I went about halfway down into the comments, which go all over the place, and just jumped right to this. I’m glad to see you canceled the demo because though Pass amps are generally fantastic and I’m fairly sure you’ll like it over the Benchmark- you can demo any amp you want anytime you want and still get something that sounds terrific with your speakers. Do it in your time and in a deal that makes sense. I’m a guy who has no problem paying a restocking fee for an audition. You can pay restocking fees all over the internet and they won’t be $300.
And like everyone else, I’d never do business with a schmuck who makes such an ill intentioned offer- $300 to bring you a piece of equipment he wants to sell. That’s hillbilly sht. I’m from Brooklyn- I worked for the best goniffs in the business, most of them had a lot more class than that.
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Tube gear, in particular power amplifiers, vary much more in their sound than do solid state amps. It is not easy to characterize tube amp sound and know tube amp ‘sound” from just a few examples—Audio Research sounds radically different from Audio Note. Also tube amps require much more care in matching requirements of the speakers. In that sense, good solid state is “safer” in terms of avoiding incompatibility. I find Pass Labs to be decent solid state stuff; although much more particular in terms of speaker matching, Pass Labs’ other brand-First Watt—is even better sounding to me.
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BTW, ditto from larryi's point of view.
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It is important to note, the preferences we all have (at least those that know what their preferences are) why tubes or solid state is the right direction to take (speaking about power amplifiers only). Tube power amps do not do it for me. Them the facts. Anyone familiar with and have a preference for tubes amps, and very specific tube amps as larryi above, definitely does not listen to music the way I do, nor have the same expectations, wants and desires as I do. I am sure we listen to different music as well. Right or wrong? There is none. Not with the varied tastes we all have when listening. For larryi, he has found his comfort place/happy place, and I am extremely happy for him, and the many listeners he interacts with. I have found my comfort place and my happy place, and this is all that matters. I have stated over and over and over again, ad nauseum, that each of us are individuals, and we like what we like. Musicianship, composition and artistic expression are what I listen to, first and foremost. Yes, these are sounds. Our recordings have many sounds, so enjoy those sounds in your preferred order, through your preferred system. Enjoy! MrD.
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Interesting note: The Pass solid state sounded better than either of the tube amps I tried.
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@mrdecibel
Youre so right about mood being a factor. In fact, I started that discussion on mood you referenced.
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In my system, at least, the CJ and Rogue tube amps didn’t work out well.
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Yes, tube linestages can work well and sound good with solid state amps. But, the biggest difference in sound comes from using a good tube amp. I hang out at a very serious audio shop that does not sell ANY solid state amplification. They also don’t sell high powered tube amps. So many visitors to the shop are utterly amazed at the sound; for some, it is like a religious experience. They have never heard this kind of sound at shops pushing solid state and high power tube amps.
It is all about the sound. As good as a hybrid tube/solid state sounds, I don’t think one gets close to the full measure of tube sound without a tube amp. I’ve used solid state linestages with tube amps, and I prefer that combination to tube linestage feeding solid state.
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With the Benchmark I can set the volume control knob anywhere between 11:00 and 2:00, a much wider range than any of the other amps. The CJ tube preamp has been refitted with Teflon caps and is an ideal match for the Benchmark.
The combination of solid state and tubes works. The amount of detail, warmth and soundstaging is impressive.
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Someday, if possible, try to audition the Benchmark preamp with your system. Not counting the difference in sound, which is still the most important, but only you can tell, the volume adjustment of 1/2 db on the remote will allow you a lot of precision.
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Sounds like you got a lot of experience for your experiment. The conclusion that comes to my mind is that a major factor in your enjoyment is detail… that is what Benchmark is about… hence a really good choice for you. The Pass and especially CJ are about carefully walking the line to balance detail, midrange bloom to capture the perspective of music in its venue . Anyway, hopefully you are happy with the experiment. It would have been worth it for me.
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@rvpiano amplifier is one of the most impactful components in the system and introducing a different amp is a major change. Your system is tuned to the sound you like with the benchmark in your system. That includes all of your cabling. New amp is rarely a plug and play type of component.
You have to be able to hear the potential and commit to making additional changes if you change your amp, including cables and even a preamp. Ultimately it boils down to personal preference. If you don’t miss pass amp when it’s gone, then it’s not for you.
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@rvpiano , at least you now know. Keep in mind, music and music listening should be an enjoyable and entertaining endeavor. What this means and what I have found by experience with myself as well as others, my mood matters when I listen, before I listen. This is another topic that can be and has been discussed on another thread, in fact. My best Always, MrD.
