@bulkdevicesuk
Hello, I see you are new here so - welcome! I don’t have a good answer to your question, but for best results I recommend starting your own new thread with the title, "server hard drive needed" or similar. Post it under digital. There are also other sites with computer/digital audio specific discussions you might try such as Audiophile Style (under Music Servers) or Audio Asylum (under Digital or PC Audio). Good luck.
Speaking of no absolutes, I'm done for time being with adding network switch. In the end, Renolab switch result in diminished sound quality. Without switch, images and sound stage wonderfully dimensional and life sized. With added switch, while there was a minute increase in lowest level information, image outlines were drawn too precisely, still three dimensional but with cookie cutter edges, not lifelike at all. My preference and experience is that images naturally blend into one another to some extent in both artificial and natural sound stages. With the switch it was if each performer in individual sound booth, way too precise and unnatural.
At this point I'm making assumption the added clocking of switch was creating anomalies. My network is already optimized post server and NAS, sufficient clocking for my sound preferences. And so back to absolutes; perhaps adding switches is not beneficial in all network setups. At the same time, I'm not making argument another switch could be beneficial for me.
Its been my experience network improvements up to now have been in region of lowering noise floor of system, some added lower level information in the sense of more clearly heard instrumentation or voices mixed at relatively lowest levels. But mostly I've heard sound stage and image improvements, another byproduct of lower noise floor. At this point I'm content with sound stage and imaging from my system, adding that last minutia of lowest level info isn't worth the cost.
@david_ten Cable modem supplied by cable company placement near audio system> Audioquest Vodka ethernet> Netgear Nighthawk router powered by 12v 4a lps plugged into BPT 3.5 sig (modded) via DIY Helix with three strands VH Audio Airlock hot cable power cord>Synology NAS powered by over spec lps and Shunyata Python VX into BPT, and extremely modded Mac Mini (Intel I7 best processor available at time, Uptone MMK, JS-2 L{S, only most necessary services operational, went into DOS commands to shut down others many don't shut down) JS2 powered by VH Audio Airsine PC>(2) TPLInk MC200CM both over spec lps with Shunyata Cobra PC powered by lithium ion battery pack>SOTM SMS 200 neo powered by Uptone JS2>Audioquest Diamond USB>Uptone USB regen over spec lps,VH Audio Airsine pc>Musetec 005 DAC (usb Amenero w/OXCO clock) DIY Helix PC into BPT. I should mention all ethernet Audioquest Vodka, everything with exception of TPLinks going into BPT on dedicated AC, have two other dedicated AC lines for analog and amps. My house ground has also been taken care of, new grounding rod with equal length grounds cables so no ground loops. I also have separate ground cables coming from each of my three dedicated AC lines.
I"m being extremely thorough here in attempt to illustrate the importance I've placed on every single aspect of network. Paying attention to DC and AC power sources is of utmost importance IME.
First post here… just as well be on such a delicate topic. A little background as I’m new here. Electric engineer, did some analog electronics design. 35 years of designing wired and wireless equipment. I guarantee that you have used technology I invented and some hardware and software I contributed building. Unless one stays away from mobile phones and wifi :-) Audiophile for 40 years. Enough of this, only proves I’m old.
There is a fundamental difference between IP networking and the other digital technologies that we are used to in audio…. DACs are very delicate machines in the digital section. There’s all sorts of opportunities for noise, jitter, skews and multiple issues potentially affecting sound quality. Folks get that complexity here. USB and SPDIF are simple “link layer protocols”. This means that those protocols allow for 2 devices to exchange data over a single physical link. The same applies to Bluetooth, AirPlay, in the wireless domain. USB and SPDIF are simple, basic protocols. They do not support FEC, or forward error correction. This opens the door to all sorts of clock, skew, jitter and noise problems. The unfortunate truth is that because of the protocols limitations it’s more dicey to move a bunch of bits from from the streamer to the DAC over those interfaces than it is to move the same bits from tidal/servers to the streamer, more in a second. Note that I’m not talking about noise propagating inside the components from those interfaces. This issue is orthogonal to messing up the bits in transit, it’s a design issue and well made digital interfaces can avoid noise propagation in a component with usual precautions, and costs associated. That would apply to any digital interfaces. Tl;dr - USB and SPDIF are fragile designs optimized for cheapness, fancy cables can make a difference there and discussions will continue to rage on.
