New Class D amplifiers

If you want dialog, be respectful

Look who's talking 😆

And again you did not answer my question. Which tells me that you are talking about a product, about which you have no experience about. No doubt Atmasphere called you out on trolling. I cannot continue to waste my time with you anymore. If possible, try to add value to a discussion, in future. And remember your own statements from past about who cares about your opinion. Good luck.

@milpai

If you want dialog, be respectful.

On what basis do you find GaN lacking?

It’s all in the implementation. Current GaN devices are being touted as some magic improvement when in fact a class d amp is much more about how it is designed and built and less about the fets. Current state of the art class d uses regular fets, not GaN, and the reason is found in Bruno Putzey’s interview wherein he discusses this very topic. Google it.

Also, many of the GaN amps out now are using old class d amp designs which have no post filter feedback, resulting in load dependent frequency response. No modern class d state of the art amps have this fault. Again, use google to see why this is a potential issue. There are a few GaN amps on the market that are well designed- the Orchard Audio products have been well reviewed and have excellent performance. See the Audio Express article. I have no issue with GaN in general, just with amps that are jumping on the bandwagon with poorly performing designs or amps that are more about form than substance. As I said, there is no reason to spend $3000, $4000, $5000, or more on a class d amp to get state of the art performance. When you spend that sort of money, you are paying for cosmetics rather than performance. If that’s what is important to you, have at it.

@kuribo, hope you answer my question directly this time without dodging it.

Customers are also wanting to know that someone stands behind their purchase, and that sadly too is lacking with a lot of inexpensive options.

I haven’t heard or read of any issues with customer service from the many US and European sellers of class d amps using Hypex or Purifi modules. Do you have actual evidence of poor customer service you can share from any of the main stream amp providers?

From the way you consistently single us out, its pretty clear that this has nothing to do with price since there are so many more class D products that are more expensive. For some reason, this seems personal for you for reasons unclear to me.

I didn’t bring up your product here, you entered the discussion after I commented that there is no need to spend $5000 on a class d amp when there are better performing amps available for a fraction of that. I didn’t mention your amp by name. You jumped in and offered a justification for the high price.

And no, I have not singled you out, I made a general comment. I would respond the same way to any product here that has a performance not scaled to the price. I appreciate substance over form.

What you don’t seem to get, despite this being told to you a number of times when you’ve chosen to troll threads like this, is you’ve failed to identify the market. For example, you don’t seem to understand who our competition is.

I have chosen to troll this thread? No, I made a general statement that you decided to challenge. I simply responded.

But, ok, I have failed to identify the market you are attempting to serve. Let’s say then it must be that segment of the market where high prices are a feature, not a bug, and where "value" isn’t a consideration. That’s fine and honest. No need to justify your price here, I get it.

 

I have taken issue with products that, in my opinion, offer less performance at far greater price, than class d amps available from numerous other sources. 

You have yet not responded to my question. Have you done a comparison with a Purifi amp vs Atmosphere GaN. On what basis do you find GaN lacking? I am trying to understand that. Because, I also have to understand which tech I should go with, if at some point I want to decide to go Class D route. So hopefully you will have something for me to look into. 

BTW, that distorted interpretation came probably because you did not come across as trying to learn or ask. You sounded more like confronting. And your past posts have all been negative about GaN. So don't blame me for the messages you are sending. A few posts above another poster also hinted the same. Guess you didn't catch that.

I think there are a lot of people that expect their equipment to last 20, 30 or more years. I have Rogers LS3/5A, Series 20 M22(Pioneer) from the 70's,  Acoustat 3 and Linn Sondek LP12 from the early 80's, Sound Dynamics 300TI from the 2000's. All work great.

Look at people using original Quads, Altec A7 VOT, Western Electric and many other brands. Parents taught me it was cheaper to buy good stuff. Hope my Orchard Audio Starkrimson Stereo Ultra and PSAudio S300 last many years. Just because something better comes out years later doesn't mean, older equipment quit being enjoyable. 

Thanks,

Aldnorab 

Is it really a binary choice? What I am saying is making an amp easy to service and update should be part of it’s design and doesn’t need to be an expensive operation to perform. How hard is it to remove a few screws, unattach a few wires, and swap a module?

@kuribo 

😀 Apparently you've not been on the service side of the industry to see how things are done. I agree, what you say above is true, but sadly often is not the case in practice. Customers are also wanting to know that someone stands behind their purchase, and that sadly too is lacking with a lot of inexpensive options.

Huh? I don’t recall saying an amp doesn’t need a power supply- I simply mentioned that linear supplies in this day and age are rather archaic. I specifically said that a module swap was all most class d amps need to be repaired or upgrades, nothing innovative there.

