"Here we go again. I just saw 50 to 60 posts from people who have not tried one of the switches in question. This just confuses people who come here to find out results."
Seems to me this thread has stayed pretty much on task as it is about Network Switches. Three were suggested by the OP and he asked us to
"
Feel free to add others."
Which of the three have you tried and how did it (they) work out for you?
Hey @mitch2 good luck getting an affirmative answer from this guy. They never try anything. They just know. And if you do get an answer, it will be something like “I don’t have to go go North Pole to know it’s cold out there”. Or something like that. A stupid sophism
I just came across this thread, interesting, but sort of old, perhaps it can revived. I've been thinking about adding network switch for some time now, already have post server taken care of with FMCs and usb decrapifiers. Up to now, I've fed server and NAS with router powered by lps. Finally decide to pull the plug on purchasing audiophile network switch yesterday. During my research over the past few weeks I narrowed down choices to English8, N&E Silent Switch (aka as Ediscreation) standard and deluxe versions, Uptone Etheregen and RenoLabs Ultimate. I took a chance and purchased RenoLabs Ultimate, the risk because I've not found a single review. Should get 7-10 days. Also, I found a review by thyname of the N&E switch over at whatsbest forum, assume this is the very same thyname in this thread. David_Ten, may be worthwhile to pm him for review either on this thread or start a new one. He found it superior to Uptone etheregen.
Hi @sns --- yes, that was me on that Whatsbest Forum thread. I did not start that thread, but it was enough to draw my interest on Ediscreation switch. I am still happy with my units (I have two), and my search on that space is now over (for now).
Many (higher priced) manufacturers are now joining the ethernet switch category, including Innuos, and most recently, Synergistic Research. It shows the popularity among audio enthusiasts on such products. They do work IMO
I am old and lost when it comes to this switch stuff. Ted, at SR, spoke to me about how incredible it is in his reference system going bonkers over it.
I would read the FAQ's and or setup on Small Green Computer or Lumin Web site (or any of the well respected music server / streamer companies) I think you will arrive at the right conclusion.
@glory An [unmanaged] switch between your (main) router and networked components is plug and play. A better / higher quality switch will result in better sound quality. Upsides can (also) be achieved from powering a switch with a linear power supply, including the mass market ones.
Think of it as a serious isolation step between a typically noisy router and your Antipodes. If configured, you can also separate your noisy/dirty components from your audio focused ones.
Given your comfort level with $$$ fuses, I’m surprised by this: : )
Does one have to pay that much $$$ for this gizmo?
Copying this for those unfamiliar with unmanaged vs. managed switches:
I recently tried a Silent Angel Bonn 8 network switch with LPS (£600).
It has made a much more significant SQ improvement than i was expecting. Similar to the level obtained from an upgrade in a high quality power conditioner or regenerator.
After several hours of listening i switched on the projector (fed by a sky box linked to the Bonn N8) and the images were much sharper and blacks so much darker; it's a cliche i know, but i really did have to reset the the picture controls.
There is a review of this switch on "audio science review" where the test results conclude that there can be no improvement. This is followed by several pages of presumably well qualified people laughing at audiophiles who fall for these scams.
Their certainty is impressive.
it's an interesting irony that we all share a interest in the technical side of this hobby with the aim of getting better SQ and yet many highly qualified people will have poorer sounding systems because they simply will not try a product (at no financial risk).
a scientifically minded person should surely see the very large data set of people who independently report positive reviews and wonder, how likely is it that they are all lies and expectation bias?
Perhaps it is a fear that it might contradict what they (don't!) know?
Speaking of network switches, @david_ten is spot on!
“Think of it as a serious isolation step between a typically noisy router and your Antipodes. If configured, you can also separate your noisy/dirty components from your audio focused ones.”
I brought in M12 Switch recently, while I am still evaluating this ‘revolutionary’ product, my initial impressions are nothing short of amazement. It has elevated my streaming system to whole another level. Nope, I am not exaggerating :-)
Listened to my recently purchased RenoLabs Ultimate switch first time. Right off heard increase in resolution, lower noise floor thing. Initially, most noticeable were sound stage or, imaging improvements, a little more 'pop' or separation of individual performers, a more spacious sound stage in macro sense. Detail improvements per se, therefore low level information always heard as sound stage and imaging improvements the past few years. The usual low level information improvements such as hearing some instrument or voice have long been exposed in my system. And now I come to the not so sure part of initial listening session. For first few hours darker sounding system than previous, a bit less transparency, closed in sound. Over the next couple hours this improved somewhat, still a bit more colored, or less natural than pre switch.
At this point I'm going to put this down to settling and/or burn in issues, what I hear with every component burn in. Different configuration of previous equipment and the added new Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable, along with switch require settling and/or burn in. Based on improvement I heard over first listening session I'm expecting these minor issues will resolve. I also recall and have listening notes that confirm prior network equipment upgrades had burn in period. Prior to first network and USB upgrades I didn't expect burn in issues, this only reinforces the error of that mistaken assumption.
