Quandary

@erik_squires 

There are amps I can recommend unconditionally for all listeners with all systems, and Pass is not one of them.

What amps would those be?

@cdc Luxman, D’Agostino, Vandersteen (yes, they make amps), Parasound, Sanders.

When I say I can recomend them that doesn’t mean they handle all loads, but rather they are at least neutral and tonally will not cause themselves to be noticed. Amps I can’t recommend are those that to my ears are objectionable, or that have a particular type of speaker they sound good with.

Ayre is a brand I really like... but also distinct enough I can't universally recommend.

Audiogon is a destroyer of legal commerce. I knew it.

$300 problem, come on, my monthly electrical bill is higher than that, and it's not even a house.

$300 problem, come on, my monthly electrical bill is higher than that, and it's not even a house.

Hey everyone! inna says that $300 is not a lot of money to waste so we should all just agree with him and delete this thread. How could we be so misguided?

I don’t necessarily agree with all the negativism here. The key, which nobody has mentioned, is his pricing. Does he sell at MSRP? if so, then he should have plenty of margin to do the demo for free.

But if he sells at a discount to MSRP, then the $300 fee plus his price is still probably less than you would pay at a dealer that sells at full MSRP and offers free auditions. So do the math. Those here that have a dealer that gives free auditions are most likely paying top dollar for their purchases.

Frankly, the second option is a much more customer friendly price system.

Jerry

PS.   I would be reluctant to do the demo with a different amp. While you will be listening to less than a watt, I don't know if you can be sure that the first watt sounds the same in the 2 amps.

negativism ?

You mean people raising plausible criticism of the offer? I see you don't agree with that, and give a rationale, but it's not negativism. 

Yeah, we waist much more. That electrical bill should be at least half of that, but there is no competition or effective government regulation. Many people just collect money not earn it. This dealer may not be the best there is but he does offer something potentially valuable and rewarding.

The main reason for my decision was not just the $300 fee (which I agree might  probably be worth it considering the heft of the amps,) but also the fact that it’s a different amp that I’d be trying out PLUS the fact that I really LIKE the sound of my system as is.  The synergy between components is amazing and hard to come by.

I think you made the right choice. Just as you stated: it’s one thing to charge for a demo (and we can argue over the amount), but it’s another to charge and not give you what you want. That’s weird to me. You cannot have a successful demo (of any thing) if the requirements are not met. 

@rvpiano Sounds like a prudent decision. Upgrades are often a slippery slope, consuming a lot of time and money until you get your system where you want it.

At some point we just need to enjoy our system as it is. At least one seasoned poster here waits around 5 years after an upgrade before entertaining the next one.

Enjoy!

@inna  my electric bill is close to zero. Are you running a factory?

I wish I were, grislybutter, just living somewhere in New England. Heating is electric as well. Everything is quite expensive here, anyway. So, audiophile equipment is relatively cheap. This is a weak consolation, I know.

@inna I understand. I am lucky to have solar and little heating and AC costs but when I lived in Boston, it was waaaay higher 😂

With heating too it is not so bad though for you

Considering that the apartment is quite big, no not too bad, and since I only spend about $1500 a year on audiophile stuff, I can manage for now. It's actually $375 average monthly electric bill.

$1500 is a great (annual) budget @inna . It can take you great heights :) I have learned so much here and benefitted from loaners and gifts from audiogon members, it improved my SQ experience 10-fold.

Yes, if you buy used and take your audiophile time it is not very little. Just bought VAC Avatar SE tube integrated in September and set of NOS tubes for it, so for the next three years I am definitely done. Unless something breaks and can’t be repaired. I will need one more quad of output tubes for this time period, though. $500.