Nor did I say that you had... I was just pointing out that all amps need a supply- that's not going to change. WRT SMPSs, we found that if you really want to get the most out of any module, the supply should be designed for the application. When you do that, all of a sudden the use of a conventional supply is easier and less expensive.

Again, is it really a binary choice?

No, nor did I say it was. What you don't seem to get, despite this being told to you a number of times when you've chosen to troll threads like this, is you've failed to identify the market. For example, you don't seem to understand who our competition is. From the way you consistently single us out, its pretty clear that this has nothing to do with price since there are so many more class D products that are more expensive.  For some reason, this seems personal for you for reasons unclear to me.

@milpai 

you feel Purifi is the only amplification that manufacturers must stick to and all other Class D are crap.

I have never said such a thing. That is simply your distorted interpretation. There are many well designed, well performing class d amps at great prices. I have taken issue with products that, in my opinion, offer less performance at far greater price, than class d amps available from numerous other sources. I believe I have mentioned Orchard Audio, as well as those sold by  many manufacturers with Hypex or Purifi modules, as amps that provide state of the art performance at very reasonable prices. They represent outstanding value.

If you wish to debate the veracity of my statements, or wish to argue the performance/value of the amps I have mentioned, by all means, feel free. Your previous comments have mostly consisted of personal attacks and off topic speculation, and have been rightly removed. Stick to the topic at hand and leave out the aggressive frustration if you wish to have an adult discussion.

@kuribo 

If you want to provide opinions and want others to read them, then be prepared to read others opinions too. My opinion, based on your attacks on Atmasphere and the GaN1 discussions, is that you are creating noise.  Have you used/auditioned a GaN Vs Purifi amlpifier side-by-side? It is easy to see a person's posts here and in all Class D discussions you do the same thing. Reminds me of a certain guy from down under who constantly used to oppose Class D. In your case, you feel Purifi is the only amplification that manufacturers must stick to and all other Class D are crap.

Your personal attacks reflect your difficulty dealing with opinions that don't align with your own.

I don't have any opinions on Class D. I do go through the forums and discussions to understand more on this type of amplification. I am not leaning toward either Purifi or GaN.

Of course, you can have your own opinion. But strange that you don't remember your own word from 09/22/2022 09:56PM, and keep hammering on the same thing over and over again.

Sadly, there are many small minded people who can't accept that their opinions on the matter are unimportant to a great many.

@milpai

Your baseless speculation regarding my motives, interests, financial situation, and other off topic concerns of yours add nothing to this discussion. You appear to have some personal issues you need to work out. Come back when you have something relevant to add.

In the meantime, recognize that this is a forum for the exchange of ideas and opinions. Opinions differ. We are all free to express our ideas and opinions, as long as they are respectful and on topic. Your personal attacks reflect your difficulty dealing with opinions that don't align with your own. Take a deep breath and either deal with it or find some other, more constructive, outlet for your aggression.

The flip side of what you’re saying is that no care should be taken to make the amp easy to service and update??

Is it really a binary choice? What I am saying is making an amp easy to service and update should be part of it’s design and doesn’t need to be an expensive operation to perform. How hard is it to remove a few screws, unattach a few wires, and swap a module? I don’t see this as a problem with just about any other class d amp I have seen. It’s a feature built in to all decent amps, not something special or unique as far as I can see with your products.

Believe it or not, a certain portion of the market appreciates a quality build that doesn’t look like a denizen only suitable in a mancave.

Again, is it really a binary choice? Attractive design is in the eyes of the beholder but I see plenty of products on the market with nice looking cases for a fraction of what your product costs, and they are well made as well. There are some European class d amps that are very stylish for $2000-$2500 as I recall. Hardly in radio shack project cases. Again, a bit of a red herring.

As for a "forever amp", I would suspect that is a very small, and probably very old, segment of the market. A greater segment of the market is always looking for the next be all end all. Class d has evolved greatly in the last 20 years and no doubt will continue to do so. All one needs to do is to take a scan of the audio forums to see that people are always looking for the next big thing.

Amplifiers might change, but they will always need a power supply. So being able to update the amplifier with an improved module might not make sense to you, but it makes plenty of sense to our customers.

Huh? I don’t recall saying an amp doesn’t need a power supply- I simply mentioned that linear supplies in this day and age are rather archaic. I specifically said that a module swap was all most class d amps need to be repaired or upgrades, nothing innovative there.

Does anyone actually think anyone will be using the same class d amp in 20-30 years? With the way the technology is still evolving, I find that bordering on pure fantasy. I see no reason why having something that is easily repaired (what can be easier than swapping out a module?) or updated should add significantly to the price.

@kuribo The flip side of what you're saying is that no care should be taken to make the amp easy to service and update??

