Without knowing for certain, it seems to me that power cables can only be as good as the in-home wiring coming to the wall socket. Is it possible that those who use expensive cables have improved the wiring to the socket? Or is the power from most wall sockets normally excellent, but is limited by conventional power cables?
A 15 amp circuit usually only has 14 gauge wire in the wall. However, this wire is generally solid copper and of good quality (not audiophile copper, but of good current capacity). Most IEC cords are smaller than 14 ga. Even a 14 ga cord adds several more feet of losses. Something non-intuitive is that losses are additive. If you have 100' of 14 ga wire and 100' of 12 gauge wire, it doesn't matter what order they are in, the current delivered to the component is approximately the same so putting a 10 ga power cord downstream of 14 ga wire does make sense.
And finally, the answer to your first question is yes. Many of us upgrade the power circuit to our audio system. I have a 10 ga circuit run from the breaker box to my system.
@carlsbadthat is helpful. So more than likely, the power is mostly impeded by the last leg of inferior IEC cable. It seems almost fantastical that a $5000 power cable would make a significant difference when plugged into a standard outlet. I tend to imagine it being the final ultimate tweak on the highest end systems, but I could be wrong.
I'm curious to experience the difference myself, though honestly I'll consider lesser priced options that the AudioQuest Dragon! Since I wouldn't upgrade all my current IEC's at once, do you have any recommendations for prioritization between a Pre-amp, Power-amp or Sub?
@imaninatural I know how important it is not to appear to bash expensive equipment, but I do not recommend expensive power cables. I recommend heavy gauge power cables. I use 10 awg for all my amplifiers. I've never spent over $100 on a power cable. YMMV.
The "wiring in the wall" argument has been debated ad nauseam. What is clear for the person undecided about that argument is that there is a process to decide for oneself.
(a) Buy a good power cable with a return policy (buy used from The Music Room, e.g.)
@hilde45 I should have dug into the archives to answer the "wiring in the wall" question. But I appreciate the response and am looking forward to upgrading the cables to my amps to begin and see what kind of improvement that I hear.
One thing that I am curious about is if upgraded power cables will eliminate the issue of my lights dimming when listening at reasonable high volume.
One thing that I am curious about is if upgraded power cables will eliminate the issue of my lights dimming when listening at reasonable high volume.
No. I’m 98% sure it will not. That is due to things taking place in the circuit. You may try a new breaker. But there again, I’m not certain. I was a carpenter/building contractor most of my life.I’ll leave the better explanations of why to the electricians
FWIW I will also correct @carlsbadon the size wire in the wall going to the outlet. It is 12 ga rather than 14. I’ve seen 14 used for light switches but not outlets
@hilde45 has a great idea. Each system is different. Some will benefit from PC’s Others will not
IME they’re additive. Add a better PC, you can get better sound. Add a better outlet, you can get better sound. Add both and you get even better sound. I’ve said it over and over, but in this hobby EVERYTHING MATTERS and makes a difference. And a big +1 for dedicated lines.
If your light dim briefly at amp turn on, that's pretty normal. If your lights are dimming when using the amp your circuit is borderline overdrawn. You need to look at how extensive the line is, what other components are on it etc. A dedicated line could be helpful, a new power cord not so much. One way or another you need to lessen the overall load on the circuit. It is possible too, the outlets in the circuit are inferior and not send the "signal" very effectively. It is very much worth upgrading plugs in any circuit just to make for more robust connection etc.
@geof3the lights dim slightly on low frequency transits when I have my system turned up pretty high, otherwise it's not noticeable. Thank you for the recommendation about upgrading plugs. I think that may be an issue. The plugs are probably 40+ years old.
@imaninaturalregarding the outlets, look at light switches too. What I’ve done is started to do all the outlets in my house with commercial grade outlets and switches. The circuit that has my system was completed first. Now I’m in the process of doing the rest as time and motivation goes. I did use PS Audio Power Ports for my system, I believe it was worth it. For my other larger appliances (refridge etc) I used hospital grade outlets. If your outlets and switches are 40yrs old, they definitely need to be updated, it could literally make all the difference. BTW power cables DO make a difference, just like anything. The concept is to get the most current you can find and have it be as clean as possible one way or the other.
It would make a lot of sense for someone to start investing in a dedicated power line before even considering expensive power cords. Vince Galbo of MSB Technology has it right:
”The single biggest goal in improving audio is to install heavier gauge wire using the following guide.
