Relationship between Ethernet Switch and SQ

+1 @f208frank .  I had the Tempus in my system for some time and it is excellent.

Another nice product from Network Acoustics.  I have their Muon filter also.

I never go into the woods without my Ethernet filter…period!

Some woods may require something with a bit more power, velocity, and range. Accuracy is often crucial :)

The tempus switch from network acoustics has done my system wonders. I also use their muon pro. Wonderful stuff. 

 

ghasley

2,370 posts

01-15-2024 at 12:23pm 

@tonywinga 

To further refine: if two tress fall, one after the other, and with the first one you had an ethernet filter in your pocket and the second one you did not and yet, they soundeded identical….well, then the filter makes no discernable difference.

I never go into the woods without my Ethernet filter…period! I need to be able to determine 1 or 0 trees fell. 

@ghasley your pocket wasn't revealing enough. Save up for a better coat. 

If you can’t prove to me that the tree actually fell, then you are delusional. Confirmation bias is very powerful, you know. We all know you wanted to hear that tree fall. 

@tonywinga 

To further refine: if two tress fall, one after the other, and with the first one you had an ethernet filter in your pocket and the second one you did not and yet, they soundeded identical….well, then the filter makes no discernable difference.

So if I hear a tree fall while walking in the woods, should I assume that a tree really did not fall because 1) I did not see the tree falling and 2) I expected to hear a tree fall while in the woods and so therefore I heard one fall.  There is a third option:  There are no trees in the woods…. (There is no spoon.). Oooooh.

Digital transmission (external to a chip) is typically an analog waveform which “simulates” the ones and zeros over a cable. Most believe it is either a one or a zero but the fact is the analog waveform is a voltage approximation (the better the approximation, the better the signal) can be affected by noise, cable length and the veracity of the signal transmission. Its critical to do your own research because there are parts of the chain where the signal tranmission is fragile and susceptible to external interference and the physics of analog signal transmission absolutely apply.

There are other parts of the chain where there is little to no effect. You need to understand which is which because so many argue one side can/can’t be affected/influenced by applying their knowledge and understanding of one side of the equation to the other side where they believe their logic should apply equally. It doesnt work that way. I’m not smart enough to explain, let alone understand, the intricacies but I am smart enough to understand when I clearly hear an improvement to discount the opinion of those who swear there can’t be.

Trust the science and trust your ears but most importantly, we must have a credible constant to compare against….and our memory and how we think something sounded is fallable in seconds.

 Why would we be concerned about noise along an ethernet cable.  Noise doesn't come into play until the signal's past the DAC?

To quote Hans Beekhuyzen: "But it does. It clearly does". 

Long before we could explain why the sky appears blue, we all observed it with our senses and agreed that it was blue, but we didn't know why. The funny part is usually when humans ask they are too young to understand the answer, and by the time many are old enough to understand the answer they don't care anymore. You know, that innate curiousity doesn't exist anymore. 

This is where we are at- many of us are agreeing that ethernet filters do make our kits sound better, therefore we conclude they must be absorbing and filtering out electrical noise. At some point we will be able to prove it and explain it to those who question it before observing the outcome using our senses. But for many we don't care about the reason, we just know that it does. And many probably wouldn't understand the answer anyway. 

What am I missing? 

A better soundstage, and a smoother, less digital, and more enjoyable sound. Yes, I am a recent believer. 

Point/Counterpoint on these forums has become so tiresome.

So many of these threads turn into pissing matches when two sides each take absolute but opposite positions.  Many times, when I look into the stuff myself, the reality seems to fall somewhere in-between whether the issue being argued is "scientifically possible" and whether it is "likely to be audible in a hi-fi system." 

A by-product of these arguments occurs when manufacturers prey on these debates and develop (expensive) "solutions" that are marketed as miracle cures for whatever the alleged issue is that is somehow limiting a listener's satisfaction with their hi-fi system.  How many "audiophiles" have a box of no longer used "miracle cures" on their shelf?  Just go back and read posts from 5, 10, or 15 years ago about audiophile doo-dads that were considered "almost mandatory" yet are either no longer being used or have been replaced by different (and usually much more expensive) doo-dads.  Examples might include certain fuses, DBS wire biasing, Shakti this or that, crystals, certain USB and Ethernet filters, etc., etc.

