@milpai
Your baseless speculation regarding my motives, interests, financial situation, and other off topic concerns of yours add nothing to this discussion. You appear to have some personal issues you need to work out. Come back when you have something relevant to add.
In the meantime, recognize that this is a forum for the exchange of ideas and opinions. Opinions differ. We are all free to express our ideas and opinions, as long as they are respectful and on topic. Your personal attacks reflect your difficulty dealing with opinions that don't align with your own. Take a deep breath and either deal with it or find some other, more constructive, outlet for your aggression.
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This bit isn’t accurate. Have you priced them recently? We have. Using those modules would cause our amp to be more expensive than it is now.
Of course it is accurate. There are Hypex nc500 and Purifi amps, complete, from several sources, that are around $1000. No, they don't have a linear supply (they don't need one), no, they don't have a flashy case, nor do they have something you have to hide. They have decent warranties and companies that stand behind them. They are easy to repair and update. And most have a 2 to 5 year warranty, compared to your 3. And let's not forget, these are 400W, 500W into 8 Ohms, in other words, double the power or more than your 200W into 8 Ohm amps.
It's hardly a close comparison value-wise.
I fail to see why you keep repeating the bit about how it would make your amp "more expensive" to use 3rd party modules. So what? All that tells me is your modules must cost you very little, making your amp even more over priced. There must be at least a dozen or more companies out there who have figured out how to make a 3rd party module class d amp for less than half the price of yours or less. Maybe you need to up your game.
Less expensive than the other class d amps it competes against? So it's the least bad value of the bunch in the over priced status amp luxury market? Congrats.
I have no personal agenda, other than to call out over priced, under performing products when I see them. Audio is full of over priced products that don't measure up to far cheaper alternatives. I have no doubt your amp is well engineered, well built, and performs well. It's just not a good value, in comparison to other class d amps which have flooded the market, in my considered opinion. I am sure it will sell well, though I would not necessarily consider that a reflection on the amp itself, more further proof that audio is full of insecure, status seekers who like to spend extravagant amounts of money on products to assuage their frail egos.
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@ddafoe
Nice; from my perspective, all the more reason to skip over your posts...
Oh yea, what system do you listen to again? Just a hint, if you have mandated yourself to save us 'status seekers' from spending too much on Class D amplification, you might want to tell the rest of us what your system consists of and describe to us how it sounds and performs.
Feel free to read or not read, no one is making you read anything. I can't help it if my posts strike a nerve.
I wouldn't ever even begin to believe that what I prefer in audio components would have any relevance for others. Do your homework and find what works for you- it will prevent you from overpaying for products that under perform for their cost. Unless of course you find some psychic value in paying for certain things that are perhaps not directly related to performance. Best of luck.
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Orchard's class d ganfet amp is the real deal- read the review in audio express. It uses post filter feedback and has a frequency response that is load invariant, meaning it doesn't change character with a speaker's varying impedance. Most well designed class d amps will be load invariant. Not so for many of those using the gan module used in the peachtree and lsa gan amps. Be careful with those as they might sound fine with speakers with a tame impedance equal to the design point but anything that varies wildly and doesn't sit nicely at the design point impedance will change character.
The best performing class d is currently coming from Hypex and Purifi. VTV, Buckeye, March, and others are selling amps at unbelievable pricing using these amp modules.
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This Seoul, South Korea-based company claims that it is using a new variety of solid-state transistors, gallium nitride (GaN) FET transistors in place of the standard silicon ones, which for technical reasons are claimed to greatly improve the sound of traditional Class-D amplifiers, which suffer from time-delay problems associated with using silicon-based transistors.
A solution in search of a problem. The best performing class d amps on the market today do not use GaN fets.
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Go Tube pre with a good class D GANFET amp and you’ll love what comes out.
If you like tubes. If you prefer to preserve the integrity of the input signal, I would avoid introducing tubes into the signal chain.
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@erictal4075
See Bruno Putzey’s comments regarding GaN devices usage here:
As for better performing amps, see the new Hypex NCx, nilai500 and the Purifi amp modules.
GaN is the flavor of the day. Most of the amps using it are leaning on the marketing and claims of "new and improved". It’s only an improvement if you are clever enough to implement it in a way that exploits its advantages over traditional silicon and so far few are actually accomplishing that. In fact, many GaN amplifiers out, from Peachtree and LSA for example, use old class d designs without post filter feedback, resulting in load dependent frequency response. Most modern class d amps have post filter feedback and flat frequency response with load. Performance wise, load dependent response is a step backwards.
No rational reason whatsoever, from a performance standpoint, to spend $5000 and more for a class d amp. Of course if someone wants to spend $4000 for a flashy case to get performance that can be beaten by a $1000 Hypex or Purifi amp, it's their money to squander...
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I see more clear innovation and utility in Atmasphere's amps
For example?
