Non-fatiguing speakers in $10K range?

@mm1tt77 - Looking at Revel Salon 2, it sounds nice actually, but I have concern with 86 Db sensitivity while my amp is technically 30W Class A (although Accuphase does spec 60 and even 120 W to 2 Ohms, I guess class AB). F328Be appears to be 91 Db, but may people prefer Salon 2 sound.

PROAC

GoldenEar T66, Magnepan 3.7 (only if you have a Maggie-friendly room), KEF LS-60, Monitor Audio Gold 200. Any of those will fit your requirements, and they couldn’t be more different: a fully powered system, the LS-60s, the hybrid T-66, a traditional passive speaker with the G200s; and the dipole quasi-ribbon panels that make Magnepans unlike anything you’ve likely ever owned. Personally, if you have the room for them, I’d go.with the Magnepans. They will make your jaw drop on a regular basis.

@ditusa - it says "performance of horns can be achieved", not that the speaker employs (or sounds like) horns. In that sense Revel (or few others) are "horns" because they use tweeter inside a waveguide... :-)

After all, I own them and they don't sound like horns at all. Typical British sound.

between 10 and 20K >>

FR10 would be on my list. 

Visit The Audio Connection in the U-district... John should be able to accommodate you. He carries Monitor Audio - which I find to be very non-fatiguing, although I ended up getting a pair of Chapman T-7s from him a couple years ago.

I can see you have received a great many recommendations for speakers that would fit your needs.  At the risk of adding yet another recommendation let me offer this.  You would like speakers that are non-fatiguing.  Yet I assume that you would still like transparency and detail.  My recommendation would be a pair of Vivid Audio Kaya K25 speakers.  I offer this recommendation because Vivid Audio speakers utilize something they refer to as an "exponential tapered tube absorber" behind each driver.  This technology really does reduce the distortions found in most speakers, that add up to listening fatigue. The K25 speakers from Vivid Audio are roughly in your price range and offer a huge sound, amazing transparency, and powerful bass.  I can't offer any speaker more highly!   

Reads like you’re looking for the perfect speakers. $10k on the used market should get you there. I bought an old pair of VA Strauss speakers for $2k that were so much fun despite lacking resolution expected from new speakers I nearly kept them. Since I have no experience with your amp or room acoustics I can only offer how I got there. Don’t spend more than you can resell for and start buying everything within driving distance you’re interested in. Nothing beats having a few months to demo a pair of speakers. Try to remember us and update this thread on your journey.

I second gdnrbob's recommendation on Vandersteens. The Treo CTs are available at a Dealer in Tacoma called High Note Audio. 

Hello,

I was in AXPONA 2024 and I’ve listening the Borresen. Good but…really no competition with what I’ve heard in the Grandinote’s room.

The speakers showed was over budget for your request (Mach 8XL it’s round 30k) but I’ve heard the Mach 4s and the Mach 2s and they sound pretty amazing with 37 Watt integrated class A amp (always from Grandinote, the Shinai). High efficiency, easy 8 ohm load, unique mechanical crossover…they definitely deserves some attention in my opinion.

I don’t know about a dealer in Seattle but it’s one in Chicago area. 

have a good listening! 😉

I'm still waiting on @helomech to point me to all of these published Legacy measurements which make him steer clear of this brand.  I see a couple very old reviews/measurements but nothing showing 'most Legacy models' as he put it.  Nothing even for any newer models.

Legacy speakers are many things, but fatiguing, they are certainly not.  I know because I've owned many models in my 25+ years ownership.  From the earliest models (Focus, Classic & Silverscreen), to the latest models (Focus SEs, Studio HDs (two pairs) and Silverscreen HD).

Check out Gig Harbor Audio just outside Seattle…

Under 10k, they carry Graham, Audio Note, Devore and Roger’s in the non fatiguing category…

I’m partial to the Graham LS8/1 myself. Harbeths are nice but I feel the Grahams are rather more special

@audiom3 

Google is your friend.

