So I have a deal set up for a new to me pre here on Audiogon. The issue is the seller only wants to excepts a certified bank check. I have never paid this way before and I am a bit nervous. He says all the right things almost to much honestly. He does on the other hand have fifty some positive reviews and I talked to him on the phone as well. Which is when I got a bit more suspicious after he offered me a deal on a disk player at below half market value. He seems genuinely nice but I’m sure the best scammers do. Is there any way to get extra insurance that everything is legit? And would you guys be ok with it being he has 50 positive reviews over nearly 20 year span? Looking forward to people thought. And thanks.
A few years ago I sold something to a guy in TX who said, with this purchase he was back on Audiogon after several years' hiatus. He told me that he previously purchased a McIntosh amp on the site, and received a McIntosh amp carton that was packed with phone books. As the seller was also from TX, he was able to get law enforcement to intervene and eventually got his money returned.
Last year we did a major interstate move, to a home where I didn't need my Honda snowblower. Long-story-short, I listed the Honda on the local Craigslist and received what looked like a cashier's check, but it was a fraud...one that the FBI was familiar with!
I joined AG in 1997 when AG first began. I was contacted by an AG agent posting on Usenet, advising a new website for audio sells was available. The website looked a lot different back then. There was a scroll board that refreshed with new sells and buys every 24 hours.
Who else here remembers Audio Web, another common site for sells, as well. It was the wild west, and back then we bought and sold via usenet as well. We prepaid for everything, sending checks and money orders everywhere. This was from 1995 on until the very early 2000’s, and about then things changed. There was a segment of the population that weren’t as honest so you had to conduct buying and selling differently. It began with fraudulent Cashiers Checks, as I recall. PayPal was nonexistent.
Am I the only one who was on here before Paypal existed? Back in the day, say circa 2000, you mailed the seller a check, and the seller would ship when the check cleared! Obviously times, and Paypal, have changed things, but with an established seller and a transaction that felt right I would have no problem sending someone a check.
Years ago, back in 2003, I prepaid $1k for a "good deal" amplifier here on AGON by cashiers check to a AG seller who also sold the same item to 12 other people by cashiers check.
AG refused to do anything about it. They said it was a private sell between buyer and seller.
Moral of the story. Never, ever, prepay via a cashiers check. I never saw that $1k ever again. The police reported that the seller’s address was actually a PO Box that he signed up for with a FAKE ID.
Purchase prepaid via a cashiers check at your own peril.
The worst thing that could happen is if you went through this & got what you paid for as promised. You would then at some point think you could do it again on AG and/or in life in some other way.
What you're doing here (& this is an excellent analogy) is playing Russian roulette with at least 2 bullets in the revolver. Even if the odds are slightly on your side (by no means a given in this instance) it's an undeniably stupid chance to take. As humans, our ability to rationalize is exponentially greater than any other life form. If you wish to do so to justify going forward with this & it doesn't work, you'll objectively see - you should've seen it. If it does, you'll rationalize it was somehow the right thing to do & keep pointing this kind of gun to your head in other places & ways in life, not just AG. Your critical thinking abilities will just get flushed down the toilet & in insidious ways. The gun's going to go off & that's a guarantee. A matter of when - not if. You'll look stupid then because that's undeniably how you acted with considerable forethought.
Call him on his escrow proclamation & report him if he refuses. You'll then protect yourself & so many others simultaneously. That's as moral as it is intelligent.
I take bitcoins, wire transfers and personal checks only.
What is ironic is back when I was in the big data business my team built the platform on which PayPal built their first anti-fraud system. No more PP Mr. Thiel.
Yup got a 1099 from PayPal for like $2k. Had to line item it on my taxes to proove it wasn't profit. Maybe that's another reason the dude wants a check.
PayPal has started providing 1099 forms to the IRS. Mine overstated my 2020 sales income significantly. Now I’m rethinking if it makes sense to exchange the convenience of PayPal with their misrepresentation of my sales income to IRS. This may have something to do with the OP’s seller refusal to take PayPal. I don’t know anything about the seller or buyer in this case, but I wouldn’t rush to judgment.
Don't take one. They are not the same as cash or paypal. They van be forged and they can be cancelled; I find they're often used in scams in fact people have ot go out of their way (supposedly) to drive to a bank to cut a check when paypal, venmo are super convenient and at least Paypal is secure. After years of seeing them used in scams in retail stores I ran as well as car dealerships I view them as a red flag.
Looking at the listing and the seller does not have feedback for the last 3 years would be a deal breaker. Another thing I noticed is the pre amp only weighs 26 lbs. A McIntosh box probably weighs 20 lbs. The weight should be at least 40/50 lbs. The $2150 price is probably the lowers a c46 has sold for. Quite a few selling around $2400. It you send him a check and in fact he ships the preamp to you and the glass is broken. You are screwed. I sold McIntosh for years and they have to be packed perfectly to protect the glass. McIntosh has never accepted any item for repair without the correct McIntosh box for the component.All that being said, you might be saving $350 on the deal but is $350 worth al the stress you will have waiting to see if in fact you get the c46 and second it is not damaged and working. Either use Escrow.com or Pay Pal or walk away. Not worth the stress.