Since you are not a manufacturer you won't be familiar with the idea that a customer might contact you looking for the 'last amplifier I will ever have to buy'. I've experienced that many times and I'm sure other manufacturers have too. Believe it or not, a certain portion of the market appreciates a quality build that doesn't look like a denizen only suitable in a mancave. Also, we have found that the ability to update and reactivate the warranty of any of our older products has the effect of increasing their resale value on the used market so it natural to have that same ethos apply to any newer products we make.

Amplifiers might change, but they will always need a power supply. So being able to update the amplifier with an improved module might not make sense to you, but it makes plenty of sense to our customers. 

@orchardaudio tou·ché 

I am using an LSA Warp 1 from Underwood. Power beyond its 150 WPC, great sound, perfect size. I love it. 

I have a Purifi amp from Buckeye Amps that sounds awesome 

Technics was said to have plans for a line of GaN-based products, of wich the integrated was the first out. Is anybody aware of plans/timeline for any power amp to be available? I wonder about their price-point given the integrated is ~ $2800.

Anyone also told they need a Variac for it to work?
 

@jcarcopo  I don’t quite understand your post.  What happened with your Ultra?  I used the Ultra for 2 weeks and had zero issues. I thought it was a great sounding amp.  It was not the dual mono version, though, but there are at least a couple of dual mono owners on another forum that are very happy with their amps.  Are you saying that you can’t just plug it into the wall and use it?  I’ve also exchanged a few emails with Leo and he was pretty responsive and helpful, so kind of surprised at your comments.

@jcarcopo

I do not understand what you are talking about.

In my area the voltage swing around 122 v.

But I had never noticed any problem with Starkrimson Ultra for 8 days.

I can not tell which of Atma, Audion, Starkrimson will work better with my speaker yet.

But if you are curious about Class D amp, just be in line for tour of Starkrimson.

If there are local dealer of Audion, Atma, I will be happy to do home audition for 2-3 days, but no dealer of them aroung Seattle area.

Thomas

@drhamp ,

 

The Cherrys are gone for obvious reasons 

It's not that obvious...

I see more clear innovation and utility in Atmasphere's amps

For example?

GaN is good check out Wolfspeed.  If you are really interested in ADG, I own Audios deal with Alberto the designer.  Great guy.  He will respond to questions, interest on the ADG web site. 

All I can say is I remember when a certain member of this forum would simply not leave anyone who liked Class D alone, and insisted that Class D would finally get listenable with GaN. 

Hahahahaha.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for technological improvements, but I see more clear innovation and utility in Atmasphere's amps than in doing the same old thing with GaN (apologies to you Technics fans!)

to last decades, to be easily repaired and updated

Does anyone actually think anyone will be using the same class d amp in 20-30 years? With the way the technology is still evolving, I find that bordering on pure fantasy. I see no reason why having something that is easily repaired (what can be easier than swapping out a module?) or updated should add significantly to the price.

Linear power supplies are have for the most part been superseded by smps. With all the class d amps on the market using smps successfully for a decade or two now, there is enough data to show they are in general reliable and that their performance is more than satisfactory. But then, nothing says quality like a big, heavy transformer and flashy expensive case, especially to those who are willing to pay a premium for racing stripes and metallic paint. Vrooom!

The advantage that GaNFETs have is they have very low parasitic inductance. What this means is its easier to build a module that is low noise- and by noise, I mean the kind that radiates from the module over the air and thru the AC power. Its important to keep switching noise and parasitic noise low because it can mess with other gear and affect its performance. As an example, our class D amp makes less noise on the AC line than most tube amps. In terms of noise that it makes in the loudspeaker itself, 90% of that comes from the input buffer circuit, but even then is obviously quieter than tube amplifiers (I use horns at home FWIW).

We've been docked a bit on account of the cost of our class D (which is cheaper than most of our tube products). We built it to be rugged (so it will ship without damage), to last decades, to be easily repaired and updated and to that end it has a fairly expensive chassis and power supply. It would actually be more expensive if we used someone else's module.

@erictal4075

See Bruno Putzey’s comments regarding GaN devices usage here:
 

As for better performing amps, see the new Hypex NCx, nilai500 and the Purifi amp modules.

GaN is the flavor of the day. Most of the amps using it are leaning on the marketing and claims of "new and improved". It’s only an improvement if you are clever enough to implement it in a way that exploits its advantages over traditional silicon and so far few are actually accomplishing that. In fact, many GaN amplifiers out, from Peachtree and LSA for example, use old class d designs without post filter feedback, resulting in load dependent frequency response. Most modern class d amps have post filter feedback and flat frequency response with load. Performance wise, load dependent response is a step backwards.

No rational reason whatsoever, from a performance standpoint, to spend $5000 and more for a class d amp. Of course if someone wants to spend $4000 for a flashy case to get performance that can be beaten by a $1000 Hypex or Purifi amp, it's their money to squander...

