Opinions on the current market
Comments about good buyers and sellers is true -- because a truism. But your question deserves better; it has to do with the wider environment, and whether there is some advantage for buyers. I have had this same question, and I started looking in December. Here is what I’ve seen, scanning both local stores, online trading sites (US Audiomart, HiFi Shark), and online stores. There are deals out there — but, right now, the market is stronger than I thought it would be. While there is uncertainty about the economy, many who buy audio gear have a lot of disposable monies, and they’re shut inside; the audio makers I am in touch with report very good business. But I do think they’re concerned about the longer term. A conversation about price is not unreasonable. 20% discount is not unreasonable. Where to look? The suggestion about brick/mortar stores is a good one (not sure who your local ones are, but they’re worth talking to); some of these brick/mortar stores also sell online — I’ve seen good deals at places like Echo Hifi, Saturday Audio Exchange, Gig Harbor audio, Audio Alternative, Paragon Sight and Sound. Also, The Music Room (online only), is an excellent, excellent and safe source — with a trial period for used gear. Many sweet deals there. You asked about tube preamps. I’ve just bought my first one, and I got a good deal with my local shop — it’s a Quicksilver, so there’s not much markup on it to begin with. I got the line stage non-remote version, and I think it’s an excellent value for the money, sale or not. There are others I came close to buying — Erhard audio’s Ella (small maker, no discount) Cary Audio (bigger) had some excellent sales and Audio by Van Alstine’s sale page is really worth looking at. I see Rogue Audio on sale in many places. There are other very well respected tube preamps which I have never seen on sale anywhere and I rarely see them on used sites: Herron, deHavilland, Sachs, Atmas-phere, Aric Audio, Erhard, Supratek, Modwright, Blue Circle, VAC. Among these, within my budget for a preamp (about $2k, max), if I had not gone with Quicksilver, I probably would have looked hard at Aric, Erhard, Supratek — and maybe deHavilland (a bit more, if I recall). What about the online trading forums, such as Ebay, US Audio Mart, Audiogon? I saw some very good deals arise on these sites, including gear by Quicksilver, VAC, and Jolida/Black Ice. Here, the wider environment factor affecting buyers and sellers can become prominent, as people decide (based on their own economic situation) that their $4000 preamp is worth letting go of for $2000 cash. While I’ve not owned a lot of gear, I’ve learned a lot by shopping around, bookmarking sites, visiting everyday, and taking notes over the past four months. I created a folder with bookmarks that go directly to the sale/clearance pages and I’d scan them, putting notes into a separate table and searching forums for experienced judgments. Good luck! |
Markets aren’t always equally as good for buyers and sellers. Liquidity of inventory is a major factor. Just look at periods of time or geographies that affect real estate. Tell me the time to sell your house was best in 2009 when prices were plunging and foreclosures ruled. That was a buyers market! It’s also not the greatest opportunity to buy a home when there is no inventory and buyers engage in bidding wars often sight unseen. To categorize markets, including used and new audio gear, as equally beneficial to both parties as a constant is deeply flawed analysis. If folks need to raise cash they will sell at deeper discounts and that is a better opportunity for the buyer...this isn’t difficult calculus. I don’t care how "good" of a buyer you are, the seller isn’t going to sell the item to you at a price lower than what he knows he can fetch within 24 hrs from someone else. Stock markets work the same....look for periods of time when we’ve drifted far from the mean and assess. No one has ever heard the expression "sell into strength and buy into weakness"???? As we now have surpassed 30 million lost jobs in just a couple of months it would tough to categorize the period we are entering as anything but a buyer's market soon. I don't think we've seen anything close to full impact of this effect yet from the current crisis. |
Speaking of Ponzi schemes, what is it exactly you are going to sell for? Federal Reserve Notes you mistakenly refer to as dollars is my guess. But we haven't had dollars for a long time now. The word by the way comes from Thaler, the valley in Europe where vast amounts of silver were mined and made into the silver coins that were world currency at the time of the nations founding. The coins featured an insignia, a pole with a long flag spiraling around it, that in stylized fashion looked something like this $. Back then there was actual tangible value in the money. Over time claim checks were issued representing the value held on deposit. These claim checks were known as bank notes. A note is a loan. The claim checks circulated but people could redeem the notes for the actual metal held on deposit. The value always was in the metal. The notes never were anything more than paper. Like you leave your clothes at the dry cleaners, he gives you a claim check. Same as that. Somehow over time people were duped into believing the paper is the value. To the point that today people feel perfectly correct in lecturing about markets and buyers and sellers and all without ever once being aware of the fundamental dishonesty that lies at the foundation of all they are talking about. When you sell your component you are trading a thing of tangible value for something of zero intrinsic value. We just made 20 trillion more of them, without even the slightest effort. What do you suppose would happen to amplifiers and speakers if they could do that? Right. You're not even close to what you should really be worried about. |
@hilde45You got my point, thanks, as did @three-easy-payments: buyers vs sellers market. In reading old posts while researching used pre’s, some of the ‘you can get xyz-brand/model within your budget, used’ answers have equipment that is way higher than the quoted budget in today’s prices. On the face of it, that would seem used gear prices are on the rise. I’m thinking used to minimize risk, despite having had good luck in the past. But if a piece is selling for $2K now, I’d like to know I can get close to that amount back if I find I don’t like it in my system. I’m not looking to be greedy and make money, I just don’t want to loose my shirt. |
@english210 your objectives are completely understandable and of course you want to get your money back if only because it facilitates trying something else. The process of experimentation with audio is an aesthetic one; and is intrinsically enjoyable for many. Being able to conduct those experiments depends on not losing a lot of money on each experiment. It’s not about the money, but about keeping the romantic tension alive, as long as possible. (“Audiophilia As Courtly Love” would make a good article title!) |
