Purchase on Audiogon arrived not as described

OP,

I am really glad to hear you got your refund. Wow, what an experience.

Thanks for the update and I am happy you at least got the purchase refund back.  Reading this thread is enough to keep me from using paypal.

I got the refund the case is closed. I had to pay shipping back so I still lost money in the end. Huge headache of an ordeal due to the seller packing the speakers horribly, or sending me damaged speakers to began with and then not working with me and eventually not responding.

Escalate it to supervisors and above. That’s the only way you can get anything moving at this point. 

So much for the original 20 day estimate..

Just an update for everyone. The case is still not resolved over 2 months later. Paypal has been delaying every step of the way. They just projected more time to the case. The case is over 60 days old. The staff at paypal have a generic answer if I ask a question about the status.

Here is an overall tip OP.

Not all credit cards are the same. Don’t use some random card from some small sht bank or credit union for higher risk purchases. You typically need a card with benefits like explicit purchase protection, etc from the big 4s, i.e., pick your credit cards more surgically.

Bank of America, Chase, Citibank....the big dudes have more clout and can squeeze/wring certain types of shiiister necks on your behalf more easily.

I purchased an item for about $2500 using PayPal credit. The next day I cancelled, and the seller sent a refund. It took PayPal credit 3 weeks to finally remove the charge. I even opened up a dispute showing the merchant’s refund. PayPal blamed it on PayPal credit, and Credit blamed it on PayPal. Evidently these are 2 separate entities.

I found that most of the people at PayPal/Credit either hide behind being stupid (or actually are) or can speak very little English, it was extremely difficult to communicate.

Good Luck.

ozzy

Be patient.  Being the holiday season, EVERYTHING is slow.  

It's already passed pypls estimated completion date. They haven't advanced beyond reviewing seller info which was estimated to have been completed December 8th.. very slow.

I'm still waiting on paypal. I will give them 30 days before I escalate. Unfortunately I remembered a portion of the transaction was with a pypl balance so I might not be abke to get that back if I have to resort to a charge back. I'm confident pypl will side with me given the evidence I gave them. So far the speakers have remained in the package the seller sent them in. The package wasn't severely damaged when it arrived. It has some wear on it but it looks like it's a package that had been previously used (walmart box).

@ghasley No offense meant, just posting my experience. My best to you…

Likewise @mahgister 

I know you are a gentleman and i never want to suggest anything negative about you...

I apologize if it seems so... It was not my intention aiming at you at all ...

I wish you a warm Christmas with the best for your family...

🎄

I wasn’t trying to insult the OP, on the contrary, people with little to no buy/sell experience on Audiogon are most likely to make a mistake. If rookies are on both sides of a deal, the odds are pretty good something will go awry. If an honest person with some experience is on one side of the transaction, they will typically shepherd the other party through the transaction.

 

In this instance, the seller is a scumbag for not honoring the premise of delivering a product in the stated condition

@bslon 

@mahgister 

I wasn’t trying to insult the OP, on the contrary, people with little to no buy/sell experience on Audiogon are most likely to make a mistake. If rookies are on both sides of a deal, the odds are pretty good something will go awry. If an honest person with some experience is on one side of the transaction, they will typically shepherd the other party through the transaction.

In this instance, the seller is a scumbag for not honoring the premise of delivering a product in the stated condition.

We dont buy because there is a feedback but because we need what is proposed...

We put something for sale without having any feedback and we  will acept the buyer proposition of payment, even if the seller had no feedback, because we need to sell ...

Then accusing someone to be faulty because he bought from a seller he does know nothing about or because a seller sell to a person he does know nothing about, is meaningless ...

We can be cautious to the point of not buying or not selling. we must listen to our intuition , but thats all ...

We can be sorry for a person who suffer a damage ...Seller or buyer...But criticizing someone after an accident , even a faulty one, is of no help ...

A zero feedback buyer purchasing from a zero feedback seller… unfortunate.

I’ve sold 2 items and neither buyer posted feedback. I provided complete contact information and photos of me boxing the components in their factory boxes and being double boxed at the shipper. Requests to them for feedback were ignored.

 Of having feedback or not getting feedback doesn’t mean a  seller is a problem.

