fingers over the channels from the SFPs to the CPU and says this “is each set of signals that come in and then go directly to the chip notice that there's nothing else around them this important because that doesn't that means you're not going to get interference from other circuitry um also on the back side of the board this whole area is a is a ground plane so these are.” Copy paste from the transcript of the video.
but you can only lead a horse to water, I debunked everything that guy said in the video, showed you with links, and you still can’t admit it is humbug.
Being on a crusade to save but plundering all in your path. Quit your holier than thou attitude. As I have mentioned, state your truth, and then disappear. Instead you take over threads with an arrogant attitude that is rank.
You belittle others with your knowledge of one aspect of digital, which does not translate well into audio.
A device used in casual conversations to separate two different but related things.
Channels from the SFP to the CPU are direct but it doesn’t mean you’re not going to get interference from other circuitry...um, also...ground plane on the backside aids in isolation, would just be another way of saying it and not that the channels are the ground. Humbug indeed.
Maybe double up on the meds?
That, and you’re a fine one to call out anyone for personal attacks.
@nonoiseoh wow. You can’t admit you are wrong ever so you continue the personal attacks? So, at 1:41 he clearly states that the backplane is the ground plane, with the channels being clean, he reinforces this at 4:20 what he called ground plane these channels go from the SFP to the CPU.
I know it is a lot, these things call facts. And I would really advise you stop projecting and advertise that you have issues with pills. Taking more when you face facts won’t help.
and what about the electrical jitter? Isolation gadget? And so on. Not enough meds to handle all that?
So I'll show my (potential) lack of knowledge, the stream coming in to your modem and router is digital. It's 1s and 0s. Why would we be concerned about noise along an ethernet cable. Noise doesn't come into play until the signal's past the DAC? What am I missing?
That's just it- it is not 1's and 0's coming into your modem. It is a high frequency carrier wave that is frequency modulated. On top of that wires are antennas so additional noise is picked up by these cables along the way. That modulated signal must be converted back into digital words by the modem. Going any deeper than that will require a considerable investment of time and comprehension by the researcher. Electronic communications has a long history of development going back to the first telegraphs.
The telegraph seems to be a good analogy, if not a very simplified example of digital communication. The system employed dots and dashes as a form of code to convey information from one operator to another. Using wet cell batteries and copper wound coils to form solenoids, this simple electrical circuit would mirror the taps of an electrical switch at one end with taps by the solenoid at the other end. Standard protocols were developed to signal the beginning of a message and end of a message. And of course, if the receiving operator missed a dot or dash in the process then the message became garbled.
As the use of the telegraph spread, technical problems emerged. Signals grew too weak over long distances to ensure the receiver got an intelligible message. They increased the voltages to enable longer distances and also had to use operators as relays- resend messages on towards their destination. The first transatlantic cable was laid prior to the Civil War but was a complete failure. No message could be successfully transmitted across the ocean. It required further research and understanding of the effects of seawater on wires and electrical signals before the first successful transatlantic signal could be sent.
My point is that there are no simple answers or solutions to streaming music digitally. I'm already talking over my head here so I will stop. But suffice it to say, understanding and learning comes only with great effort- with trials and error and learning from other's efforts. A closed mind learns nothing. An open mind can learn anything.
Point/Counterpoint on these forums has become so tiresome.
So many of these threads turn into pissing matches when two sides each take absolute but opposite positions. Many times, when I look into the stuff myself, the reality seems to fall somewhere in-between whether the issue being argued is "scientifically possible" and whether it is "likely to be audible in a hi-fi system."
A by-product of these arguments occurs when manufacturers prey on these debates and develop (expensive) "solutions" that are marketed as miracle cures for whatever the alleged issue is that is somehow limiting a listener's satisfaction with their hi-fi system. How many "audiophiles" have a box of no longer used "miracle cures" on their shelf? Just go back and read posts from 5, 10, or 15 years ago about audiophile doo-dads that were considered "almost mandatory" yet are either no longer being used or have been replaced by different (and usually much more expensive) doo-dads. Examples might include certain fuses, DBS wire biasing, Shakti this or that, crystals, certain USB and Ethernet filters, etc., etc.