1 to 40 feet: 10 gauge wire
40 to 60 feet: 8 gauge wire
Over 60 feet: 6 gauge wire
Everything else in this paper is there to be sure you get the maximum benefit from the lower resistance of heavier wire! Skipping any steps is false economy.”
I have 8 gauge copper in my dedicated line and it did make an unmistakable difference. The cost was less than $200 if I recall correctly. The electrician was $75 per hour and I bought my own cable.
It would make a lot of sense for someone to start investing in a dedicated power line before even considering expensive power cords. Vince Galbo of MSB Technology has it right:
...FWIW I will also correct @carlsbadon the size wire in the wall going to the outlet. It is 12 ga rather than 14. I’ve seen 14 used for light switches but not outlets...
That’s not true everywhere, there are tons of homes out there wired to code minimum with 14 wire on 15amp breakers for the basic outlets, less the fridge, microwave, etc. The spec home industry doesn’t spend an extra nickel that isn’t required.
@builder3 rereading your post I'm not sure we disagree. All the homes I've seen in CA have 14 gauge wire for 15 amp outlets. I just installed a new circuit for my stereo using 10 awg. The old one was 14 ga/15a. I've never come across a 12 gauge wire for 15 amp service but you can do it. In my home, all the 12 gauge circuits have a 20 amp breaker. I know because I replaced my breaker panel and breakers. --Jerry
Sadly a $5K power cord can make an astonishing improvement. A couple of direct lines can make a real improvement. As someone mentioned… it is additive. Each step need justify its cost in sound quality improvement.
I think most people start by upgrading power cords first. Even if you have previous experience with power cords, I think there is a natural desire to reinforce / rediscover why they are worth it. Once you realize / remember how big a difference they make… it is easier to do something that cannot be returned and stays with the house. I recently got equipment that used 20 amp plugs on the component side… so I had to buy all new ones… oh, Yeah, they can make a big difference. I am still experimenting with my amp power cord.
Direct lines make a big difference… standard gauge or better. Two lines are preferred… a 10 gauge (or go wild) for the amp, the other for the rest of the components. By the way even with a direct line… my system sounds better with my power conditioner than without.
Does it make any sense to use a small spade or ring terminal crimped to the romex when we install our new audiophile outlets? I can't think of anywhere else we would use a bare wire connection or un-terminated except inside of a piece of gear or a speaker crossover and those are soldered.
I finally installed a dedicated line to my listening room. I used quality solid core 11ga wire from a new sub-panel to make the main run short as possible, installed a quality outlet and have very good power cord. The change was like a new component and improved everything across the board especially the big class A SS amp I have. Everything took a while to break-in but this was a worthwhile improvement. I only wished I had done it sooner.
Thank you, everyone, for your responses today. It has made me really start digging in to a series of improvements that I think can be done. @erik_squires aka "bare wire as God intended" (love that) Thank you for linking your articles, they were very helpful, especially since I was being led to consider power strips as well.
I haven't really focused at all on the power side of the equation, so I have quite a bit of "low hanging fruit", in other words relatively inexpensive improvements that I can definitely make to gauge the incremental sound improvement.
If the improvement is noticeable, I may not stop...sound familiar? 😎
@builder3 rereading your post I'm not sure we disagree. All the homes I've seen in CA have 14 gauge wire for 15 amp outlets. I just installed a new circuit for my stereo using 10 awg. The old one was 14 ga/15a. I've never come across a 12 gauge wire for 15 amp service but you can do it. In my home, all the 12 gauge circuits have a 20 amp breaker. I know because I replaced my breaker panel and breakers. --Jerry
Jerry, I agree. My reply was meant for Artemus who said he hadn't seen 14 gauge used for outlets. I did an awful job of trying to quote his post. And yes, you can use 12 gauge with a 15A breaker, but it's pointless.
@imaninatural- I don't know what experience you have had personally with power cables, so I'll share my very limited experience and make a recommendation. I had been curious about the possibility of power cords making an audible difference and ran across a recommendation for W Audio power cords that are available on Amazon for about $50. I figured that this was a relatively inexpensive opportunity to satisfy my curiosity so I picked up a pair of them. I put one on my Pathos Classic One MkIII (hooked to a power conditioner) and the other on my Maverick Audio DAC. The sound of my system changed significantly and I realized that I was using my SACD player as the source so the only difference was the power cord on my amplifier. I can't say that I have noticed a definitive difference with the other two power cords in my system (i.e. DAC and Power Conditioner), but it absolutely improved the sound of my amplifier. The improvement was significant enough that it caused me to try some Audioquest interconnects that also surprised me which led to me trying an Audioquest digital cable that I can't say did anything in my system. If you have not played around with power cords at all, spend $50 on a W Audio power cable that you can have in a couple of days and see what happens. If you're an audiophile $50 isn't a lot to satisfy your curiosity.