Did the seller say they had the original boxes? That would be sufficient if the original packing materials were used. If not, did they say how they intended to pack ship them? If they misrepresented, they are liable. If you didn't ask, shame on you. Good luck getting your money back. I like KEF speakers. Tremendous value. Not crazy about being made in China, but if they are already out there used, I guess it doesn't help the manufacturer. Mine were closeouts, so didn't impact new production.

It is most likely that the seller did sell a quality product with good intentions.  It is also likely that the seller was clueless of how to package the speakers to ride undamaged.  Terrible situation.  If my scenario is correct, the seller would be at fault and responsible. I hope that the seller is honest. For some people this would be a very hard financial hit, either way, the responsible party needs to step up. Good luck with this. 

This is an excellent thread. So, it reveals a possible reality of trying to save a few bucks… what is the aggregation of hours fighting if something goes wrong? 
 

Personally, I came up with a guideline for myself… “don’t buy something on line from third party that I can’t just write off as a stupid move without feeling bad or financial consequence. 
 

For any significant audio purchase, dealers / visa only. Something goes wrong, I want one phone call or email to have it fixed. Life is too short. So, Echo (Portland), or Upscale, or Pearl Audio (Portland) are folks I trust. They will make it right in one phone call. The $2 dropper bottles from China… they arrive broken… I toss them in the garbage and order from someone else. 
 

But that is me. My approach to life. Others have different approaches.

Audiogon won’t do anything either, I’ve had similar situations where they only side with what the PayPal dispute results are.

I went through an identical transaction as OP. I filed a PayPal claim and it took 3 months for PayPal to rule in my favor. I was required by PayPal to obtain a repair estimate from a third party service center. 
 

filing a claim with UPS was fruitless as the seller failed to pack the item in accordance with UPS’s guidelines. UPS only honors such damage claims if the item was insured and met its packing guidelines. 
 

Paypal customer service was frustrating to deal with as each time I talked to an agent about the status of my case I would get a different answer. 
 

OP should send copious pictures of the damaged speakers, get a repair estimate, and send the shipping services packing guidelines. Then wait and be patient. 

Give Paypal some more time to resolve your dispute, but don’t let more than 30 days pass before filling a claim with the CC company. Either way, I believe you will ultimately get your money back. I had to file a CC dispute against Home Depot last summer. The CC company immediately credited my account for the transaction sum and told me I wouldn’t be charged any interest while they were conducting their investigation. Ultimately they decided in my favor but it took a few months. 
 

Last resort would be taking the seller to small claims court but I highly doubt it will get to that point. 
 

Sorry that happened to you, I’ve been there, once it was a seller who actually had 100% positive feedback on the “other” Audio site. The guy sent me the completely wrong preamp and despite that, i still lost about $40 in return shipping cost. Unfortunately, this is the risk we take these days in order to avoid paying retail prices and taking a bath if we subsequently decide to sell the item. And it has gotten much worse post-Covid, with all the noobs to the hobby. 

I have been on both sides of this issue.  I bought a subwoofer that was shoddily packed and arrived damaged and unusable.  The seller claimed that I was responsible for getting money from UPS, not him.  I fully documented the unpacking and the damage and opened a dispute.  Although PayPal initially denied my claim (!), I continued to push them with more pictures and they ruled in my favor.  The whole process did not take more than a month.

On the other side, I sold a sub, and had it professionally packed by the company that I have always used in the past.  They apparently did a lousy job and it arrived working fine but with some very minor cosmetic damage to one corner.  I had insured it for full value with Fed-X, and spoke with the buyer about what he would like to do.  I offered to have fed-x pick it up, or leave it with him and give him the money that I got from Fed-X.  Since the sub worked and the damage was minor, he kept it and I got almost all of the money from Fed-X and sent it to him.  So he got the sub for about $50 or so and was happy with how it worked out.  It was unfortunate that it wasn't packed properly, but it all worked out.  When things go wrong, the key is communication.  I think that regardless of what side you are on, talking it out reassures everyone that things will be made right.  But one thing that people must understand is that the seller is responsible for getting the equipment to the buyer in working order.  The seller is responsible for getting it packed properly, and the seller must insure it for its real value or pay the consequences.  When things go wrong, the seller must step up.

I would also file a dispute with me credit card company. Most times they work much faster than PayPal. Also, I never buy from sellers with no feedback, unless it's within driving distance and I can pay and get the item in person. 

A zero feedback buyer purchasing from a zero feedback seller… unfortunate.

Two questions… what kind of feedback did the seller have…sellers with good feedback want to protect their reputation. 
 