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@mrdecibel
Well, as I’m sure you predicted, the Benchmark blew away not only the Rogue but a CJ amp he brought over. It blossomed like a beautiful flower. The other two amps sounded dead in comparison. It wasn’t even close!
As I’ve said, the synergy of my components is outstanding.
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Unfortunately, he’s not going to leave the Rogue with me. Hopefully I can tell something about it’s character, including the impedance issue, before he brings it back.
The synergy between the Benchmark and the other components in my system is quite good.
Unless the Rogue exceeds Benchmark’s quality, it will be a quick NO.
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@rvpiano The input impedance on the Rogue power amps are very high at 200K ohms (the ones I am familiar with), and your PV 11 output impedance is 500 ohms. This could be an issue. Plus, you will likely have the same problem with the PV11 volume control position. But, if he is not charging you extra for this loaner of a Rogue, you get to experience tubes as well. Sorry the Pass did not work out. I have a prediction where all this will be going, but we shall see. Always my best, MrD.
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BTW, volume attenuation has become a large topic in our industry (it has always been) and it is a very known fact of how it’s design and execution can make or break a system, which could honestly be your PV 11s weakness, with the Pass in the system. Have a great tech replace the stock attenuator with a remote controlled attenuator by KHOZMO (impedance matched of course), as I believe there might be room inside the chassis. Generally, a small receiving sensor can be located outside of the chassis, as opposed to drilling a hole into the faceplate. Or you can always upgrade to a more recent preamp, as I am sure many here will agree (some may not). This with whatever power amp(s) you decide on. Not to put a knife into your weekend, but you could be losing much detail with the CJ attenuator and its user position with the extra gain of the Pass. Sorry, this might not be helpful, but I needed to say it.
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@rvpiano , I happen to feel quite the opposite about Pass and classical music reproduction, as I find Pass excels with it. You might in fact be losing details based on the preamp volume control position, which could result in hearing less details. I never lived on Long Island, but many of my customers lived there. Some of my favorite salespeople were out there as well, and I enjoyed visiting/buying from the audio shops. I am going back a few decades. I have many stories to tell, and at 70, I would love to tell them all. Another time, as this thread is about you, and your journey. My best and standing by. MrD.
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I scheduled the return of the Pass.
When he picks up the Pass, the guy is going to let me hear a Rogue tube amp while he’s here. It should be interesting.
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@mrdecibel
I think the Pass was not really designed for the complexity of classical music. It sounds fabulous on all other styles.
btw, Do you live on Long Island?
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@rvpiano Always, to a Long Islander😄, lol.
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@mrdecibel
Yes, you’re right I’m very used to that “uncolored” sound. Hard to adjust.
Thanks for the response, and being there.
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@rvpiano good afternoon. Keep in mind, Benchmark and Pass, imo, ime are catering to different audiences of listeners. Benchmark = clean, uncolored, bare to the bones neutral. Pass = smooth, lush, velvety, romantic and dynamic. Tube amps = smooth, lush, velvety, romantic. Are you seeing a similarity here. What this weekend has done for you, whether you purchase a Pass or not, is the exposure of an amplifier's character. The Benchmark has zero character, ime, as it was designed to not have one. This is not to say it is not a wonderful amplifier and has proven itself over and over again. Many love it, some do not. However, most amplifiers have a "flavor", and these flavors are appealing to many. Nelson is the flavor king when it comes to solid state. Many love it, some do not. $300 is worth this experience alone, providing you can afford it. Let's face it, this is what audiophiles do; go from one piece of gear to another, looking/listening to satisfy their individual tastes (I have so much to say about this, and have ad nauseum). You might prefer the Benchmark, which is fine. You are getting some of this flavor with your PV11. A big word as of late used throughout our community (although this has existed for decades), is "synergy", which is combining a little of this and a little of that (sometimes a lot of this and a lot of that), to get to that final place within our rooms. So, just experience the Pass amps while they are there. Relax and enjoy and try not to be anxious or critical. We are standing by. My best, MrD.
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I would rotate the Benchmark AHB2, and my CODA #16 for my 2-channel speakers and every time would say that what I was using was currently using was the best combo. I decided that the power and sweetness of the CODA is what I wanted over the super clarity of the AHB2. I also needed to raise cash, so I sold the AHB2. I wish I still had an AHB2 for my headphones which I used with a very warm Schitt Mjolnir v3 preamp.
My 2-channel preamps were very neutral so it can get tricky pairing the AHB2 with them.
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An observation: With the Benchmark I listened for fine detail. The Pass is more homogenized, but in a very nice way. I’m beginning to get used the Pass sound and liking it more than previously.