@tommylion 

Thanks for the input. Somehow Google didn't return a hit. At $5500 the AGD Tempos are at the same price as the Atmasphere, and on an earlier post @mglik mentioned his experience with the more expensive Audions vs Atmas as being different flavor rather than better/worse. This might suggest that at the same price point the Atmas might be better performers - but this of course is just pure speculation on my part.

As more units hit the market, I'm looking forward to getting more opinions about the GaN amps that take digital in and get a flavor if this elegant solution can be sonically on par with much more expensive implementations.

@erictal4075  have seen Rose but wasn't aware it was Class D.  Thought they were streaming Don't really care for steampunk look.

@kuribo: Then, how do you account for why gallium nitride (GaN) FET transistors are being touted as "all the rage" among afficionados of Class-D amplifiers these days (witness the Stereophile review of the HiFi Rose RA180)?

Could you please cite one or more examples of those class-D amplifiers which you say are the "best performing class d amps on the market," and if possible, describe what kinds of silicon-based devices and/or alternative technologies their manufacturers are using instead. Thank you!

Go Tube pre with a good class D GANFET amp and you’ll love what comes out.

 

If you like tubes. If you prefer to preserve the integrity of the input signal, I would avoid introducing tubes into the signal chain.

This Seoul, South Korea-based company claims that it is using a new variety of solid-state transistors, gallium nitride (GaN) FET transistors in place of the standard silicon ones, which for technical reasons are claimed to greatly improve the sound of traditional Class-D amplifiers, which suffer from time-delay problems associated with using silicon-based transistors.

A solution in search of a problem. The best performing class d amps on the market today do not use GaN fets.

You will get all kind of opinions but bottom line is you have to try it and see if a class d amp works for you. It has for me for many years and I have heard it all at shows, dealers. Etc. Everyone has a spin. Bottom line is class d is as viable as anything and in many cases more affordable. Not to mention more efficient, generally smaller and easy to deal with. Only you can decide. I can only recommend you do.

I “downsized” to a Cambridge Evo 150 (Hypex based) recently based on positive press and glad I did. Read the readily available info and reviews. No BS there. It sounds and works exactly as advertised. Good luck deciding! So many good ways to go with Class D these days. It’s a better time than ever to be an audiophile !

I had a listening session with a friend just yesterday!  Pure bliss!   Couldn’t ask for more.   

@grantgg: I am surprised that neither you, in your quite lengthy list of Class-D amps (including integrated models), nor has anyone else contributing to this forum’s thus-far two pages of discussion on this topic, mentioned the now quite widely advertised HiFi Rose RA180 integrated amplifier. which is admittedly a rather unusual-looking piece of Class-D audio equipment with its gear-driven volume control and other SteamPunk-like features (some liken its appearance to the high-end Swiss manufacturer Nagra’s equipment).

This Seoul, South Korea-based company claims that it is using a new variety of solid-state transistors, gallium nitride (GaN) FET transistors in place of the standard silicon ones, which for technical reasons are claimed to greatly improve the sound of traditional Class-D amplifiers, which suffer from time-delay problems associated with using silicon-based transistors.

Julie Mullins of Stereophile Magazine published a review of the HiFi Rose RA180 integrated amplifier on December 2, 2022 - take a look at her in-depth review here: HiFi Rose RA180 integrated amplifier | Stereophile.com.

I’m surprised no one else posting here has mentioned this particular integrated amp, which is quite feature-laden, including its ability to drive biamplifed speakers.

The sound signature of your system comes mainly from your pre-amp....Go Tube pre with a good class D GANFET amp and you’ll love what comes out.

@erik_squires 48 hours on to sound best for probably the  same reason I leave my pre and CDP on 24/7. They run so cool it takes forever for them to warmup and sound their best. Since I leave them on all the time I turn off and unplug for about 30 seconds once a month. Seems to be beneficial.

Price for the Tempo direct from AGD is $5500. Only a couple of dealers listed for the US. Don’t know if you can get a discount from one of them, or not.

So had I. Anybody has a ballpark price for AGD Tempos?

@soix I had overlooked the AGD Tempos.  look pretty tempting. 

AGD-- “There Is No Substitute”

Aren't many of the newer Jeff Rowland Design Group amplifiers Class D?
I haven't visited their website or products for some time but while very spendy I always had the greatest admiration of how uncompromising his designs were.
And not to mention perhaps the most gorgeous looking products ever made. 

The Atmasphere class d amps currently retails at $5500. 

If the AGD Audions are too pricey you should consider their Tempo stereo amp that probably offers a good bit of the Audions for a lot less, and like the Audions the Tempo is upgradeable as technology advances, which I view as a huge plus.  Best of luck. 

Check these-out for around $5k  really good Atma- sphere

http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/classD.html