This Ethernet cable issue seems to have some basis in reality in that yes, running an Ethernet cable next to certain types of power cables/lines can cause EMI and, yes in certain cases, this can cause minor to major degradation of a digital signal.  However, the specific situation causing this issue is mostly unlikely and can wholly be avoided by separating the Ethernet cable by even a small distance.  In addition, such minor data loss is mostly corrected through Ethernet internal error correction and retry protocols.  As well, it seems the Ethernet spec (IEEE802.3) has specific requirements for isolation and resistance to current and voltage spikes to maintain performance in variable EMI and RFI scenarios as well as for electrical safety.  As a result, it seems the risk of typical Ethernet cables properly run in a residential environment affecting an audio signal (while not impossible) is probably somewhere between minimal and non-existent.   Here is an interesting discussion of the issue, and here is some related stuff on the Roon Labs Community forum.

"But I hear it in my system!"  This starts round two of these debates pitting auditory abilities and system capabilities on one side, against possible psychological factors affecting what people believe they hear on the other.  There is no winning these arguments since the two sides cannot agree on suitable measurable metrics, or even agreeable protocols for conducting listening tests.  On one side, "If you cannot accurately select the cable/tweak/etc. statistically better than 7 out of 10 times, then how can it be making any difference?"  The other side says, "DBT doesn't work, and only through long-term listening in your own system can you accurately hear what something is doing."  The real problem is not about measurements and protocols but rather that everybody wants to be "right."

The only solution seems to be agreeing on no solution.  IOW, share observations and experiences, and let go of the need to be right.  If somebody wants to spend an exorbitant amount of money on a rock that is sold to improve SQ when placed in the same room as an audio system, then simply say, "cool, enjoy your rock."

That's just it- it is not 1's and 0's coming into your modem.  It is a high frequency carrier wave that is frequency modulated.  On top of that wires are antennas so additional noise is picked up by these cables along the way.  That modulated signal must be converted back into digital words by the modem.  Going any deeper than that will require a considerable investment of time and comprehension by the researcher.  Electronic communications has a long history of development going back to the first telegraphs.

The telegraph seems to be a good analogy, if not a very simplified example of digital communication.  The system employed dots and dashes as a form of code to convey information from one operator to another.  Using wet cell batteries and copper wound coils to form solenoids, this simple electrical circuit would mirror the taps of an electrical switch at one end with taps by the solenoid at the other end.  Standard protocols were developed to signal the beginning of a message and end of a message.  And of course, if the receiving operator missed a dot or dash in the process then the message became garbled.

As the use of the telegraph spread, technical problems emerged.  Signals grew too weak over long distances to ensure the receiver got an intelligible message.  They increased the voltages to enable longer distances and also had to use operators as relays- resend messages on towards their destination.  The first transatlantic cable was laid prior to the Civil War but was a complete failure.  No message could be successfully transmitted across the ocean.  It required further research and understanding of the effects of seawater on wires and electrical signals before the first successful transatlantic signal could be sent.

My point is that there are no simple answers or solutions to streaming music digitally.  I'm already talking over my head here so I will stop.  But suffice it to say, understanding and learning comes only with great effort- with trials and error and learning from other's efforts.  A closed mind learns nothing.  An open mind can learn anything.

So I'll show my (potential) lack of knowledge, the stream coming in to your modem and router is digital.  It's 1s and 0s.  Why would we be concerned about noise along an ethernet cable.  Noise doesn't come into play until the signal's past the DAC? What am I missing? 

How m

How many times do we have to relive this?

It's quite funny someone mentioned the word trolls, and someone else responded to it like someone called their name. 

fredrik222

... I get why people want to be in the cult of anti facts ...

Of course. That's your world.

My two step guiding principles to squash trolls,

1. Simply ignore them.
2. Think twice before replying.

@fredrik222 ....meh...

@nonoise oh wow. You can’t admit you are wrong ever so you continue the personal attacks? So, at 1:41 he clearly states that the backplane is the ground plane, with the channels being clean, he reinforces this at 4:20 what he called ground plane these channels go from the SFP to the CPU. 
 