Did you request that the seller photograph the packaging and shipping process… this is a must if you have a claim as most shippers want double boxing as a minimum. 

Sometimes it's just inexperience, sometimes malicious intent.  Hard to say.

I recently started a transaction to buy a $5-6000 amplifier.  The seller was a nice guy, but quoted a shipping cost that I verified was way too high.  I told him I'd prefer to generate a USPS shipping label here & email it to him with a scheduled pickup date.  It would have been easier for him, since he wouldn't have to worry about shipping costs, driving the thing to the Post Office, etc.

The guy backed out of the deal, saying he was "uncomfortable" with the way things were going.  I was gobsmacked & still don't know what the problem was.  But I subsequently found a much better fit, so aborting that transaction turned out to be a good thing in the end.

One way to minimize problems like this is buying from an authorized dealer.

Hey, The main thing is make sure you follow PayPal or EBay rules during the dispute process. Also, when product is shipped using one of these services you have to take pictures and videos even before you touch the box. Shake it, Do you hear rattling, and video the unboxing. It is amazing how many time people will not take responsibility. I don’t think it was a scam. I think the seller packaged the speakers incorrectly. Typically they are packaged individually or have heavy form fitting foam. I feel this is going to be a thing in the future. Buyer beware. I would have packed those like Mahgister. Plus, You get the kudos from the buyer. I am sorry you went through this. 

Sorry My friend

I still hold my breath whenever engaging in any transaction.

Buying or selling.

I've been lucky so far but given the state of humanity these days I'm sure that will end at some point

Good luck

Buying insurance does not mean that you will get a refund if there is damage.  It only allows you to claim damage.  Carriers require packing which withstands a drop of 3 - 6 ft onto concrete.  How many packages can meet that standard?  And don’t expect insurance to pay for inadequate packing.

Factory boxes/packing are designed for shipping.  Letting an uninformed person box and pack an item is a risk.  Some people don’t know how to do it.  Ask if factory packing will be used.  If not, closely monitor packing to avoid damage.

Bubble wrap and peanuts are “air” and can only be used in certain situations.

In this case the packing would have required a miracle to arrive undamaged.

‘Double box if you want to avoid damage.  Manufacturers single box to keep cost down.  If there’s damage, the can fix and resell items as B goods.

Follow PayPal’s directions.  Ask them for a return shipping label.  Likely you will win your claim.  But also call your credit card and make a claim so you don’t miss a filing deadline.  Tell them that you’re working with PayPal.

When I sell speakers, turntables, amps, dacs, I always have the buyer show up in person with cash. I’ve done that multiple times and they have traveled over 1000 miles to pick them up, and I had the original boxes

WTheck? The average buyer (i'd assume) on audogon is probably a 60+year male, with a bad back who oughta drive a 1000 miles to pick up a... DAC?!! Pass...you can keep it bro!      

My Kef R3s were packed in one box and shipped to me by FedEx. The delivery person was a young woman who looked to be 100 Lbs soaking wet. She had no cart or hand truck. She dragged the box down the hall to me after most likely dropping it a couple of feet off the truck. The side of the box had a large split. I accepted the shipment. Fortunately, KEF has great insulated packaging. I did lose the boxes though. It made me reluctant to order anything that heavy again.

@newwater 100lbs is an arbitrary number.  My 140 lb speakers, as well as many other heavy speakers, get packaged in a well designed box and travel safely.

Packing properly I believe is number one problem under 100 lbs. Over that weight you put boxes on a pallet and ship correctly and damage is at a minimum.

If it’s a "delicate" component (tube amps, heavy amps with delicate knobs sticking out, etc that may still be under a 100 lbs). you still want to put it on a small pallet. Pallets mitigate the tossing and throwing around of boxes by the flippin lumberjacks who work in shipping companies. Fragile stickers all over the box doesn’t matter to these dudes who are throwing boxes around loading/unloading in the middle of the night. I have a younger roughneck cousin who’s worked at UPS for ages. I wouldn’t let that dude get within 20 ft of a box i was shipping. 😁

I had the opposite situation as the “green” seller of a very heavy TT packed perfectly in its original wooden crate. PP sided with the buyer after 60 days of back and forth. Arguing with PP agents is a waste of time if you are the seller.

I think you will be fine (unless you used PP FF) but PP will instruct you to return the item eventually.