I would not really consider your speakers to be "very efficient", quick search puts them at, 90dB 1W/1M @ 4Ω (2.83V/1M) that's rather average efficiency. you may find the 30wpc not enough. The 60wpc amp he's offering for demo will be a better match IMO 

I presume the dealer is East End HiFi. I’ve purchased speakers from that dealer and I have found the owner Chris a real standup guy. Why not get off the Merry-Go-Round that you’ve been on for all these years and try out a Tube amp!!

@yogiboy 

No, not that place

rvpiano

I'd also see if you have a CODA dealer near you (I know that there are not a lot), that would lend you a CODA S5.5.....Doug Dale (owner and designer) is also of the Threshold background as it Nelson Pass. 50 WPC all class A, 100 amps peak current.....best SS amp I've personally ever heard, and certainly owned

If you can get one on loan, I think it'd be well worth the time to audition one. They are really hot right now (I have had mine for about 2 months), since they released the latest version late last year. Reviews are magnificent, and fully in line with my own experience

@rvpiano

It’s your money, may be worth it to you. While $300 might seem excessive, relative to the cost of swapping components in and out to elevate your system (ie shipping costs) this amount seems small. Also, dealer support might be a good thing.

From the dealer’s point of view, I can understand their hesitant to loan out expensive gear for trial - the effort, time, risk of customer abusement, and cost to transport and maybe set up for free to any customer asking may not be worth it to them. They’d rather have a more serious/committed customer with a reasonable chance of a sale in which they would be compensated for their efforts, and not merely satisfying a potential customer’s curiosity.

Maybe the dealer is willing to give you $300 credit for anything else he sells if you don't like the amp. I'm a big fan of win-win.  

Pass amps are special. I own pass x150 and over the years have heard many other brands amps.

I have not heard your benchmark amp but if you need (have the itch) for neutral transparent musical sound the Pass will deliver.

A little surprised at how much your dealer wants for the audition though, I must say.

OP….. you need help…. buy Pass Labs gear…. From some other dealer who won’t charge you $300 for the “advice”

I know I posted on this thread but cannot find my post and I do not recall deleting it at all. Anyway, as this thread continues, it is apparent the great differences of opinion. Two expensive and heavy 100 lb amplifiers delivered, set up, evaluation time given, and then the reverse. Come pick them up and reconnect the 13 pounder. The store owner is paying someone to do this, or he is doing this himself. Either way, it is a cost to the store owner, in money and time. It is also presenting the possibility of something happening to the mono blocks, as a scratch/dent can occur. This is no different than buying an amplifier with a 10-15 % restocking fee’. It is truly an individual decision, as there is no right or wrong. In my original post, I did indicate it was not fair with the mono blocks being sent, pretending they would mirror the single chassis amp. Not happening, although you must consider rvpiano's speakers have powered low frequency drivers, so any amp will not work as hard as driving full range. I went to people’s homes for years, as my expertise was invited to discuss improvements and upgrades. I did collect a consultation fee, which was discussed in advance. As I was not a dealer (but did business with dealers), my time was valuable. This was and still is, the way it is (not specifically me, as I am retired). As a consumer you either participate or you don’t. I rotate power amplifiers like people rotate socks, so they are an important ingredient to the presentation I am looking for. Just my 2cents. Enjoy ! MrD.

The hardest thing is knowing when to say you are done, your system sounds great, etc.  This is a site that caters to people who always want to experiment and tinker and check out the grass on the other side of the fence.  There is nothing wrong with that, and it’s great that they (we) have a site or two to mix in.  It isn’t however the place to ask “I love my system, it’s perfect, but what should I change?” and expect to get many people telling you to stay put

@mrdecibel

Ditto!

QUANDARY REVISITED

I reversed course and bit for the $300 demonstration.  I have the whole weekend to listen and decide.  If it doesn’t make my system sound significantly better I will happily return the demo amps without feeling any obligation.  Since I can afford the $300 it is not a hardship for me to satisfy my curiosity.  As some have pointed out, to lug 90 lb. amps over, set them up and lug them back is certainly worth something.  And if I buy, the money will go towards the purchase price.  
The only caveat is that I won’t be hearing the exact same thing that I’m buying.  But I’m reassured that the sound will be very close, and to me it’s worth the gamble.  
 They are coming to install momentarily. I’ll report back as to the results.