I know it is a lot, these things call facts. And I would really advise you stop projecting and advertise that you have issues with pills. Taking more when you face facts won’t help.

and what about the electrical jitter? Isolation gadget? And so on. Not enough meds to handle all that?
 

Wait, is this him? 

...um, also...

A device used in casual conversations to separate two different but related things.

Channels from the SFP to the CPU are direct but it doesn’t mean you’re not going to get interference from other circuitry...um, also...ground plane on the backside aids in isolation, would just be another way of saying it and not that the channels are the ground. Humbug indeed.

Maybe double up on the meds?

That, and you’re a fine one to call out anyone for personal attacks.

All the best,
Nonoise

Being on a crusade to save but plundering all in your path. Quit your holier than thou attitude. As I have mentioned, state your truth, and then disappear. Instead you take over threads with an arrogant attitude that is rank.

You belittle others with your knowledge of one aspect of digital, which does not translate well into audio.

My ears know better than to listen to you.

So I won't.

@nonoise  again, you can’t argue facts, so personal attacks. Again, at 1:41 in the video, he runs his fingers over the channels from the SFPs to the CPU and says this “is each set of signals that come in and then go directly to the chip notice that there's nothing else around them this important because that doesn't that means you're not going to get interference from other circuitry um also on the back side of the board this whole area is a is a ground plane so these are.” Copy paste from the transcript of the video.

but you can only lead a horse to water, I debunked everything that guy said in the video, showed you with links, and you still can’t admit it is humbug. 

first you agree he says ground runs to SFP to the CPU, then you disagree. Either way, any one can watch video where he clearly says the ground runs from SFP to CPU, which it does not. 

I think I get it now....you're on meds, right?

All the best,
Nonoise

@cleeds 

fredrik222

... how about an actual test and dissecting of an "audiophile" switch?

People have reported their results but you tend to dismiss them with a wave of the hand or a string of insults. Of course you could conduct your own test, couldn’t you?

But when you don’t know anything about the topic, it is easy to be caught up details that really do not matter.

Nasty insults are no substitute for reason.

dismiss what? Person A without knowledge says the switch makes it worse, Person B without knowledge says it makes it better, is that what you are talking about? Or how about 100% of people with knowledge who says it doesn’t do anything?

What is clear is that the videos referenced in this thread are so faulty and devoid of facts that it is laughable. Come on, does any one really believe anything from a guy that says “isolation gadget”, when he describes components he supposedly modifies? And it also a plain lie, easily verifiable.

@nonoise 

you are really funny and you should read what you wrote:

No need to spend $3K for the one sold at GTT Audio but you'll have to source your own linear power supply and it won't have any of the mods in it but you'll be way ahead of the game for pennies on the dollar.

The mods are in the linear power supply...just to make that clear. I never said they were in the Aruba and neither did Chris. He mods the power supply unit for the  Aruba, as far as I know. 

he literally says the ground is on the backplane, 

That's exactly what I said. Why the need to correct me on that?

and you can see that what he is running his hand over is between the SFPs and the CPU, so he is says the ground is connected to the CPU. That is what he is saying. He likely doesn’t understand what he is saying however.

How you get that from what he said and did explains a lot. Your implications are faulty and intentionally misleading. He's clearly talking about the path from the SFPs to the chip and not the ground. A wave of his hand while mentioning the ground on the backplane and then pointing out the clear paths of the signal doesn't mean he's saying they're related. He talks quickly but I have no problem following what he's saying. 

Anyone who's on the fence about this needs only to go back and watch the video and it will be clear what he's talking about.

All the best,
Nonoise

first you agree he says ground runs to SFP to the CPU, then you disagree. Either way, any one can watch video where he clearly says the ground runs from SFP to CPU, which it does not. Again, like so many other parts of the video, he has no idea what he is talking about. And that is the point, you think he is informing, but he just makes things up as he goes, since he has no clue. And that is why “audiophile”  networking is just pure cult, there is no science or technology behind, just a bunch of people do not know the first thing about the topic being fooled by people who makes things up. End of story. Enjoy being swindled, and the cult membership card.