Packing properly I believe is number one problem under 100 lbs.  Over that weight you put boxes on a pallet and ship correctly and damage is at a minimum.

Used audio business from private sellers really depends on network patrol and listing of previous transactions and sellers reviews on previous sales. To just list products and minimum support is like Craig’s List. Unfortunately unreliable and to be expected. 

@riccitone 

Well said. It is sad above all that someone like this seller would pollute what is normally a trusted community.

@chocaholic 

The more I get to know people, the more I like my dog.

Agree 100%. Trying to decide if this quote will be a bumper sticker on my my Maserati or if I should really lean into it and put it on my tombstone. Decisions.

I was pretty active in the used market as both a buyer and seller this past year. I saved quite a bit of money, but unsure if it was really worth it given the stress. This is a nightmare scenario I always had anxiety about. Patiently saving a little longer seems less stressful.

I drive 13 yr old base model Nissan btw.

Thanks to the OP for posting this. Lots of good information and advice on this thread.

I have been unwilling to buy speakers unless I could pick them up myself. In the most extreme example, I drove from Washington state to Georgia to buy a pair of Thiel CS6 speakers (170 lbs each). I was able to visit my daughter in Minnesota so what the heck, I was halfway there.

There seems to be several morals to this story but the main one is that we should not assume that the seller is honest or competent, especially if he has no feedback. There is a lot that can go wrong with shipping a fairly heavy set of speakers or any component without its original packaging. Murphy's law applies.

Sorry to hear of your bad experience. 
I always ask for pictures of what I’m buying before I send money. I had an awful experience with KEF and because I had pictures of the boxes still on the skid on my and pictures of the unpacking and pictures of the speakers set up,  After a FULL YEAR, I got them replaced.
 

All the best.

That is an incredible high bar, especially since many people keep original packaging, buy insurance, etc. It would result in many being unable to sell their equipment. Glad it works for this person, but he's a distant outlier to what is or can be done.

Agreed - good packing does an incredible job protecting gear. Most factory packing these days is excellent. There's no reason to shun or fear UPS / FedEx shipment of most audio components. I know there are horror stories for any carrier, but I've yet to observe a "fault" on their part, in hundreds of transactions. It always comes down to your packing quality. Things get a bit more dicey on amps & speakers over 100 lbs each - at which point you may want to go freight / pallet, or go for a local sale and either plummet the ask or wait an eternity. 

Open cell polyurethane foam is the best packing material up to a certain weight / stress limit, then you need to shift to closed cell polyethylene foam. These are the BEST general materials for shipping. Use plastic wrap to keep everything tight and protect surfaces. Peanuts and/or bubble wrap are good only for the very lightest loads. I HATE polystyrene because it fractures too easily - I use it only when I need to get rid of the stuff, and only if its fracturing won't risk anything. 

As a seller & buyer in equal measure, I feel it's 100% the seller's responsibility to guarantee a safe arrival and non-DOA.

Dress the astrological chart of the days ...And your and compare ... Selling or buying...

I am half serious...😁

😊😊

i bought a heavy amplifier, my best one at low price , i wanted it strongly from across the continent , it is impossible to buy only from known sellers ...

At the end of the day we must be cautious but it is lucky day or not ...

And some purchase matter way more than others and will affect our life or not so much if we add this device or not ...

Then there is an aspect way over the mere material transaction ...

It is like the ripples of a stone in a pound affecting or not the river bank ...

Yes i know, i am not very practical here... 😊 or perhaps after  heavy thinking i am much too practical...

When I sell speakers, turntables, amps, dacs, I always have the buyer show up in person with cash.

That is an incredible high bar, especially since many people keep original packaging, buy insurance, etc. It would result in many being unable to sell their equipment. Glad it works for this person, but he's a distant outlier to what is or can be done.

+1 @riccitone. if in fact it went down the way the op states, which i've no reason to doubt, it's remarkable how cheaply some people will sell their dignity. the speakers would have to be worth at least two grand before i'd be tempted to cheat.....

I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. It’s horrifically sad when there are those that simply choose not to take care and pride in quality components and the community in whole. The very reason for this is for others to be able to experience the joy you’ve had with a piece of equipment, or get even better use out of something that may not have worked out for you - at a better price than retail. It’s a system that should be predicated on trust. Until some selfish problematic jackhole decides to screw that up. Hope PayPal comes through for you 🙏🏼