I wouldn't do it. I would pay the paypal fees but I wouldn't do it. I actually paid once with a cashier's check and the transaction worked really well, but the only reason I did it was that my best friend lived in the same city. I at least knew someone can go and knock on that door if I didn't get my item.
I just went through something similar. $3K component. Seller says no PayPal and is vague about the reason. Doesn't respond when I ask if I can pay him by credit card. Seems like a good guy though — I talk to him over the phone. He's got fine feedback but mostly on a different site. IF that's even him. Hmm.
We decide to both sign up with escrow.com but the process is so tragically convoluted and the fees so hefty that we mutually decide to go with COD instead.
He ships the component and sends me the tracking number and the package just sits and sits in the UPS system, not moving for eight days. Maybe it's the cold and ice, he says (he lives in the South).
Fast-forward to yesterday. The box finally arrives, a full week late, but I can't take possession because, contrary to what we'd discussed, seller has apparently indicated to UPS he needs a money order or cashier's check. I only have a personal check. But here's where it gets REALLY strange: someone (seller? UPS clerk?) seems to have transposed the numbers, and instead of $3,000, the COD amount is $250.91 — which is the price of packing plus shipping plus insurance. What? I can get a three thousand dollar product for less than a tenth of the price?! It looks like if anyone is going to screw someone else over, here's my chance (not that I would!). I call the seller and he seems as confused as I am. After some thinking, and with the seller's blessing, I drive to my bank and get a money order for $250.91. On my way back, I happen to see the UPS driver, and give him the money order in exchange for the package. Now I owe the seller a hair under $2,750. We agree that I'll just mail him a personal check. (!!)
OK, on to the package. Whatever is inside is double-boxed and super well packed. I peel off layers and layers of bubble wrap while my daughter video-records the whole thing so I'll have a record if something isn't right. Briefly I wonder if the seller has shipped me some bubble-wrapped bricks. And then I finally open the product box and ...
None of what I see has been touched since it left the factory. The component is pristine, per seller's description. The protective cling film is still on the unit and the remote. There's a bill of sale from a legit U.S. dealer, made out to seller. I plug in the component, set it up, and everything works flawlessly. Whew.
All's well that ends well. Seller even sent ME a check for $100 last week because the shipping costs (which I was covering) were so high and he felt that helping me pay them was "the right thing to do." Like I said: good guy.
Despite the happy ending, this transaction definitely caused more nail-biting and aggravation than I signed up for. And I for damn sure wish that everyone who sells and buys audio just used PayPal! :-
A pass from me two. Im always leery of folks that haven't done anything in years then pop up. I've had several crooks manage to steal an old members credentials. You can also check their discussion posts, you can google earth their address, also ask Audiogon CS to check them out. In the end better safe than sorry.
Remember, Paypal solely protects the buyer and not the seller and Audiogon is now in bed with Paypal and only allows paypal transactions, unless one can arrange payment some other way. I have sold many items over the years to people that lived close enough to drive by, listen to the unit and pay in cash.
So, in this type of case, paypal is simply useless. Also, since I really hate using paypal, I always tell potential buyers that if they insist on me using paypal, then they have to pay the paypal fee. My listing price never includes the paypal fee. ever!
There is risk on both ends. I accept personal checks and bank cashiers checks. But, I won't ship until my bank tells me that it has cleared. Is there a risk for the buyer? yes? I sold a classic car to a gentleman in Germany a few years back. After much back and forth on the phone, we agreed on a price. Pictures, documents, etc. were sent. He wire transferred the funds to me and a shipping company came to my home to pick up the car after my bank told me the funds were good. Did the buyer take a risk? yes. But, communication and documents helped.
I don't like paypal and don't like being told by audiogon what form of payment I have to take, (because I don't). But I will use it if the buyer insist and then they have to pay the paypal fee. That's on them. not me, because I don't want to use it in the first place.
Nothing wrong with a cashier's check. Take the time to have conversations with the seller. Try to confirm that he/she actually own the item and it isn't a scam. Pictures of the actual unit and serial number and if they have a receipt that helps also. Where did they buy it, etc.
Going in the other direction, it's unwise to take a cashier's check and ship merchandise immediately. There are fakes out there, and your bank has no liability. One of the members of another forum I frequent took a cashier's check for a musical instrument that bounced several weeks later. No recourse. I received a fake B of A check that was incredibly well done - even impressed the folks at my local B of A. I haven't seen one, but apparently there are counterfeit postal money orders as well. Forewarned is forearmed!
I'm amazed how many people here are so quick to accuse the seller, with 18 years of positive feedback on Agon, to be a scammer.
OP, have you just tried calling and speaking with the seller? Maybe do a facetime call where the seller can demo the unit for you on the call?