 

Well, the Pass is definitely an improvement over the Benchmark.  I just have to decide if it’s enough of an improvement to justify the expense.

I think that the $300 review, which involves two trips by the dealer, plus the opportunity to have the $300 put toward the purchase price is a reasonable offer.  Whatever you decide, it is a decision informed by much more than most people base their decision on--you got to hear the amp in your own system, at your leisure.  

@rvpiano I am not sure how many power amplifiers you have owned, but the difference in presentation between the Benchmark and the Pass are quite different from each other, and would be, with any speaker. My advice to you, is to take your time, breathe easy, and play many pieces of music you recently enjoyed with you Benchmark, and allow the Pass to do their things. "Relax" during this weekend and ENJOY ! You will know which is more "engaging", as this is a term I talk about a lot. Do not think too much about it, and simply, listen. I will continue following this thread, so anything you want to discuss or comment on with all of us here, we have your back. Remember, you are trying to satisfy you...not me, not anyone else....just you. My best, MrD.

The only caveat is that I won’t be hearing the exact same thing that I’m buying. 

yes, that's a big caveat

Right now the Pass seems a little “overwhelming” and not quite as detailed as the Benchmark on some things. I have to keep the volume knob way down. However it certainly fills in a lot of gaps in volume that the Benchmark lacks.
I suppose that was to be expected.  

OK, the $300 is invested.

If you would decide to go ahead with purchasing the Pass amp maybe (if you haven't already) it's a good time to discuss in the unlikely event that you feel the single chassis Pass is not a significant enough improvement to warrant the expense, the method that this would be handled.

  LP

If you have to turn the volume way down then it is a gain mismatch with the preamp that you are using!

The Benchmark amp has three levels of gain via a switch on the rear panel. The highest gain of the Benchmark is 22db. The standard gain on the Pass is 26 db. Quite a difference when dealing with the same source/preamp; more than 3db of a difference. This should not be an issue with the CJ PV11. For the same in room volume level, you will be lowering the volume control on the preamp...no surprise here. The PV11 is phase inverting, meaning somewhere in the system you need to invert phase. Unless there is a phase reversal switch somewhere, this is usually accomplished with the speaker cables at either the amp end or the speaker end. At one end only, the positive wire gets connected to the negative connection of the amp/speaker, for each channel. Not meaning to confuse you rv, just some insight. My best, MrD.

Try not to analyze your listening much. Chill during these hours of listening. Enjoy!

Mr.D

I’m aware of the phase inversion on the CJ and have the correct configuration of the leads. Thank you for your suggestions. I’m trying to just listen and enjoy. The problem I’m facing right now is, because the CJ has no remote control I have to get up and down to change the volume for each recording. What’s worse is that the tiniest turn of the volume dial creates a difference in volume. Very disconcerting.

@rvpiano , because of the additional gain of the Pass amps, the setting on your CJ volume control is lower and that incremental adjustments are harder to pinpoint. I am not sure what to make out of "I have to get up and down to change the volume for each recording". This should have been the case with the Benchmark (I too make regular volume adjustments from 1 recording to the next). However, what I believe you might be experiencing with the Pass, is a "greater sense of dynamic range" as they have extraordinarily large, beefy and well designed power supplies. Try and relax with the volume setting as this should not be disconcerting.

The problem is the slightest turn of the volume control brings a big difference in the sound. With the Benchmark, I didn’t need to change the control that often because one setting was fine for many recordings. Maybe the less powerful 30 watt amp would allow for greater range of control.