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@mrdecibel
Can you recommend a quality amp that will match well with my CJ?
The Benchmark matches perfectly.
Maybe I should just leave well enough alone.
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The sound at times is really quite good. The problem is it gets too loud too soon and there is a blurring of the sound, like it overwhelms the system.I’m going to experiment and listen this weekend with a positive attitude, but I’m afraid I might have to have to pass on buying the Pass.
Interestingly, pop and rock, due to the limited dynamic range, sound wonderful..
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@mrdecibel Gave a great explanation of what I stated. The PV11 has way too much gain for that Pass amp. If you look at Pass preamps the gain is half (9db) of the PV11. The range of the volume control is useless if it is on the lower end of the dial!
PV11 SPECIFICATIONS Gain: High level 18 dB Output: Maximum 20V Phase: Line stage inverts phase of all inputs. Hum and noise (20Hz-20KHz): Line level:92 dB below 2.5V output Distortion: THD less than.25% IMD less than.25% Output impedance: less than 500 ohms Dimensions: 19"W x 3.5"H x 12.5"D
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The gain on the 30.8 is the same as the monos so it would likely be the same with the volume control setting on your preamp. You are likely using the volume control closer to the 12-2 o’clock position with the Benchmark. Most amplifiers have gain of 26db or even more (was at one time the industry norm), so this volume situation will still occur. Volume attenuators (the kind used in the PV11, with wipers) are actually better when they are used at around the 12 o’clock position or higher (the higher you go the less resistance within the wipers). Your PV11 has 20db of gain, which is greater than most, ime. You can always have CJ, or a good tech, lower the gain, or even replace the attenuator with something like a Khozmo unit, but this is jumping ahead. Not sure what else I can say, but if this is a problem and is disconcerting, you might have your answer earlier than after the full weekend. Pass is not at fault here, but the gain issue seems to be, as suggested by yogiboy above. My best, MrD.
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The problem is the slightest turn of the volume control brings a big difference in the sound. With the Benchmark, I didn’t need to change the control that often because one setting was fine for many recordings. Maybe the less powerful 30 watt amp would allow for greater range of control.
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@rvpiano , because of the additional gain of the Pass amps, the setting on your CJ volume control is lower and that incremental adjustments are harder to pinpoint. I am not sure what to make out of "I have to get up and down to change the volume for each recording". This should have been the case with the Benchmark (I too make regular volume adjustments from 1 recording to the next). However, what I believe you might be experiencing with the Pass, is a "greater sense of dynamic range" as they have extraordinarily large, beefy and well designed power supplies. Try and relax with the volume setting as this should not be disconcerting.
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Mr.D
I’m aware of the phase inversion on the CJ and have the correct configuration of the leads. Thank you for your suggestions. I’m trying to just listen and enjoy. The problem I’m facing right now is, because the CJ has no remote control I have to get up and down to change the volume for each recording. What’s worse is that the tiniest turn of the volume dial creates a difference in volume. Very disconcerting.
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Try not to analyze your listening much. Chill during these hours of listening. Enjoy!
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The Benchmark amp has three levels of gain via a switch on the rear panel. The highest gain of the Benchmark is 22db. The standard gain on the Pass is 26 db. Quite a difference when dealing with the same source/preamp; more than 3db of a difference. This should not be an issue with the CJ PV11. For the same in room volume level, you will be lowering the volume control on the preamp...no surprise here. The PV11 is phase inverting, meaning somewhere in the system you need to invert phase. Unless there is a phase reversal switch somewhere, this is usually accomplished with the speaker cables at either the amp end or the speaker end. At one end only, the positive wire gets connected to the negative connection of the amp/speaker, for each channel. Not meaning to confuse you rv, just some insight. My best, MrD.
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If you have to turn the volume way down then it is a gain mismatch with the preamp that you are using!
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OK, the $300 is invested.
If you would decide to go ahead with purchasing the Pass amp maybe (if you haven't already) it's a good time to discuss in the unlikely event that you feel the single chassis Pass is not a significant enough improvement to warrant the expense, the method that this would be handled.
LP
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Right now the Pass seems a little “overwhelming” and not quite as detailed as the Benchmark on some things. I have to keep the volume knob way down. However it certainly fills in a lot of gaps in volume that the Benchmark lacks.
I suppose that was to be expected.