Now IP networking is something completely different. There’s 2 pieces to it. A) a link layer protocol, Ethernet, that moves data between 2 devices B) a network protocol, IP, that carry data between multiple switches/routers, possibly over the internet. Ethernet is the protocol that home switches deal with. Ethernet is a fairly simple protocol, but it has FEC and more features not relevant to this discussion. Ethernet layer will correct corrupted packets if possible or drop it if is not. Drops you may ask? Does not matter. The data that travels over it is layered like this:
music data | Http, https, some other applications | tcp | IP | Ethernet
IP protocol has its own error correction too, end to end between let’s say a local or internet music sever (Qobuz, tidal) and a streamer. And TCP sitting on top of that will handle retransmissions as needed. In this whole chain, there are zero opportunities for messing anything up. Either the data gets through with 100% integrity or it doesn’t. Please note that there is no timing/noise/jitter-what-have-you issues that apply here. This becomes a problem again once the music data needs to be transformed in USB or SPDIF or fed to a DAC. Complete non issue in the IP network.
An ‘audiophile’ switch cannot do anything useful on the data integrity front that I can understand that a regular switch cannot do. The only thing I can see it can do is possibly keeping the noise low on those Ethernet links. Maybe. They have to use the same Ethernet transceiver chips as everyone else, it’s limited to the quality of board and components around and isolation.
BUT. The target audience for this is not the fellow that streams from a Pi. The only place in the system I can see an ‘audio switch’ maybe making a difference is on the box where the streamer runs and feeds the DAC or convert to USB or SPDIF. I have 3 ways to do that on my system, a Naim ND5 XS2, a Mac mini and the network card on the Bricasti . Unexpectedly, they sound different, I’d even say very different. More unexpectedly, the Naim sounds quite a bit better than the network interface on the M3 (all with Roon). (to me anyways, better clarity, definition). I really think a good quality streamer should do a great job at isolating the noise from the digital interfaces, including Ethernet, and it’s hard for me to see how a fancy switch would make a difference.
So, Maybe, I’m open minded. But until someone credible reports that it makes a major difference in a nice system, I’m not ditching my ubiquity POE switch (Nope, that’s not who I work for). I’m in good Company, Paul McGowan sells cables that cost more than my MA PL200ii speakers and a major ‘usb cables make a difference’ guy, but he refuses to go down the ‘Ethernet cables make a difference’ path. I’m at the same place, I run decent but not outrageous interconnect and MIT speaker cables, Gaia feet under my speakers and a couple of components which many see as snake oil potential, I’m just not there with ‘audio switches’…
@sns Thanks so much for sharing your system chain.
A major +1 to the following:
I"m being extremely thorough here in attempt to illustrate the importance I've placed on every single aspect of network. Paying attention to DC and AC power sources is of utmost importance IME.
I would add the importance of grounding as well...which you also addressed in your post.
@lmcmalo Thank you very much for contributing to this thread and topic. Your experience and perspective are helpful and valuable. I'm glad you posted!
I have (also) bypassed an 'audiophile' stand alone switch for my system. However, I have heard the results and contributions made by some of the 'audiophile' switches and fully understand the choice made and it's utility for those who go down that path.
Like @sns I've invested in the power side, custom DC cabling, isolation (active and passive), grounding, etc.
My personal experience with LAN cables is that they make a significant difference.
Your use of the word "delicate" is so apropos. : )
Thanks @david. The audio community has been fed many half truth for a long time about various digital issues. A mix of skepticism and open mindness (i just made that up) is ‘a propos’.