@deep_333 cult is cult, you are just one step away from drinking cyanide when John Swenson tells you to.

@tonywinga 

The Conductor app is well laid out and easy to navigate. No worries on music library, Conductor app curates your library off ‘network’ or directly connected via USB to any of the Aurender streamers. One thing, I really appreciate about Conductor app is, it keeps your rips in a separate folder (you can also create multiple folders based on your personal preferences). I prefer browsing my rips vs Qobuz stream separately vs all jumbled together as in ROON. 

Thanks again.  I don’t even know what I don’t know with regards to high end streamers.  
I read the Aurrender manuals and am a little intimidated by their software- well really just the idea of learning a new operating system.  I also wonder how my Roon music library would transfer to the Aurrender app. 

@tonywinga 

Thanks for posting your listening impressions. I agree with @ghdprentice recommendation to audition a top flight streamer in your system. Between the two brands, any dealer should be able to afford you a in-home audition without any obligation. Keep in mind, Aurender is not ROON compatible yet so there would be a bit of learning curve. 

I prefer Aurender’s Conductor App by a mile over ROON in my system. My emphasis is always on SQ (do no harm to digital bits) over a fancy UI. Congrats again on such a beautiful system. 

Thank you.  I'd say that streaming hi res is better than CD.  Local Hi res files have even a bit more body to the images.  My vinyl rig is most excellent but this new DAC gives it a run for its money.  Sound stage size and imaging are close to identical now between vinyl and digital.  I think the digital now has my vinyl beat on detail and resolution.  I wouldn't have believed that at all possible just a few years ago.  And now the digital highs and bass compete with the best of the best vinyl.   

I'm on the fence about a top end streamer.  That's why I have had my son in here evaluating with me the various formats this past week with my current streamer.  It is no slouch.  Lots of cache ram and I am using an upgraded power supply.  Very quiet.  Looking at the K50 but wish I could audition the top Aurender and the K50 in my own house before spending that much on a streamer because at the moment I can't see how I would realize that size of a gain.

@tonywinga 

Thank you for sharing your observations. You have a wonderful system in a beautiful venue. 
 

I have a question. Does streaming as good or better than your CD player? Your beautiful vinyl rig? If not, you definitely owe it to yourself to try an appropriate complementary streamer. Given your excellent system, I would recommend a flagship Aurrender.

Good one.  I do have some graphs on my system page showing how effective spring isolation can be-mechanically.  Isolation improves the sound but I have no proof of that other than my own experience which has also been corroborated by others.  Being an ME, not a EE I don't dig too deep into electronics- beyond rebuilding crossovers and such.

Prove it. Using a logarithmic graph. Ha ha, just kidding.

Here’s my follow up to moving network switches around. Yesterday, I moved the SW-8 to the front end of the long ethernet cable run vs at the back end next to the Apple TV box. I saw no difference in the streaming TV picture with that move. I also connected the back channel ethernet cable and connected the EE8 (English Electric 8) to the LHY SW-8 switch. I am leaving my computer disconnected.

I hear an improvement in the sound with the EE8 carrying only the one connection in and the one connection out to my music server. It is a small improvement so if I had just the one switch I could live with that. I’m not saying two audio grade network switches are needed to isolate the stereo from everything else but it seems to help the switch from an audio perspective if it is not connected to several peripheral devices. And I’m sure the results will likely vary for different people and differing situations. I suspect disconnecting my computer from the network switch had the most influence.

To sum up, the EE8 originally had 4 outbound connections (Computer, Back channel, TV and Music Streamer) and one in from the router. And finally, I’d say that the EE8 sounds better to me than the SW-8. Again, not a big difference in sound.

The clarity and resolving power of my system now is remarkable. The downside to that is hearing in great detail flaws in recordings. For example, in just this past week I have come across three tracks with clipping microphones. The one crackled so badly it triggered anxiety in me. I played it back and confirmed it was the mic. First, the crackling is repeatable and second, the crackling noise was in the image on the sound stage- not directly at one speaker or the other as would be the case if a driver had distortion. It is a little unsettling hearing these clicks, pops, hum in cords and now even clipping mics. And this detail can be heard in streaming songs. So be careful what you wish for.