I would rather be holding US Dollars right now over any other world paper currency. Just look at the USD outperform every world currency since the beginning of the year as the demand for dollars is running off the charts. This being fueled in part by fears of Europe cancelling its currency and the IMF even talking about launching a program to address the global shortage of dollars! The fact that the IMF is talking about providing a backup to the Fed’s campaign to help Central banks but creating a repo market for them to get dollars shows just how incredible the shortage of US dollars is. Yep, give me US dollars any day in our current environment. This could create a great buying opportunity for US consumers to purchase audio gear for example being sold in Europe in the near future. |
@english210 I struggled with that too. But the non-remote version is a different design and multiple people convinced me that non-remote is the way to go. Since I'm streaming a lot, I have control over that volume, so it's not a big hassle. Here's what I wound up with, much during the last couple months: SPEAKERS
CABLES
POWER
And since this thread is about saving $, here is what I saved via sales or used off list price:
Do I know how much to attribute to Covid/current market forces? No, I don't. Maybe people shopping carefully do this all the time. |
@Ihasaguy I’ve noticed that, but for some reason I’ve never been interested in Mac. I have a dealer close, and aside from their setup that used the OMG Sonus Fabers in a huge room with the biggest amps, a system that cost more than my house, I’ve not been impressed. It doesn’t draw me in. Your point is well taken on their ability to hold value, though! |
English, Lesson on buying when uncertain-as I am always- 1. Patience 2. No unknown makers 3. Original owner only. 4. Not over 2 years old If you follow the above your odds of unloading a change of heart purchase without getting a sharp haircut are much improved. Now back to your actual question. My suggestions is to buy an refurb. Audible Illusions from maker or one his two favorite retailers. Get the "L" model which comes with a remote. Important for resale. If you don't think the AI is the right match, Hilde's list does not seem to contain any definite "Nos" in my book. |
The market is weird right now. Lots of people are selling but just as many people are sitting at home, listening critically to their systems and are buying. If you look, there are very few silly deals out on the used market. If you want new gear and are willing to buy what someone has in stock, brick and mortar retailers are hurting. Liquidating inventory, even with minimal profit frees up cash and cash flow is a concern. Store demos always represent a good value and that is where you can probably turn up an unusually good deal. Don't expect it in the used market at this time. Maybe in a couple months if the lock-down continues. Regarding your tube pre, what features are you looking for? How much gain do you need? I have my a retail demo for sale but have no idea if it is a decent fit for your gear. |
Wants/needs list: remote HT bypass (although I can get around it, and may do that since I’m also concerned about ‘burning up’ tube life when the system is in tv/movie watching mode, and most but NOT all pres require the pre is on for bypass to work). I’d like balanced connections, as even on my Marantz AVP8802a from my Oppo balanced outputs, it does sound slightly better. @verdantaudio I don’t know about gain, my Odyssey Stratos is spec’d at 22Kohm impedance, if that helps. No phono, the only source will be the Oppo (and AVP via HT input). @chorus. Your points are good, although the 2 year old part may be tough(er). That’s one reason I’m thinking of older ‘heavy hitter’ brands where the vast majority of depreciation will have occurred already. thanks all!! |
@chorus. I was going to dutifully ignore your first rule, but in fairness to myself, I’ve been looking/reading/researching since just before the lockdown. Actually, probably a month before, since I had a few weekends when I relistened to a PL EVO400 at my local store a few times. But I get your point :) |
I have bought a lot of used audio gear. I bought and sold used industrial equipment for twenty years. I am a sharp buyer. About two months ago the asking prices softened for just about everything except some medical gear. In six months to a year it should be a fire sale buyers market. Wait. This pandemic is going to get worse, There are not going to be as many buyers. The owners - private and store front are going to need money and they are going to sell low low low. |
The simple answer is to "get out and listen" and if possible "try before you buy". That’s the only way if you want to increase the chance of getting it right the first time. / Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se (high-end audio consultant) |
I agree to a point. It’s impossible to hear everything first, and doubly so to hear everything, in my system, before buying. I’m going to have to take a risk and theoretically, multiple risks. The first piece I buy may improve my SQ, but still not be the ‘right’ answer. I’m looking hard at some older, higher line pieces in the $2K range. Hoping the depreciation is mostly done, and I could recover most of the dollars if needed. |
Spend some time investigating the used market to determine which preamps have stable values and which do not. Audible Illusions and Audio Research are 2 brands that have great reputations, and hold value over time. Vintage Marantz 7c or McIntosh C20/C22 also hold value. If you were to audition one preamp from each of the above, you will likely hear different results from each when added to your system, hopefully allowing you to choose what sounds best to you. Then the others can be resold for what you paid (or maybe a little more....). |
@mapman I heard an interview with Jeff Joseph on Stereophile's Youtube channel and he said that while he is selling things, with something of a return policy, business is undoubtedly slower. I was even entertaining some Ohm/Walsh speakers, which sound like a good deal -- free shipping. But only free shipping TO me, not free shipping back to them. So, not cheap to try. PS Audio pays the shipping each way, so that's a nice way to really try things without risk. All that said, it really doesn't take long to rule something out in a store. If I listen to 5 sets of speakers in an hour, I at least narrow it down. The idea of paying and having things shipped to me seems like a good approach -- if I have already narrowed it down, first. But, as you point out, that initial listening experience is SO key. |
I was in a local hifi shop just before things started shutting down. The owner was saying how shipments out of China were coming to a halt due to the pandemic at the source. I would think most every maker in most any country must be affected that way by now. Not to mention the economic impact to buyers. Add that all up and it would indicate markets are slow currently but supply and demand both affected. |