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to last decades, to be easily repaired and updated
Does anyone actually think anyone will be using the same class d amp in 20-30 years? With the way the technology is still evolving, I find that bordering on pure fantasy. I see no reason why having something that is easily repaired (what can be easier than swapping out a module?) or updated should add significantly to the price.
Linear power supplies are have for the most part been superseded by smps. With all the class d amps on the market using smps successfully for a decade or two now, there is enough data to show they are in general reliable and that their performance is more than satisfactory. But then, nothing says quality like a big, heavy transformer and flashy expensive case, especially to those who are willing to pay a premium for racing stripes and metallic paint. Vrooom!
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The flip side of what you’re saying is that no care should be taken to make the amp easy to service and update??
Is it really a binary choice? What I am saying is making an amp easy to service and update should be part of it’s design and doesn’t need to be an expensive operation to perform. How hard is it to remove a few screws, unattach a few wires, and swap a module? I don’t see this as a problem with just about any other class d amp I have seen. It’s a feature built in to all decent amps, not something special or unique as far as I can see with your products.
Believe it or not, a certain portion of the market appreciates a quality build that doesn’t look like a denizen only suitable in a mancave.
Again, is it really a binary choice? Attractive design is in the eyes of the beholder but I see plenty of products on the market with nice looking cases for a fraction of what your product costs, and they are well made as well. There are some European class d amps that are very stylish for $2000-$2500 as I recall. Hardly in radio shack project cases. Again, a bit of a red herring.
As for a "forever amp", I would suspect that is a very small, and probably very old, segment of the market. A greater segment of the market is always looking for the next be all end all. Class d has evolved greatly in the last 20 years and no doubt will continue to do so. All one needs to do is to take a scan of the audio forums to see that people are always looking for the next big thing.
Amplifiers might change, but they will always need a power supply. So being able to update the amplifier with an improved module might not make sense to you, but it makes plenty of sense to our customers.
Huh? I don’t recall saying an amp doesn’t need a power supply- I simply mentioned that linear supplies in this day and age are rather archaic. I specifically said that a module swap was all most class d amps need to be repaired or upgrades, nothing innovative there.
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@milpai
you feel Purifi is the only amplification that manufacturers must stick to and all other Class D are crap.
I have never said such a thing. That is simply your distorted interpretation. There are many well designed, well performing class d amps at great prices. I have taken issue with products that, in my opinion, offer less performance at far greater price, than class d amps available from numerous other sources. I believe I have mentioned Orchard Audio, as well as those sold by many manufacturers with Hypex or Purifi modules, as amps that provide state of the art performance at very reasonable prices. They represent outstanding value.
If you wish to debate the veracity of my statements, or wish to argue the performance/value of the amps I have mentioned, by all means, feel free. Your previous comments have mostly consisted of personal attacks and off topic speculation, and have been rightly removed. Stick to the topic at hand and leave out the aggressive frustration if you wish to have an adult discussion.
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Customers are also wanting to know that someone stands behind their purchase, and that sadly too is lacking with a lot of inexpensive options.
I haven’t heard or read of any issues with customer service from the many US and European sellers of class d amps using Hypex or Purifi modules. Do you have actual evidence of poor customer service you can share from any of the main stream amp providers?
From the way you consistently single us out, its pretty clear that this has nothing to do with price since there are so many more class D products that are more expensive. For some reason, this seems personal for you for reasons unclear to me.
I didn’t bring up your product here, you entered the discussion after I commented that there is no need to spend $5000 on a class d amp when there are better performing amps available for a fraction of that. I didn’t mention your amp by name. You jumped in and offered a justification for the high price.
And no, I have not singled you out, I made a general comment. I would respond the same way to any product here that has a performance not scaled to the price. I appreciate substance over form.
What you don’t seem to get, despite this being told to you a number of times when you’ve chosen to troll threads like this, is you’ve failed to identify the market. For example, you don’t seem to understand who our competition is.
I have chosen to troll this thread? No, I made a general statement that you decided to challenge. I simply responded.
But, ok, I have failed to identify the market you are attempting to serve. Let’s say then it must be that segment of the market where high prices are a feature, not a bug, and where "value" isn’t a consideration. That’s fine and honest. No need to justify your price here, I get it.
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@milpai
If you want dialog, be respectful.
On what basis do you find GaN lacking?
It’s all in the implementation. Current GaN devices are being touted as some magic improvement when in fact a class d amp is much more about how it is designed and built and less about the fets. Current state of the art class d uses regular fets, not GaN, and the reason is found in Bruno Putzey’s interview wherein he discusses this very topic. Google it.
Also, many of the GaN amps out now are using old class d amp designs which have no post filter feedback, resulting in load dependent frequency response. No modern class d state of the art amps have this fault. Again, use google to see why this is a potential issue. There are a few GaN amps on the market that are well designed- the Orchard Audio products have been well reviewed and have excellent performance. See the Audio Express article. I have no issue with GaN in general, just with amps that are jumping on the bandwagon with poorly performing designs or amps that are more about form than substance. As I said, there is no reason to spend $3000, $4000, $5000, or more on a class d amp to get state of the art performance. When you spend that sort of money, you are paying for cosmetics rather than performance. If that’s what is important to you, have at it.