I can't definitely say that if a W Audio cable doesn't yield a change in your system that another "better" cord won't, but it's a place to start.
I moved into my house in the Phoenix area not that long ago. I recently had an electrician over to install two Furutech outlets in the area where the prior owner had his stereo equipment. To my pleasant surprise, the two outlets were 20 amp and I have power conditioners plugged into each one. But how can one know what the gauge is for the wire running from the pole (or breaker) through my house?
You can measure the size at the outlet. That’s not 100%, but there normally shouldn’t be any change in wire size after the panel. You can also look at it in the panel at the breaker, if you're comfortable removing the panel cover. All the wires will be exposed, including the main service wires. Act accordingly.
I think all 15 and 20 amp outlets in a home are now required to be tamper-resistant. The Hubbell heavy use hospital grade outlet listed above (HBL8300GY) is not according to the specification. For tamper-resistant ones, look for HBL8300SGxx.
audioquest overcharges for their wire they're buying it from neotech in Taiwan which makes some of the best OCC single crystal wire which is the best wire for audio so you can look at companies like Harmonic technology acoustic Zen zenwave they all use OCC single Crystal and are a lot cheaper than audioquest which over charges like crazy.
Like many others you say the last six feet of passive cable can make a big difference. How? Why is the last six feet different from the five miles or whatever of cable from the power station to your home and all the transformers, joints etc etc on the way? Please explain in terms of physics how a passive cable can do this, absent active components and power conditioners that certainly can affect the quality of the power we receive.
One thing that I am curious about is if upgraded power cables will eliminate the issue of my lights dimming when listening at reasonable high volume.
If the lights are on the same circuit as the amp, then probably yes.
If not, then you likely have something like a 40A service coming into an old house.
They have volt meters that plug into a socket, just plug it in somewhere else see what the voltage goes to when the amps kick.
If you amp is causing lights to dim you have an extreme power problem. If the lights are dimming significantly, the circuit is overloaded, the breaker should be tripping. The circuit is overloaded. There is an increased fire risk. Jerry
If you amp is causing lights to dim you have an extreme power problem. If the lights are dimming significantly, the circuit is overloaded, the breaker should be tripping. The circuit is overloaded. There is an increased fire risk. Jerry
We do not know that for sure…
I used to turn on a table saw and the light in the garage would go out when it started up.
(Yeah the birds jumped off of the wire with hot feet.)
But if there is 30A on a 40A feed from the pole, and only 12A on a 15A breaker, it does not mean a fire is imminent. That is what people use breakers and fuses for.
There are VERY, VERY few, if any, HIFI systems that one could hear the difference a 3' piece of high voltage AC cable could make. And even less "ears" to hear the difference. I truly believe this is a "visual" improvement .
"I can't see the 100' of feet of wire in the walls, so it is fine......But that black rubber 36" power cord has to go........
There are actually very many systems and listeners that can identify the difference power cords make. It seems counterintiutive that a couple of meters of cable can make a difference, but many listeners find the difference audible. There are plenty of other threads as to the empirical reasons for this.
However, in order of priority and value for money, it makes sense to ensure that the wiring and sockets that precede the mains cord are up to scratch. The case of the dimming lights that prompted this particular thread exemplifies this perfectly.
Well first off were I love by electrical code a 15 amp circuit has to have a 14 gauge wire no more no less. You cannot by code have heavier wire on a 15 amp circuit. A 20 amp circuit requires a 12 gauge wire no more no less.
