Ready, set, comment! Speaker cables don’t make a difference?
Audioholics will be doing another video on this at 4pm (I assume Eastern), today. Rather than comment on it after the fact, some here might want to jump into the live comments thread? Anyway, in case that’s you, here’s the link:https://youtu.be/kR12Ttuxobs
Old chestnuts never die, they just return in the Eternal Cycle of Re-roasting....
He said and demonstrated something i already guessed with my own cables experiment....Without measurement tough... There is difference but very minute one...
The room controls is a way more huge upgrade and like me he said that at the end...
One thing he does not experimented with, like me, is with minerals modifying the response of the cables...
I use my "golden plate" with herkimer diamond to a better balancing of the cable between dark and bright... With success....I even verify with many other minerals with each time a different response in audible effect... I can even describe the effect i related myself to 5 or 6 different minerals...At the end i setlle for my golden plate and quartz or herkimer diamond...
Those too much sensible to unorthodox experiment of this kind may call that a "reinforced placebo effect" presenting itself each time with a different audible effect if i change the minerals.... I dont give a damn.... 😁😁😁😊😊😊😎
But after my experiments i decided to never upgrade my actual cables only to balance them my way....It is very economical and very satisfying...
Wow, for a boring topic that’s been beat to death and certainly does not deserve a single word more or a second of anyone’s time -- there are a lot of responses here. Did anyone post a comment at Audioholics? What kind of response did you get? (Because that was THE point of this OP. Not whether speaker cables made a difference. I didn't raise that question.)
Having both my wife and I brought to tears multiple times over the last two nights by music that we've played many times before on a system that had never elicited that response from us prior to changing only the speakers cables, for me, and for her, the answer is obviously yes, speakers cables make a difference...however, the magnitude varies.
I’ve owned mid priced Nordost, and I currently own Straightwire Virtuoso. I’ve never heard a difference between cables. I’ve only purchased the cable to cover all the bases.
First of all, I love what Millercarbon said about him earlier, lol. Second of all, why are folks taking advice from a guy who can’t keep his room clean, lol. What a mess. Let’s get to the point here, speaker cables do make a difference. Some are minor and some are huge. It is based on the system it is connecting from. Now, about the Home Theater folks. I once blew so much money on Home Theater with separate amplifiers and all and found out that it was all a waste of money. You want to know how good you’re Theater Sound is, play some music on it and then go to anyone 2 channel rig and play the same soundtrack on their system. You will think at that point something is wrong with your system. I’ve traveled all over the world and believe me, I’ve heard what some call the very best. I know laugh at the notion. So when it comes to speaker cables with lengths of up to 200’, and theater distortion, lol, how can they tell the difference. This is their argument, smh. What a waste of air and time. 2 channel guys, you can lead the horse to the well but you can’t make them drink.
Only slight nuance, But a nuance is a nuance = a plus, Now some IC's sound crappy = minus nuance. The Best IC's are navships ebay, see all my YT vids fora sound test,
As long as there are people who get sucked into spending ridiculous money on speaker cables this topic will survive and it is only one such topic in audiophilia.
As long that there will be "skeptic fad" shutting down their own ears in the name of their conception of "science", conflating the virtual snake oil price of cable in some case with their real different qualities; there will be thread were customers discussing their bad or good experiences will receive the useless " lessons" of these pseudo "sunday scientist" who will claim that cables made no differences at all ,which is false, instead of saying the truth: cables are way more too costly in many cases for the differences they made...
But all brains are not able to treat 2 flows of information flowing in opposite direction for sure....
It is "always the same topic in audiophilia" some are too enlightened from their interpretation of "science" to even experiment anything by themselves, anyway ears are very overestimated in music perception they say....They blind test themselves to know if their electronic equalizer is working....
As long as there are people who get sucked into spending ridiculous money on speaker cables this topic will survive and it is only one such topic in audiophilia. Manufacturers appeal to lay instinct and generate myths by the dozens. Everyone would be best served by spending this money on better speakers, subwoofers and amplifiers.
If you really want to get down with speaker wire read Waldo Nell's, "The Real Science Behind Speaker Wires." This Audioholics video is dumbed down quite a bit. It is however applicable to both two channel and theater people. I also agree with him on Kimber Kable. If you want the best speaker wire at a very reasonable price get together with some other philes and buy a 50 foot roll then split it up. You will have to terminate it yourself but that is not at all hard to do.