I also had my son with his young ears listen to a spinning CD, the same CD ripped to a FLAC on my music server and then the 44.1/16 streaming FLAC and finally, the high res version streaming. He didn’t know which was which. His conclusions mirrored my own. Spinning CD and local FLAC- no difference. Streaming 44.1/16- very close to the local FLAC. Hi res (96/24) sounded slightly better than the other three versions. My son said the bass was better, I agree but also noted a more airy soundstage. I want to say a bit more color or better, a richer sound overall. I’m using Roon/Rock with straight through PCM via USB to my DAC. My DAC double clocks the incoming USB. It also reclocks the AES coming in from my CD Transport.

Was thinking about upgrading my streamer but I’m inclined to stand on what I have. I think a great DAC goes a long way when complemented with a decent streamer and a good clean ethernet signal in. I would hope the higher end music servers can forgo the signal conditioning- ie. one could leave out audio grade network switches but if I were to spend big on a music streamer/server no point not having a good network switch.

Last comment is that both the SW-8 and the EE8 switches have internal Oven controlled clocks. Seems to make a difference and that is the most technical thing I know about these switches. Yes, I diagnosed the SW-8 with my multimeter and outside guidance- they told me what the voltages should be at various connection points and then I isolated the shorted circuit on my own. No big deal. The circuit boards are plug and play inside the SW-8. Very well built.

4 hour video about two guys listening to music seems pretty useless, however, I did watch the section "some sort of conclusion" where the guy on the left says that the LHY and PURA "audiophile switches" sounds worse than the baseline, based on the timing and rhythm, so there is that.

Some switches are worse, some switches are better...point is Freddy, differences can be perceived. I don’t fing know why such seemingly miniscule hardware changes in ethernet infrastructure are able to be perceived clearly during listening tests..

I’ve passed blind tests 20/20 times (statistically significant) when a couple of switches have been swapped on my rig. That’s where the Devry graduate IT guy’s "science" ends...i.e., when guys start passing blind tests enough times for it to be statistically significant.

You don’t know until you try it.  One thing is for sure, I will never listen to what some bratty IT kid has to say- thinks music is mp3 files.  

Especially one who is doing/saying everything he can to increase his Youtube revenue- I stopped the video when it got to the part plugging his sponsor. 

When actual knowledge of network technology is unforgivably gauche in this discussion, the thread was never “uphill”…

Do I need to be a French trained sous chef to have an opinion on a great versus a mediocre tasting hollandaise sauce? 

@mathiasmingus 

Hope you enjoyed the holidays. Did you get your BDP3 yet, any further updates on LinkUp CAT 8 cable and LHY switch. 

Yet another good thread spoiled by Freddie

Network technology is just one link in a long chain when it comes to streaming as a source. Some here can’t see the forest for the trees.

When actual knowledge of network technology is unforgivably gauche in this discussion, the thread was never “uphill”…

Man did this go downhill faster than Lindsey Vonn…

No need to spend $3K for the one sold at GTT Audio but you'll have to source your own linear power supply and it won't have any of the mods in it but you'll be way ahead of the game for pennies on the dollar.

The mods are in the linear power supply...just to make that clear. I never said they were in the Aruba and neither did Chris. He mods the power supply unit for the  Aruba, as far as I know. 

he literally says the ground is on the backplane, 

That's exactly what I said. Why the need to correct me on that?

and you can see that what he is running his hand over is between the SFPs and the CPU, so he is says the ground is connected to the CPU. That is what he is saying. He likely doesn’t understand what he is saying however.

How you get that from what he said and did explains a lot. Your implications are faulty and intentionally misleading. He's clearly talking about the path from the SFPs to the chip and not the ground. A wave of his hand while mentioning the ground on the backplane and then pointing out the clear paths of the signal doesn't mean he's saying they're related. He talks quickly but I have no problem following what he's saying. 

Anyone who's on the fence about this needs only to go back and watch the video and it will be clear what he's talking about.

All the best,
Nonoise

You don’t know until you try it.  One thing is for sure, I will never listen to what some bratty IT kid has to say- thinks music is mp3 files.