The gain on the 30.8 is the same as the monos so it would likely be the same with the volume control setting on your preamp. You are likely using the volume control closer to the 12-2 o’clock position with the Benchmark. Most amplifiers have gain of 26db or even more (was at one time the industry norm), so this volume situation will still occur. Volume attenuators (the kind used in the PV11, with wipers) are actually better when they are used at around the 12 o’clock position or higher (the higher you go the less resistance within the wipers). Your PV11 has 20db of gain, which is greater than most, ime. You can always have CJ, or a good tech, lower the gain, or even replace the attenuator with something like a Khozmo unit, but this is jumping ahead. Not sure what else I can say, but if this is a problem and is disconcerting, you might have your answer earlier than after the full weekend. Pass is not at fault here, but the gain issue seems to be, as suggested by yogiboy above. My best, MrD.

@mrdecibel Gave a great explanation of what I stated. The PV11 has way too much gain for that Pass amp. If you look at Pass preamps the gain is half (9db) of the PV11. The range of the volume control is useless if it is on the lower end of the dial!

PV11 SPECIFICATIONS Gain: High level 18 dB Output: Maximum 20V Phase: Line stage inverts phase of all inputs. Hum and noise (20Hz-20KHz): Line level:92 dB below 2.5V output Distortion: THD less than.25% IMD less than.25% Output impedance: less than 500 ohms Dimensions: 19"W x 3.5"H x 12.5"D

The sound at times is really quite good. The problem is it gets too loud too soon and there is a blurring of the sound, like it overwhelms the system.I’m going to experiment and listen this weekend with a positive attitude, but I’m afraid I might have to have to pass on buying the Pass.

Interestingly, pop and rock, due to the limited dynamic range, sound wonderful..

@mrdecibel 

Can you recommend a quality amp that will match well with my CJ?    
The Benchmark matches perfectly.   
 Maybe I should just leave well enough alone.

An observation: With the Benchmark I listened for fine detail. The Pass is more homogenized, but in a very nice way.  I’m beginning to get used the Pass sound and liking it more than previously.

I would rotate the Benchmark AHB2, and my CODA #16 for my 2-channel speakers and every time would say that what I was using was currently using was the best combo. I decided that the power and sweetness of the CODA is what I wanted over the super clarity of the AHB2. I also needed to raise cash, so I sold the AHB2. I wish I still had an AHB2 for my headphones which I used with a very warm Schitt Mjolnir v3 preamp.

My 2-channel preamps were very neutral so it can get tricky pairing the AHB2 with them.

@rvpiano good afternoon. Keep in mind, Benchmark and Pass, imo, ime are catering to different audiences of listeners. Benchmark = clean, uncolored, bare to the bones neutral. Pass = smooth, lush, velvety, romantic and dynamic. Tube amps = smooth, lush, velvety, romantic. Are you seeing a similarity here. What this weekend has done for you, whether you purchase a Pass or not, is the exposure of an amplifier's character. The Benchmark has zero character, ime, as it was designed to not have one. This is not to say it is not a wonderful amplifier and has proven itself over and over again. Many love it, some do not. However, most amplifiers have a "flavor", and these flavors are appealing to many. Nelson is the flavor king when it comes to solid state. Many love it, some do not. $300 is worth this experience alone, providing you can afford it. Let's face it, this is what audiophiles do; go from one piece of gear to another, looking/listening to satisfy their individual tastes (I have so much to say about this, and have ad nauseum). You might prefer the Benchmark, which is fine. You are getting some of this flavor with your PV11. A big word as of late used throughout our community (although this has existed for decades), is "synergy", which is combining a little of this and a little of that (sometimes a lot of this and a lot of that), to get to that final place within our rooms. So, just experience the Pass amps while they are there. Relax and enjoy and try not to be anxious or critical. We are standing by. My best, MrD.

@mrdecibel

Yes, you’re right I’m very used to that “uncolored” sound.  Hard to adjust.

Thanks for the response, and being there.

@rvpiano Always, to a Long Islander😄, lol.