I also heard this improvement despite a previously nearly fully optimized ethernet chain. Previous: Router (LPS)>server and NAS (both LPS)>optical conversion-two TPLink FMC (both LPS)>Sotm SMS200neo (Uptone JS2 LPS)>Uptone USB Regen(LPS)>dac. Post: Router>RenoLabs switch>server and NAS, everything after same as before.
The Telegärtner M12 Switch Gold sounds very interesting, but goodness it costs more than my switch, server, LPS, router, and cables combined! Look forward to the day this level of sonic improvement is more affordable with switches/filters.
I have the EE Switch 8 combined with Network Acoustics ENO cabling and Ethernet filter. The combo is amazing, but not sure if it is up to the M12 in performance. Not done an A/B. I bet it is not, but perhaps a great option for far less money. @lalitk,
Prices are in Hong Kong dollars, and I bought direct. The Standard version is less than $800 (US dollars), and the Extreme version is about $1,400 (US)
We shared the same approach to ‘cleanse’ our home network by employing EE Switch 8 combined with Network Acoustics ENO cabling and Ethernet filter. And they have worked beautifully and effectively.
So what prompted the change? I have been exploring streamer / DAC’s that have adopted to latest i2S protocol (i.e. components supporting uncompressed audio over IP Network) thus eliminating the need to rely on aging USB/AES/SPDIF protocols. You may read about my new digital components in virtual system page,
Back to the topic on hand, a high performance switch like M12 made perfect sense since my new DAC/streamer relies heavily on the robustness of home network. The difference in performance between the two setups (EE8 w/ENO & M12) were far from marginal to fully justify the 3x cost of M12. With M12, everything is more spacious, more energy and openness; you’re certainly more engaged and emotionally connected to your music. The build quality of M12 is first rate (and exquisite) not to mention very robust M12 X-Coded connectors.
My evaluation is not complete as I’m bringing in JCAT LPS along with Signature LAN Cable that will go between M12 switch and Merging +player. I am hoping to retain the stock Telegärtner M12 X-coded/MFP8 IE GOLD LAN Cable between the router and M12 switch, which is quite excellent unless I can justify the 2nd JCAT Signature LAN cable :-)
I don't know if this has been posted yet but there's a person over in Germany who has this video on YouTube on how to get the most out of a network switch device and for most DIYers, it looks easy enough to do.
Hello everyone. My Uptone EtherREGEN arrived last week and I must say it has made a very good impression on me. It's still breaking in but I'm already considering my next move to clean up the digital stream.
I am curious how many are using an LPS on the modem and router (I have both) and what the result has been. I have heard this can be a significant improvement but I'm not sure how significant those gains would be with the EtherREGEN downstream. Does anyone have experience to share with the modem and router on an LPS and an EtherREGEN downstream.
Uptone says I need to get the JS-2 LPS because the UltraCap LPS-1.2 doesn't have enough amperage. Only in this hobby do you spend a grand on $100 of cheap electronics :(
I highly recommend Supra CAT-8 LAN cable over WireWorld. This is a great sounding cable for the money. Send a message to the seller for 0.5m and he will be happy to oblige.
I have, in the past, used Sonore and Uptone products in my chain.
Though I am using a linear power supply on my Modem and Router, I cannot answer your question definitively "with the EtherRegen downstream" since I do not have one in my chain.
Linear power supply reviews and owner feedback are consistent in pointing out a lower noise floor, greater transparency, and overall improvements in sound quality across most descriptors.
Given the length of your generic LAN cable run (50 feet) I believe you will achieve better results by doing the following:
Step 1. Forgo the LAN cable run by adding a Mesh Router Satellite close to your audio system / EtherRegen.
This will isolate and separate your primary Modem and Router from the audio section of your system.
Step 2. Use a linear power supply on the Satellite.
Step 3. Add a short run of a high quality LAN cable from the Satellite to your Ether Regen.
There are many decent, low cost linear power supplies. I use the HDPlex for my less critical accessories. Something along the lines of HDPlex, etc. will deliver results. However, in your application I suggest going with a higher quality linear power supply.
I use the Keces P8 Ultra Low Noise linear power supply. There are other options, but most come in at a higher cost. If you want to spend less, then consider the Keces P3.
The above approach will deliver a significant return on your investment and effort. There are a couple of additional steps you can take that are additive to the above. Those can be saved for later.
I am curious how many are using an LPS on the modem and router (I have both) and what the result has been. I have heard this can be a significant improvement but I'm not sure how significant those gains would be with the EtherREGEN downstream.
Brick Wall power conditioner > iFi 12v power supply (2) > modem and router > 50 ft. Ethernet cable (generic) > EtherREGEN with LPS-1.2 > PS Audio DSD Jr. bridge > LTA MZ2 > Halo A21 > Tekton DI
@david_ten Thanks, this is great info. I never considered wifi because the DS Jr only accepts a hard wire connection but I'm sure the satellites have an ethernet jack. I actually researched mesh wifi a couple months ago to get better reception throughout the house and decided to hold off. I guess I need to revisit that decision.