Being perfectly happy with basic cables like @sheridanmartinj is ... perfectly fine. It’s up to the hobbyists to decide how far they want to go with the hobby, and how many things (like cables, or other stuff) to try to optimize their system. It’s a hobby after all. It’s perfectly fine to try nothing. What it’s not fine IMO is going out and about in public proclaiming nothing makes a difference, and telling people what to buy and not buy, solely based on this very LACK of hands on experience. That is what many people do, and it baffles me
The story about ARC and their cables used at the factory is a good example of what I have been saying for years, that even industry members/entities are ignorant (or, have a vastly different set of priorities than the audiophile) of the importance of cables. Obviously it is to their advantage that the consumer buys their components versus cables. Frankly, most of the systems I have seen at manufacturers' factories are pathetic. As an audiophile, I would be embarrassed to show setups like that. Often the cables are sad, nowhere near optimized. Sadly, with a poor methodology such as the typical mixing of cables, without a clue what a baseline sound might me, the performance of the component will not be optimized - regardless how wonderful the owner thinks it is. :(
IOW, shridanmartinj, you still have plenty of upside to your system's performance if you have never worked seriously with cables. As you mentioned Blue Jeans cables and have some nice kit in terms of the Pass components, I direct your attention to my latest review of the Iconoclast cables at Dagogo.com. Do not doubt for a moment that you can have far better sound than currently simply by switching out your cable set. It is a travesty for an audiophile with the means to settle on budget cables and squander the truly wondrous performance of the equipment. In this particular case, there is a consistency involved, as Iconoclast cables are sold through Blue Jeans and they are kindred designs. You have the ideal situation to prove to yourself that I am correct, and realize a truly stunning result. You are not there, you do not have a fully optimized system, if that is important to you.
I see that you have Maggie 3.6, I believe. Trust me, these need all the help they can get with resolution. Simply because it is a panel speaker in no way means you have the best from them with less expensive cables and better components. I have owned, reviewed and use various panel speakers, and tell you that you have much more finesse to get out of those speakers than you are currently experiencing. I make changes to panel speakers regularly to improve their sound via cable sets.
The misnomer continues to be circulated that components make a bigger difference in a system than cables. Of course that is true IF one considers only a particular cable, such as set of ICs, but it is not true when considering the set of cables. Since most audiophiles do not work with sets, they have no clue about this. They speculate, gesticulate, agitate, etc. but they are uninformed. It's best not to listen to anyone who has not worked with comparison of sets of cables, be they manufacturer or fan. My guess is you will be wowed by ARC and think I am wrong. So be it; you pick your authority, you get your results.
BTW, I advise the avoidance of cables with circuits in the signal path. I have yet to find one that did not mangle the signal as much as it was advertised to aid it.
I was told by Audio Research about 3-4 yrs ago don`t spend money on exotic cables by a better piece of equipment then you`ll hear a difference in your system which make since. We here at the ARC factory he stated use a set of modest $500.00 speaker cables, he wasn`t an sales person trying to sell me anything I was calling to solve an issue and cables just worked its way into the conversation I ended up with a set of $375.00. Blue jean speaker cables and I am absolutely satisfied. I recently departed with my ARC LS22 preamp and purchased a better piece of equipment; the Blue jean cables are still in the system working the hell out of my 3.6 maggies the new to me Pass Lab XP30 Peamp and the XP350 Pass power amp. and they arn`t missing a beat HALLELUJAH !!!
@Millercarbon Just asking what cables transformed your system? I do hear difference but I have never found a cable to transform my system although I would pretty much be open to hear that!
I went from Synergistic Research Resolution Reference to Element Copper Tungsten Silver. These were so much better it had me shaking my head in disbelief. Bear in mind the cables that I had before were already quite good!
Then I had Michael Spallone modify the Active Shielding modules to eliminate the cheesy circuit board with point to point wiring and higher quality caps and diodes. Another big step up. But going to CTS was huge. Granted these were $7500 speaker cables. But that was back in the day, 2000 or so, when they were new. By the time I got them they were only about $1200. Not a lot of money for such a huge improvement.
This was so huge I started to wonder what about my interconnect? Synergistic has a Passport trade in program and I had a lot of old cables sitting around over the years, never felt like worth the trouble to sell, thought who knows might find some use for them- and I did. Traded in they got me most of the way to Atmosphere Level III Euphoria which was another huge step up.
The improvements from these cables was every bit as great as going from a ARC PH3SE phono stage to Herron, and almost as great as going from Talon Khorus to Moab. None of these are cheap. But then on the other hand compare the degree of improvement, it is every bit as great for the wires as for the components.
Wire is huge. So are components. You just have to find the right ones.
@Millercarbon Just asking what cables transformed your system? I do hear difference but I have never found a cable to transform my system although I would pretty much be open to hear that!
IMO cables can be used to fine tune a system but my question is - if someone took you favorite cable out and put in a different cable of similar quality would you actually know that?
For example - had a few people over a few weeks back - a few people wanted to hear the different digital cables they brought over - everyone came to the opinion on the rankings of the three cables. After we listened to the system for a few hours I had to laugh as my system has Vandersteen HP-M5 filters (custom made by me) and I use an interconnect from those filters to the amps. Those interconnects are the old pairs of ICs you got with the old 1970's tape decks - you know the ones, mine are Sony molded plastic ends. So while we heard slight differences with the digital cables, the music was flowing through $1.99 cables.