Use the Escrow company and they should be able to accept a USPS money order.
Or perhaps you have a friend or relative that lives nearby the seller that could pick up the item and ship it to you. (??) My advise would be if the OP doesn't feel comfortable with any transaction, just move on. That's not to say the seller is automatically a scammer, either.
Based on his reviews it seems like he's a top notch seller. However since the last review was in 2017, he may have gotten out of the game and this is just a one-off sale of his personal preamp. He also may not want to incur additional fees beyond what he's paying for the listing. The fact that the payment method says escrow.com but the text in his listing states cashier's check only is confusing, so here's what you do. Escrow.com will cost $65 if he agrees with you to let you use it and pay by wire or (believe it or not) check or money order. They hold the funds until he provides tracking information and they see that the package is delivered to you. You have to read their terms but sounds pretty straightforward. You both feel protected, that's what is most important! I just sold a Conrad Johnson preamp on here yesterday. Within 5 minutes after I accepted the offer, the funds were deposited and available in my PayPal account. There has to be a certain amount of trust in any business transaction, no matter what anyone else here has told you. That goes for any business, anywhere and especially with online transactions. That trust only comes from an individual's comfort level with the opposite party in the transaction and their transparency about the item for purchase as well as any other background info (ie:reviews) that can be obtained before proceeding with the purchase/sale. My best advice is to be candid with him. You cannot risk a check payment without an intermediary to make sure item is shipped before he receives payment. If he says no, you move on. But don't just walk away without presenting it to him first. If he is truly the top notch seller that his reviews say he is, he will understand and try to work it out with you. Or not. At least you won't have to wonder if you could somehow have changed his mind. Hope this helps you make your decision.
Ask Audiogon about the older feedback. I've done that before and got a response from them saying it all looks ok and nothing appears to have changed like email addresses or out of character activity. Audiogon has no interest in having scammers on here.
A Bank check is automatically debited from your bank account by the teller so the bank has no liability in the transaction once you walk away with the check. Your account is debited period. You can only place a stop payment on the check usually after 90 days. So basically you can pay him instead through PayPal as a family or friend to avoid the fees as it should also be debited out of your bank account if you select that option. I am not sure why he won't accept PayPal that way.
Using the Escrow is an option that I would present to the seller. I believe you both need to register an account for this transaction.
Is there a local dealer in his area that you can call and pay a few dollars for where he can drop off the unit, get it inspected and shipped to you once you pay the dealer his cut plus shipping costs and then the dealer can hand the bank check to the seller?
IMO there is never only one special deal on something you may have to wait but they will come back up.
If you are so hesitant to do this then just pass on it.
Hello, Also PayPal can be squirrelly too. A company went into my wife’s account and signed her up for a service. PayPal said they give access to some vendors to accounts if the person has done business in the past. They company said the service renewed quarterly, but they tried to put the transaction through at the year mark even though it was cancelled 6 months earlier. She had to prove she did not signup. Luckily the service could not provide any documentation. 3hrs worth of calls! We need a new way to pay. Needless to say my wife severed her PayPal account and informed the bank to prevent further transactions. Just a heads up. The big companies can be scammers too.
Hello, I know this might be over the top. Have a Lawyer hold the money in escrow. Have the product shipped to the lawyers office. He is holding your $2k. When you come to pick it up make sure the product is what it is. He cuts a check to the seller. Like buying a house. No lawyer would get disbarred for $2k. If the guy has a problem he is a scammer. I would let audiogon know about this seller if he is dishonest.
Did you Google him lots of info on people there. You could also call the local police to find out if he's had problems with be them. I think it's safe if you thoroughly check him out. I've bought multiple pieces that way never a problem.
I would take the chance. The guy has a lot of transactions over the years and has been a member for over 20 years. Drive to his house, give him the check and take the merchandise home with you. Simple.
"Trust" and "transfer" are issues for buying and selling anything online. Without a trusted intermediary (like an escrow company), either the buyer or the seller must assume a weak position and be forced to trust the other party.
Often times, escrow companies require casheir's checks to make the transaction happen faster. Also, from the seller's perspective, waiting for a personal check to clear vs accepting a cashier's check are about the same thing.
Without transacting a lot online, it can be hard to know whether you're being overly cautious, or whether your being taken advantage of.
I would pass. If the seller wants to use Audiogon or other online forums he needs to be prepared to accept forms of payment which are the norm. It makes no sense that he says he is old school when he is using the internet to sell his gear. If you send a bank check you loose all the buyer protections that Paypal affords. Red flags go up immediately when I hear stories like this.
I think that the OP is being paranoid and most comments have supported his paranoia. I would make the deal without sweating over it. It sounds legit, and after all, you have to trust someone sometime.
If I get a response of "old school" and they want a cashier's check or money order, that terminates the sale as far as I'm concerned. If I don't feel right about it, then it's not right for me, although the person selling might be an honest person. @glupson, Friends & Family gives you absolutely no protection, and the person can take your money and run, with you having no recourse with PayPal.
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