@treebeard1 Yes, the satellite will have at least one, usually more LAN ports.
If you go with this approach, consider brands/models which have larger "open" space access for the LAN and DC power cables. It will allow for easier cable connections, especially if the cables are thicker / stiffer. It will also allow for the satellite unit to stand properly "upright."
I have had an Orbi mesh system for a couple of years now. Although I run fiber from my main router to my main system and that works great, I operate my garage/outdoor system through one of the mesh satellites as described by @david_ten below with a 0.5M CAT8 cable from the Orbi satellite to a Metrum Baby Ambre then Jade DAC and it too sounds great with no issues (drop outs, etc.) whatsoever. I use the stock power supply on the satellite with no perceptible detriment to SQ but I do use LPSs on both fiber converters associated with my main system.
Recently added network switch, has imposed sound signature. I received expected benefit of lower noise floor, more detail, resolution, transparency, didn't expect so much or any impact on the quality of sound. Just a bit less natural sound than prior, like a layer of electronic scrim added, quieter, yes, but like a haze added. I've improved other network equipment and cables in past, don't recall this much impact on sound signature. So, in your experience, have network upgrades affected sound signature? I'm burning in network switch, new ethernet cable as we speak, eliminate this as culprit. I'm also going to try various power cables.
The only times I've had network gear affect sound quality seemed to be related more to their power adapters and whether they are in or out of the cleaned power zone.
I've heard that prior to using LPS and power conditioner on every single network piece. I'm also thinking perhaps the signature thing was less noticeable in past since streaming solution not as mature, advanced as now. Past upgrades improved noise floor, resolution to such an extent, all my attention went there, not so much on sound signature. This haze or less natural sound is a subtle thing, but still exposed on present extremely high resolution system. I know theoretically, network equipment shouldn't change sound signature, yet most of us have experienced theoreticals being broken. I do know a lot of these audiophile switches use generic switch circuit boards with upgrades parts and LPS added. Perhaps I'm hearing generic board liabilities. In any case, it will take a few more listening sessions to get to the bottom of this. I already know about placebo effect, expectation bias, and how to adjust, this not the deal here.
If I continue to hear deficiency of new switch, along with it's improvements, the question becomes. What would a much more expensive switch like the Innuos bring to the party? Is lower noise floor sole improvement, or are you paying that extra money for something more, meaning more natural sound vs. lower cost switches. Assuming Innuos is superior in any parameter?
Well, at present I have switch playing 24/7, and I'll try one of my power cords that fit sound signature I'm looking for. Burn in and pc issues will be moot at that point. $3500 for Innuos a little steep for me. Uptone switch would be next try, the only reason didn't purchase is only one highest quality output, I need two, one for server, other for NAS.
RenoLabs switch has amazing build quality, would fit $3k plus category. It may also be the switch is exposing something else in streaming setup. I'm presently using SOTM SMS200Neo in series with Uptone USB regen, perhaps using two usb decrapifiers is excessive, may try removing Uptone. Both on LPS, Sotm on Uptone JS2
“RenoLabs switch has amazing build quality, would fit $3k plus category. ”
The only way to know how Reno switch ($650) stacks against Innuos switch is by trying it in your system. Otherwise, it just a pure speculation on your part. Going from Reno to Uptone may yield ‘lateral’ improvements or different flavor, if any. I say this from my experience by trying switches, filters priced under $1K in my system.
I am way passed some of these short term bandaid solutions :-)
Lalitk, I've researched your Telegartner switch in past, certainly impressed with technology. I'd expect lowered noise floor, so improved detail, transparency, etc. Based on reviews the only sound signature from the unit is 'natural'. I've seen many reviews of other switches also claiming more natural sound from systems. And so, in your experience, did the Telegartner deliver more natural sound quality than lesser switches you tried? And is that due to a more natural sound signature of switch itself, or simply because it exposed more of the natural sound signature of your entire system? In other words, are there variable levels of naturalness delivered by switches? An affirmative answer means there is in fact a sound signature or flavor delivered by switches.
“I’ve seen many reviews of other switches also claiming more natural sound from systems.”
@sns,
Of course, they all claim to do so! But to what degree, the only way to find out is by trying them out in your system. The noise is the #1 issue in any audio signal path. You lower or eliminate the noise and music starts to sound natural as possible. As I said before, the Telegartner M12 switch does a exemplary job of removing digital grunge and it does so transparently but at much larger scale than my previous reference, i.e. English Electric 8 switch and ENO Filter.
In this hobby, most of us are striving to attain the next ‘level’ performance; so implementing a switch like M12 was the next logical step in my holistic approach of how my system going to sound when i cue up my music. In my system, the M12 switch was the game changer and a very worthy stable mate for my digital front end.
Good luck with your journey, hope you find your ultimate Switch soon :-)
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