There is only one suite of measurements available online that show a decent performance, and that one is far from comprehensive so hard to say if there are problems outside its on-axis response. The rest of the measured speakers, whether recent or older, produce poor linearity and/or the crossovers fail to adequately suppress driver breakup.

Maybe their most recent designs were engineered by a different person, but there is no good excuse for speakers at those prices producing those sort of results, even two decades ago. It displays a poor regard for objective performance and perhaps hedging success on consumer ignorance.

It’s obvious you have some emotional investment in the brand because that’s where you chose to spend your money. I get it. Perhaps most of us would achieve better systems were we to learn how to decipher measurement graphs before handing over our hard earned cash. If you prefer a speaker that behaves as a tone control, that’s your prerogative. I’ve heard and owned many such designs and for me they always lead to fatigue after the honeymoon period expires, especially when the speaker’s peaks and valleys are the result of underdamped driver break up. But then I still possess the hearing acuity of a young man. I realize most participating on these boards are well past their auditory prime. 

Børresen x2 if your room is on the small side. $8,800 new. 

@helomech please don't cop out and pull the 'Google is your friend' to deflect your exaggerated response.  I asked you to point me to all of the measurements that you are referring to which say all Legacy speakers seemed flawed.

Speakers as tone controls?  Name one speaker that isn't a tone control!  All speakers, even what the beloved Amir uses (Revel Salon 2s), produce orders of magnitudes more distortion than any piece of gear/cable/tweak feeding them.  So yes, they are all tone controls.  Why do you think they all sound so differently?

I'll humor you for a bit and pretend there are tons of measured Legacy speakers with posted plots online (of which there are very, very few and most are the older Studio model).  The only flaw with Legacy is their tendency to be a bit heavy in the bass section.  And that has a lot to do with electronics I've found.  

I have also found that test tones, you know some of what our expert testers believe are everything, are not worth much.  I can flip a switch on the back of my Focus SEs which will attenuate bass response under 80Hz by 2dBs.  And it is bloody obvious when I enable/disable that attenuation when playing music.  But the praised REW software measured two identical charts.  It just couldn't detect the difference whatsoever with it's limited capabilities.  Plus, test tones are way different than the complexities of listening to music...which is what these things are designed to be listened with.

Not on most radars, but you might want to do a little due diligence on Canadian made, PSB Speakers. I own TAD's now, but my first pair of reference speakers were the PSB Stratus Gold's, and they were nothing short of fantastic and extremely pleasing to listen to. I tried to better them with the following speakers and each one failed to bring the total qualities that the Stratus Gold's could deliver,

Vienna Acoustic Liszt

Focal Sopra 2

Wilson Sasha

Tekton Double Impact SE

The Synchrony T800 Towers are there flagship tower speaker, but I have heard both the Imagine line and the older Synchrony models, and all delivered smooth, dynamic sound that never was fatiguing at any listening level or any genre of music I played.

@audiom3 

It’s unhealthy and unbecoming to get so emotionally attached to material goods. 

It’s fine if you like Legacy speakers. However I won’t recommend them to anyone who wants a non fatiguing sound. It’s not like I’m going to alter your opinion, nor will you mine. Don’t let a silly hobby raise your blood pressure so much. 
 

If PBN, this looks like a great deal here

@helomech no, I am simply asking for proof of your earlier post here:

Based on the measurements of most Legacy designs, I would steer clear of them. Plus their custom drivers are not as impressive as they’d like us to believe.

And I am still waiting for all of those plot links. I've found two online, of which one you already admitted was favorable. So, back up our claim or move on. 

Proac and Verity come to mind as having less fatigue while still challenging the limits with detail. Be careful, if you get something to laid back you can get bored easily, at least I have a few times. 

Try to find a pair of JBL L112

what you are describing is the Franko Serblin sound from the earlier Sonus Fabers. Look for a pair either in a floor model or bookshelf model. Most of these are unfatiguing and can be listened to for hours. 