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@ddafoe
Of course they are my opinions, but unlike many others, they are based on facts. If you want to argue the facts, have at it. Show me a GaN amp other than Orchard’s product that performs as well as Hypex or Purifi. Show me a $5000 class d amp that performs 5X better than the $1000 class d amps using Hypex or Purifi modules.
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@milpai
You asked on what basis I find GaN amps lacking and said you were looking to learn. I gave you a thoughtful reply with leads on where to find further info to educate yourself. In reply, you insult. I expected as much. Information, like the GaN fet, is only as good as the implementation. If you were genuinely curious, you would have taken the time to actually do some homework and would have indeed found value in the reply. You got out what you put in and look intellectually lazy as well as dishonest in your intentions.
Whether or not I have heard the Atmos amp or any other has no bearing on what you or others may subjectively think about it after listening to it. I gave you cold, hard facts, when it seems what you want is for someone to tell you what you want to hear. Listen for yourself, no one else can tell you what you will prefer. If you understood the actual uselessness of other people’s subjective opinions you wouldn't be hitching your wagon to other’s subjective opinions and would see the ignorance of your question to me.
My issues are with poorly designed and implemented GaN amps, or expensive amps built to market to people who apparently care more about style than substance. As I said, these are my opinions based on actual objective data.
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@ddafoe
Throwing it back at you, please show me why the $5000 AtmaSphere amplifier does not ’perform as well’ as the Orchard or the Hypex, or the Purifi.
The designer has said he can’t compete with the performance of the Putzey’s designed amps, so there is that.
Subjective opinions can not be debated so there is no point in discussing them. There is no right or wrong, nothing provable, nothing factual. No need to discuss what I have heard, what you have heard.
What we can discuss is objective performance. That can be quantified, measured, compared. It's what amp designers use to design their product. Most, but not all, endeavor to create a device with as little added distortion as possible. Please compare the distortion added to the signal by the Hypex and Purifi amps and compare to other class d amps. Tell me which are truest to the input signal. This is the only way to objectively judge and compare amps.
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No, you didn’t mention anything directly about Hypex, Purifi, etc. You made a general statement about cheaper alternatives. I simply seeking to clarify the record by asking for any evidence of issues with Hypex or Purifi, which are much cheaper alternative. You haven’t provided any so we can assume you weren’t including them in your general statement. Thanks for clarifying.
And it is easy to scroll through this thread and see that no, I never mentioned your product, nor anyone else’s, by name, when I made my comment about "no need to spend $5000 on a class d amp"...you jumped in and tried to justify your price. Anyone who can read can see this for themselves below. Someone needs to up their game, but it isn’t me.
So you used the same pricing model you have used for 40 years. Perhaps you have been overcharging then for 40 years.
What is Techniques up to? Perhaps catering to a market that isn’t value conscious? Perhaps they are looking to recoup their r&d costs. Or maybe they are pricing according the PT Barnum theory. Speaking of straw men, this is a nice example- just because other competitors are charging way above what a closely performing, or more likely, better performing amp costs, doesn’t mean they are any sort of prize. Having lived in Japan for 14 years I know a little about Japanese business and marketing and the status that is created by putting crazy high prices on prestige products. The Techniques amp is also a bad value when judged on performance.
Again, you claim you are selling to a "different market". So what? Bottom line, there are products on the market with better performance at 1/5 the cost. For those looking for a high performance class d amp, they do not need to spend $5000 to achieve state of the art performance, period. If they want to spend $1000 or so, they can get state of the art performance, good customer service and repairs/updates, and a product that by all appearances will last at least a decade and probably more. They won’t get a heavy linear power supply (so what?) and a fancy case (for many, another so what?). They won’t have sunk a lot of money into an amp tech that they may want to upgrade if something better appears in 5 years, and if they wish to keep the amp for 30 years, they can buy 3 of them, put two in storage in case the others fail after 10 years, and still have $2000 left over to spend on whatever. Oh, and then there are those who might want to buy 3 for an active system and spend the leftover $2000 on dsp or a multichannel dac for an active, truly state of the art system. Wonder if they would miss those heavy amps and flashy cases?
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@niodari
In fact, i own LSA GaN Voyager for already some months and keep it on a shelf unplugged. I am disappointed not only with its sonic properties but also with a terrible service i experienced.
It has a load variant frequency response as I have said due to its lack of post filter feedback. This problem was solved in class d 20 some years ago. It may be your speakers present a load variance that is causing an issue with the frequency response that you find unpleasant. This is an example of an amp that jumped on the GaN bandwagon and suffers from an issue modern class d designs do not suffer from.
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@ddafoe
Then why do you continue to post your recommendations on Class D amplification and ridicule those who choose to spend more than your mandated $1000? You are contradicting yourself.
Do I really need to explain the difference between subjective preferences and objective performance again?
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