Cables make a difference. Error on side of affordable and what sounds good for your needs. Canare Star Quad 4S11 14 AWG twisted and paired to 12 AWG works on my Dynaudios. Cheers. (canare.com)
Both Gene & Amir arrive at the same conclusion every time they measure something. Thus, there is no need to watch their videos because we already know the answer.
My experience is most good quality O2 free cables pretty much sound the same. Popular high end brand lower priced lines take things away by varying impedance or whatever they do. Lower line sounds very detailed but has not very good bass. Medium line does everything pretty good. When you get up and buy the couple thousand dollar brand ... wow!!! They are a very good O2 free Copper cable with no glaring weaknesses. Just like the ones from Mogami or whoever that makes them for a tenth of the cost. Paying thousands of dollars for cables and sometimes tens of thousands is ridiculous in my mind. If money were no object to me I still wouldn’t do it. This is one area where I believe measurements do matter.
"Speaker cables don’t make a difference?" Ever single speaker cable I have ever heard made a difference. It's the Speakers without cables that don't make a difference. OMG I kill myself, now back to my drinking.
@sgreg1 Great answer on the economics basically preventing any conclusion for home theater except the one he gives. I wonder how much of my brain attends to the sound during movies -- I listen differently and of course my attention is largely focused on plot, scene, visuals, etc. To the degree I focus closely on the sound, it's much more intermittent. That's another possible argument against putting $$ into home theater wire.
People selling costly wires make a lot of money doing so. $1000 power cords......have you lost your mind?? Cryogenic frozen? So what???
I read somewhere that electrons flow on the skin of the wire, therefore stranded cables should perform better than solid wires. I use Canare 30mhz video coax for my audio cables, no bandwidth problems there...LOL
The YouTuber does not want to admit that his system could sound a lot better with upgraded speaker wire as he does not want to put that cost burden on the system. This is the dilemma we go through every day in this hobby.
Yes and once I figured out what was going on that was pretty much the end of multi-channel for me. Unfortunately not until after wasting a good two years of my life trying to have the proverbial dual-use system. Did eventually figure out how to do it. Unfortunately while everyone likes to pretend they think and reason and figure stuff out the truth more often than not is they just copy the other guy. So all these guys like this one pretending cables don't matter only wind up deceiving a lot of regular guys who really would like good sound but just aren't up to blazing their own trail.
Many of us have heard a difference. Too many pretend they do. Some do not. Some refuse to. Some can't. Some don't give a rat's patooey. Where is spell check when you really need it?
I watched it before I saw this thread. I've seen a few of these types of videos and his probably has the best evidence using the best equipment for showing why speaker cables don't matter. Although Amir from AudioScienceReview ran various inexpensive 12-gauge cables through a resistance test, which showed vast differences. Some were excellent, like Belden's, Parts Express and regular electrical wire, and some were total crap. Still, whether you could actually hear a difference in the total crap ones is debatable, but at similar prices I'd rather take that out of the equation.
When doing a speaker cable review for HT he can never admit that there is a difference. It is a simple math formula on cost. We all know that in a two channel set up the proper technique is long component cables shortest speaker wire possible. Now try to apply this to a 9-1 Home theater set up. Long speaker runs are unavoidable unless you amp each channel separate and place an amp in ceiling next to speaker. If you did your component cables are going to grow fast too. Not going to happen. Now the math. If I am going to dump $1000 for each speaker run my 2 channel is $2000. Now my 9-1 channels is $9000 then $10,000 when you add sub. Not to many people can increase there budget by 80% for only speaker wire and spend more than the cost of their amp. The YouTuber does not want to admit that his system could sound a lot better with upgraded speaker wire as he does not want to put that cost burden on the system. This is the dilemma we go through every day in this hobby. Yes it will sound better but at what cost and if I double the cost will it sound 100% better? Welcome to our world and enjoy the ride and the music.
You guys call them cults, I call them tribes. 21st tribalism is incredibly concerning to me and I think it is the direct result of far too much bad data and the demeaning way in which we address those with whom we disagree.
Did I get the video right? The Kimber cable capacitance is 5 times the other cables but he says, that's not so important but the Kimber measures the best, then says to be sure to use Kimber 8TC like I do? I guess my take-away is he likes Kimber 8TC, uses it in his system, recommends it...but all cable sounds the same? Am I confused?
I can't get over how cluttered and sonically distracting his studio is. I mean, no matter what cables he's running through those floordstanders, it won't make a difference to me with all that shyte lying around. No to mention the glass wall. Dude- get a sense of space and curate your room!
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