I own 14 pairs of various speaker brands...Usually when you have a non- fatiguing speaker, you loose some sparkle or detail....I own 1 pair that I will never sell....a very non- fatiguing speaker with super sparkle and super detail. I don’t know how they do it but they did it. I have heard $50,000 pr. speakers that don’t even compare to these $11,000 beauties. Looks...sound....dynamics...soundstage...WAF....sense of realism....they have it ALL. Thank you Audio Group Denmark for the Beautiful Borresen X-3’s in white. Good Luck to you !

@deep_333 - Thanks! I also found GR and I am seriously looking into ordering pair of bullies. They indeed look like the ticket. I spoke to Danny as well wrt my search. 

@goose - Yeah, I wanted to drive down since they had Revel Studio 2 for sale, unfortunately, it is now sold. Looks like Stereotypes carry Proac so I may stop by there too.

See the "Sonus Faber Question" thread.  

You’re comparing the GR Bullies to the speakers being mentioned here.....Good Luck,. I think we are all wasting our time here.

@mbmi - is anything wrong with them?

Well I am not sure what in GR caused people to get angry? Engineering appears sound, measurements are good, adjustable sub section is a good thing, speakers go down to 20 almost flat, Danny improves and upgrades speakers from big names and people seem happy with his work.

Big names employ engineers like him. And after all, Tesla also was small shop installing batteries into Lotus frames... Linus started alone and almost dethroned huge names in operating systems with Linux...

• $8400 is Devore Fidelity 0/93

Well I am not sure what in GR caused people to get angry? Engineering appears sound, measurements are good, adjustable sub section is a good thing, speakers go down to 20 almost flat, Danny improves and upgrades speakers from big names and people seem happy with his work.

Big names employ engineers like him. And after all, Tesla also was small shop installing batteries into Lotus frames... Linus started alone and almost dethroned huge names in operating systems with Linux...

@mikhailark ,

a) Several Agon guys are dealers (or pied pipers who work for such dealers) throwing names of things they sell at ya. GR is a manufacturer direct brand. Hence, no dealer middleman around here is making any cash if you bought a GR speaker. You will note similar levels of animosity on display for other manufacturer direct brands as well.

b) GR’s speaker upgrades (of other brands) tends to expose a lot of design flaws, excessive corner cutting, etc in name brands that these dealers tend to carry. When their sales dive downwards a bit thereafter (understandably), they have historically been mad at GR instead of telling their goofball speaker designer to get his act together.

To summarize, GR is a bit of a double whammy disruptor. Hence, the dealers association around here tends to hate him a bit.

Let me tell you the legacy has a well reviewed dsp wavelet 2 that can make your speaker sound like you want it for your room.the only bad thing is price.electronic crossovers are coming of age .they don't strain the amp.enjoy the music and what you have.

Check out Dali speakers!  I thought the 2 tweeters would make them sound bright, but in reality they just have a really smooth transition from the mids to treble.

@deep_333....I'm no dealer and I'm not affiliated with anyone but myself...I love Independent Manufacturers...I buy a lot of gear from them...I support them....I'm just Stating A Fact.....The Bullies are good speakers BUT in LOOKS and SQ...They simply don't belong in the same conversation as some of the EXCEPTIONAL Speakers that are being discussed on this thread......PERIOD.

Harbeth

Joseph Audio Pulsar

Verity Audio - on the used market

Aerial Acoustics and Sonus Faber both make highly listenable speakers in my experience

@mikhailark, ime a "relaxed, non-fatiguing sound" is predicted by a gently downward-sloping first-arrival sound, and an off-axis sound that has a very similar spectral balance. I’m not a big fan of deliberately introducing dippage into the 2-6 kHz region you mentioned, as that can remove some of the upper harmonic richness that draws you into the music. 