Also the Hubbell plugs are ok but even though it is pricey the top of the line furutech plugs are stunning in the improvement that happens with them. I personally have never found a power conditioner that I like. All of them do something's better and a few or more things wrong. The furutech receptacles just make improvements nothing go worse only better. I personally believe that power conditioner s are a bandaid Tring to cover up aore.basic problem. I have seven dedicated 20 amp circuits going into my listening room. All are on one leg of the fuse box. (220 comes into your home and there are two legs to it when you have a 220 plug the double breaker feeds half from each leg that's how you get 220) it you have more than one circuit in your room if they are on difference legs the potential to ground is different and likely sounds bad compared to having them both on one leg. The wire in the wall is all the exact same length as well and is crossed over each other not run parallel the whole way. The furutech receptacles made a huge difference over the industrial plugs I started with. The bass appeared in my system and a huge increase in resolution. That continued with adding furutech top of the line plugs and IEC ends to the transparent power cords I have. The levinson monoblocks have a non replaceable power cord or fixed to the amps. Changing the plug on the end of those cords was a major improvement even though the amps have power regeneration internally. A big difference,personally I find it hard to believe the increase I have had in resolution from addressing the power side of things. Lol I thought I was near the top before I did a bunch of changes.as an example I have played my system for a few non audiophile friends and they start to cry when listening to it. Remember that everything changes the sound some for the better some for the worse. You have to be able to listen and be able to write off the expense when something you buy doesn't sound right. At the moment I have a couple sets of the feet of silence that are sitting in a drawer. I spent a bunch on them and I didn't like the results. So they are not in the system to show and expenses tweak I have. I will try them as things change there maybe a place for them in the future but so fare i don't like them in either system. When I bought the plug and IEC ends for my HiFi cords I wondered if I should put the money towards a better power cord as the two plugs for each cord were eight hundred dollars per cord and the transparent cords were 550 each back in the day. I had a visit with Cris Johnson the fellow I purchased them from who also carries way higher priced cords that he could have bought told me he thought I would get years of enjoyment out of what I had with the better plugs on them. Chris was the owner designer of Sonic frontier equipment still the owner of parts connection. I tried one cord at a time it was a great time as each one made a big improvement and I was sure before I bought another one that it was truly an improvement. He also knows that if he recommended a high line power cord that I am am fortunate enough that I can purchase them. I also knew when I bought them if I didn't like them they would be a hard sell to even get half my money back. Very much like my opinion on the feet of silence. I think getting most of my money back is really unlikely. So go slow and in steps to get to where you want to be. Starting at the source is the place and in this case I mean your breaker box. Have fun Regards
I guess I was lucky in that my whole house was wired with 20 amp circuits. We bought the house in 2016 and it had ben built in 2008. The original owner was a computer guru and had the circuits all 20 amp.
There are actually very many systems and listeners that can identify the difference power cords make. …
…
The case of the dimming lights that prompted this particular thread exemplifies this perfectly.
The later is provable with a light meter, or other methods to show the lightning flickering. A lighting company could produce a graph of lumins versus time and produce a “strobe metric”.
The former case is a more of testamony like the Thomas (or what it another fellow on the road?.) The cable makers could show something happening with out just resorting to talk about the quantum world.
So it is not exemplified perfectly.
There is no proof in here that a cord would help the lights
And, in fact, the fellow/lady does not mention the sound changing, only the lights flickering. So he/she/they are either suffering visual hallucinations, or the sound is not very affected by the voltage.
Well first off were I love by electrical code a 15 amp circuit has to have a 14 gauge wire no more no less. You cannot by code have heavier wire on a 15 amp circuit. A 20 amp circuit requires a 12 gauge wire no more no less.
That is highly unlikely. That’s because determining the proper wire gauge for a circuit includes considering more than just the amperage. Under the NEC, which sets the minimum requirements for electrical installs, you also have to calculate the length of the run and whether the cable is enclosed in conduit. I’m not calling you a liar, @retiredfarmer - you probably were just given bad info. It's just a simple fact that using a 14 ga. wire on a 15A line is not by itself a guarantee of safety. Consider that the purpose of the breaker is to protect the wire in the wall.
@yoyoyaya@rbertalotto I can understand that the effect of upgrading power to improve sound has been a point of debate; however, there are some good recommended changes that I can make without spending a bundle (like better outlets).
If I have the experience of believing that it improves the sound, then I'll consider further upgrades. I'm not really skeptical about the improvements that good power can make empirically, but I also know that I hear with more than my ears.
The visual landscape makes a big difference in my enjoyment of the sound and my satisfaction of solid power could add another facet to my enjoyment. I don't have super high expectations, but would be delighted to be able to hear an improvement in soundstage, clarity and instrument separation. And that would actually be awesome!
First I'll upgrade my 40 year old electrical outlets, then go from there.
One thing that I am curious about is if upgraded power cables will eliminate the issue of my lights dimming when listening at reasonable high volume.
I had that happen to me in an older home. Over the years the connections at the wall outlet can become loose. The simple fix was to shut off the circuit at the panel. After verifying the circuit was cold, I removed the plate and pulled the outlet out from the wall just far enough I could get a screwdriver on the screws and tightened them up again. A couple were barely finger tight! Once retightened, problem solved! You might try this simple and free fix.
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