This Ethernet cable issue seems to have some basis in reality in that yes, running an Ethernet cable next to certain types of power cables/lines can cause EMI and, yes in certain cases, this can cause minor to major degradation of a digital signal. However, the specific situation causing this issue is mostly unlikely and can wholly be avoided by separating the Ethernet cable by even a small distance. In addition, such minor data loss is mostly corrected through Ethernet internal error correction and retry protocols. As well, it seems the Ethernet spec (IEEE802.3) has specific requirements for isolation and resistance to current and voltage spikes to maintain performance in variable EMI and RFI scenarios as well as for electrical safety. As a result, it seems the risk of typical Ethernet cables properly run in a residential environment affecting an audio signal (while not impossible) is probably somewhere between minimal and non-existent. Here is an interesting discussion of the issue, and here is some related stuff on the Roon Labs Community forum.
"But I hear it in my system!" This starts round two of these debates pitting auditory abilities and system capabilities on one side, against possible psychological factors affecting what people believe they hear on the other. There is no winning these arguments since the two sides cannot agree on suitable measurable metrics, or even agreeable protocols for conducting listening tests. On one side, "If you cannot accurately select the cable/tweak/etc. statistically better than 7 out of 10 times, then how can it be making any difference?" The other side says, "DBT doesn't work, and only through long-term listening in your own system can you accurately hear what something is doing." The real problem is not about measurements and protocols but rather that everybody wants to be "right."
The only solution seems to be agreeing on no solution. IOW, share observations and experiences, and let go of the need to be right. If somebody wants to spend an exorbitant amount of money on a rock that is sold to improve SQ when placed in the same room as an audio system, then simply say, "cool, enjoy your rock."
Why would we be concerned about noise along an ethernet cable. Noise doesn't come into play until the signal's past the DAC?
To quote Hans Beekhuyzen: "But it does. It clearly does".
Long before we could explain why the sky appears blue, we all observed it with our senses and agreed that it was blue, but we didn't know why. The funny part is usually when humans ask they are too young to understand the answer, and by the time many are old enough to understand the answer they don't care anymore. You know, that innate curiousity doesn't exist anymore.
This is where we are at- many of us are agreeing that ethernet filters do make our kits sound better, therefore we conclude they must be absorbing and filtering out electrical noise. At some point we will be able to prove it and explain it to those who question it before observing the outcome using our senses. But for many we don't care about the reason, we just know that it does. And many probably wouldn't understand the answer anyway.
What am I missing?
A better soundstage, and a smoother, less digital, and more enjoyable sound. Yes, I am a recent believer.
Digital transmission (external to a chip) is typically an analog waveform which “simulates” the ones and zeros over a cable. Most believe it is either a one or a zero but the fact is the analog waveform is a voltage approximation (the better the approximation, the better the signal) can be affected by noise, cable length and the veracity of the signal transmission. Its critical to do your own research because there are parts of the chain where the signal tranmission is fragile and susceptible to external interference and the physics of analog signal transmission absolutely apply.
There are other parts of the chain where there is little to no effect. You need to understand which is which because so many argue one side can/can’t be affected/influenced by applying their knowledge and understanding of one side of the equation to the other side where they believe their logic should apply equally. It doesnt work that way. I’m not smart enough to explain, let alone understand, the intricacies but I am smart enough to understand when I clearly hear an improvement to discount the opinion of those who swear there can’t be.
Trust the science and trust your ears but most importantly, we must have a credible constant to compare against….and our memory and how we think something sounded is fallable in seconds.
So if I hear a tree fall while walking in the woods, should I assume that a tree really did not fall because 1) I did not see the tree falling and 2) I expected to hear a tree fall while in the woods and so therefore I heard one fall. There is a third option: There are no trees in the woods…. (There is no spoon.). Oooooh.
To further refine: if two tress fall, one after the other, and with the first one you had an ethernet filter in your pocket and the second one you did not and yet, they soundeded identical….well, then the filter makes no discernable difference.
If you can’t prove to me that the tree actually fell, then you are delusional. Confirmation bias is very powerful, you know. We all know you wanted to hear that tree fall.
To further refine: if two tress fall, one after the other, and with the first one you had an ethernet filter in your pocket and the second one you did not and yet, they soundeded identical….well, then the filter makes no discernable difference.
I never go into the woods without my Ethernet filter…period! I need to be able to determine 1 or 0 trees fell.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
How m