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The only caveat is that I won’t be hearing the exact same thing that I’m buying.
yes, that's a big caveat
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@rvpiano I am not sure how many power amplifiers you have owned, but the difference in presentation between the Benchmark and the Pass are quite different from each other, and would be, with any speaker. My advice to you, is to take your time, breathe easy, and play many pieces of music you recently enjoyed with you Benchmark, and allow the Pass to do their things. "Relax" during this weekend and ENJOY ! You will know which is more "engaging", as this is a term I talk about a lot. Do not think too much about it, and simply, listen. I will continue following this thread, so anything you want to discuss or comment on with all of us here, we have your back. Remember, you are trying to satisfy you...not me, not anyone else....just you. My best, MrD.
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I think that the $300 review, which involves two trips by the dealer, plus the opportunity to have the $300 put toward the purchase price is a reasonable offer. Whatever you decide, it is a decision informed by much more than most people base their decision on--you got to hear the amp in your own system, at your leisure.
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Well, the Pass is definitely an improvement over the Benchmark. I just have to decide if it’s enough of an improvement to justify the expense.
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QUANDARY REVISITED
I reversed course and bit for the $300 demonstration. I have the whole weekend to listen and decide. If it doesn’t make my system sound significantly better I will happily return the demo amps without feeling any obligation. Since I can afford the $300 it is not a hardship for me to satisfy my curiosity. As some have pointed out, to lug 90 lb. amps over, set them up and lug them back is certainly worth something. And if I buy, the money will go towards the purchase price.
The only caveat is that I won’t be hearing the exact same thing that I’m buying. But I’m reassured that the sound will be very close, and to me it’s worth the gamble.
They are coming to install momentarily. I’ll report back as to the results.
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The hardest thing is knowing when to say you are done, your system sounds great, etc. This is a site that caters to people who always want to experiment and tinker and check out the grass on the other side of the fence. There is nothing wrong with that, and it’s great that they (we) have a site or two to mix in. It isn’t however the place to ask “I love my system, it’s perfect, but what should I change?” and expect to get many people telling you to stay put
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I know I posted on this thread but cannot find my post and I do not recall deleting it at all. Anyway, as this thread continues, it is apparent the great differences of opinion. Two expensive and heavy 100 lb amplifiers delivered, set up, evaluation time given, and then the reverse. Come pick them up and reconnect the 13 pounder. The store owner is paying someone to do this, or he is doing this himself. Either way, it is a cost to the store owner, in money and time. It is also presenting the possibility of something happening to the mono blocks, as a scratch/dent can occur. This is no different than buying an amplifier with a 10-15 % restocking fee’. It is truly an individual decision, as there is no right or wrong. In my original post, I did indicate it was not fair with the mono blocks being sent, pretending they would mirror the single chassis amp. Not happening, although you must consider rvpiano's speakers have powered low frequency drivers, so any amp will not work as hard as driving full range. I went to people’s homes for years, as my expertise was invited to discuss improvements and upgrades. I did collect a consultation fee, which was discussed in advance. As I was not a dealer (but did business with dealers), my time was valuable. This was and still is, the way it is (not specifically me, as I am retired). As a consumer you either participate or you don’t. I rotate power amplifiers like people rotate socks, so they are an important ingredient to the presentation I am looking for. Just my 2cents. Enjoy ! MrD.
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OP….. you need help…. buy Pass Labs gear…. From some other dealer who won’t charge you $300 for the “advice”
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Pass amps are special. I own pass x150 and over the years have heard many other brands amps.
I have not heard your benchmark amp but if you need (have the itch) for neutral transparent musical sound the Pass will deliver.
A little surprised at how much your dealer wants for the audition though, I must say.
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@rvpiano
It’s your money, may be worth it to you. While $300 might seem excessive, relative to the cost of swapping components in and out to elevate your system (ie shipping costs) this amount seems small. Also, dealer support might be a good thing.
From the dealer’s point of view, I can understand their hesitant to loan out expensive gear for trial - the effort, time, risk of customer abusement, and cost to transport and maybe set up for free to any customer asking may not be worth it to them. They’d rather have a more serious/committed customer with a reasonable chance of a sale in which they would be compensated for their efforts, and not merely satisfying a potential customer’s curiosity.
Maybe the dealer is willing to give you $300 credit for anything else he sells if you don't like the amp. I'm a big fan of win-win.
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rvpiano
I'd also see if you have a CODA dealer near you (I know that there are not a lot), that would lend you a CODA S5.5.....Doug Dale (owner and designer) is also of the Threshold background as it Nelson Pass. 50 WPC all class A, 100 amps peak current.....best SS amp I've personally ever heard, and certainly owned
If you can get one on loan, I think it'd be well worth the time to audition one. They are really hot right now (I have had mine for about 2 months), since they released the latest version late last year. Reviews are magnificent, and fully in line with my own experience
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