Also, horns came up in the thread, and imo prosound horns (like you’d hear at a concert) are not representative of what good home audio horns can do. Most prosound horns deliberately introduce diffraction (via a sharp discontinuity in the horn itself) to improve the uniformity of their coverage pattern, but the downside is the introduction of a harshness that becomes increasingly audible and objectionable as the SPL goes up. Good home audio horns and waveguides do not have this issue, and have the advantage of reducing the spectral discrepancy between the first-arrival sound and the reflection field, which in turn is ime a contributor to long-term fatigue-free listening.

If you do find speakers in your price range that have the characteristics you want, don’t overdo it with the absorptive room treatments. If too much high frequency energy is removed from the reflection field, listening fatigue can actually be increased. This may be somewhat counter-intuitive so let me know if you’d like an explanation.

Can you give us a guesstimate of your room dimensions?

How critical is the appearance of the speakers?

Do you have a ballpark idea of the weight limitations, given that you’ll presumably have to move these by yourself?

Best of luck in your quest!

Duke

@audiokinesis - thanks much! The room is roughly 30x15x8. I don't have many room treatments, just what's left from my former HT setup - 6 12"x4' ASC tube traps and 4 6"x4' traps and maybe 5-6 1" 2'x2' absorption panels. Rug on the floor, thin carpeting.

Yes, I know about soft sound, but I guess I mostly meant "no bumps" around 5K :-) Speaker appearance does not matter much. 

I auditioned Klipsch couple of times, La Scala, corner horns, but never really found them to be rock speakers. Wonderful with voice and piano though.

I ruled out Legacy primarily on size and weight. Shipments gets to $500-600 plus I don't know how to get them down my long and steep driveway (trucks don't go there) and then downstairs with limited space to turn around.

Thanks!

Another vote for the Vandersteen Treo or even the 3A-signature which when paired w a solid amp has amazing low end and the famous 5a midrange and tweeter. I am of course biased as i own Treo CT and 7’s, You have a fantastic Vandersteen dealer in Tacoma. On your drive back North, stop by and hear the 7’s.

Enjoy your search n the music

Jim

@northbeach Any chance you live near Woodmont ?

tomic601

Agreed- the 3A Signature is a steal.

Happy Listening!

The Bullies are good speakers BUT in LOOKS and SQ...They simply don’t belong in the same conversation as some of the EXCEPTIONAL Speakers that are being discussed on this thread......PERIOD.

Did you hear these speakers? I have a feeling you didn’t. Guy in town got these in for himself and i got to hear it well and good...

What are these other exceptional speakers that blew these out of the water? If they are exceptional because of looks, ok, so be it/understandable. But, sonics, i don’t buy that notion at all...W.r.t looks, the bully with the walnut finish or whatever doesn’t look any worse in real life than any big old school jbl, tannoy, klh or even a mofi.

Metal/Hard Rock requires a significant amount of slam (no ph.shifts killing the deal in the higher octaves), significant sound power in the upper bass, lower mids, etc., not an abrasive top end like the klipsches and whatever else. The Bully has perfectly integrated rythmik style of servo subs from the designer (while he still had all his dofs open) covering 20 to 200 hz. It is a rarity or hasn’t been offered before. You won’t find it in those exceptional speakers. Some bigger eminence or a few of those in some of these other "exceptional" speakers don’t hold a candle to what a pair of servo subs can do. Resolution, clarity, etc (perceptually), i would put it up against many speakers that cost a magnitude more these days.

Do you know that there are guys who can easily afford half a million dollar rigs who sit around with that GR NX-Treme 7 foot tall speaker? It is approx a 5k kit (!!) that one builds. For the type of electronics that the OP has, he would be just fine.

Just because that GR dude gave you good things for charity prices didn’t make it a non-competitor (sonically) against the "exceptional" speakers.

@deep_333 Ok.....If you like the Bullies so much...go buy them...I HAVE heard them...and I like them . They are great for Rock. If that's mainly what you listen to , then they are the speaker for you. I can speak for the Borresens because I own them...They are fantastic speakers for ALL types of music. We have different tastes and that fact is respected.