Your experience about Ethernet cables is most interesting. I can come up with multiple reasons why many things would change something: power cables, power regeneration or cleaners, any inter connect, any component, any settings, new Room couch, how warm devices are, how hot/cold the room is, and list goes on.
unfortunately I can’t make a theory about Ethernet cables unless they are not meeting CAT specs. I built piles of switches and routers that sold for billions (not a typo). I understand every details of how the sw, chips, hardware work together. Not bragging, it’s my full time day job.
Now I’m not and ASR kind of dude. Does not mean that because I don’t know or I can’t measure that it’s not happening. I’m very curious about this issue now. I would really love to have a chit chat with the fellows that design those audiophile switches, their spec sheets are not telling me much.
CAT 5/6 cables are a bit delicate though. Some fancy enterprise switches have detection for bad cables. Bad cables happen and do cause problems. Mostly it happens at the connectors. More to learn there is.
Ethernet cables matter and they impact sound quality in important ways. Only way to know is to try for yourself. Speculation and thinking won’t get you there. You must try. If your system is resolving enough and you care about tone, realism and other sonic characteristics, then you may appreciate the sonic impact. I use Network Acoustics ENO ethernet cables and their ENO filter. Put both in your system and just listen. The improvement related to noise reduction was just fantastic for me.
Yes, switches also matter. I use the English Electric switch. Not as much improvement as the ENO products, but still important to me. I have an Innuos Zenith 3 server and it certainly responded to these network additions. The difference was not small for me. The end result removed some glare and smearing and helped my digital front end sound far more at ease and natural. Realism improved greatly as more and more noise was removed.
Like all things audio one has to try these in their own system and decide for themselves. No broad-brush statements saying they do nothing or everything are ever accurate in this hobby. To many complexities and variables are at play that we simply don’t fully understand.
I think it’s important we step back and realize just how little the entire human race actually knows about the topic of digital audio and how it relates to individual hearing. In the decades to come we will understand more, but not right now. In addition, one person can only ever posses a very small percentage of the total knowledge currently available on a given subject (under 5% certainly). So the only way to really know for yourself is to try. To complicate things even further some of the products we try will work well, some not so well, and others not at all. Ha!
Perhaps it’s time to gain valuable empirical evidence with your mind wide open. I’m afraid there are no shortcuts to this experience based approach to digital audio.
Let me add this final comment. For me, me only, I find myself so engaged to my music that at times it brings me to tears connecting with both the emotions and intentions of the artists. This kind of realism and emotional impact only came about as I improved my digital front end. Everything matters, as they say, when it comes to digital. I’m intentionally curious and rather relentless in my quest for this emotional connection to music. Some call it passion.
Not all will share this passion. For them all of this switch and cable talk is nonsense and a chasing after the wind. This is understandable.
With my network switch, I can easily hear the difference between two high quality PSU’s. So it’s not just the switch itself that changes the sound, but also the power supply powering the switch.
I concur with your assessment and importance of using a high quality power supply with Ethernet switch. Would you please share which network switch you’re using and any other filters in your setup?
Agreed, high quality DC cables are equally important in grand scheme of things. I am quite pleased with my JCAT LPS and DC cables powering my Telegartner M12 Ethernet switch.
I'm curious if those with good experiences with switches are using LPS on router? I don't want to speak for Rich, but we've been discussing networks on another forum, both Rich and rep. from IFI Audio state LPS on router competes favorably with audiophile switches at English Electric price level.
And LPS and a wal wart (switching power supply) serve two difference purposes. You have no idea what you are talking about...There are times when a switching power supply is best because it's a faster power supply and the signal path benefits from it and and LPS would actually sound worse in this scenario. It's not about the the two competing, it's about what is appropriate for the job and given application.
I have never had a wal wart outperform a LPS in all my years in this hobby, If you have good for you but I know of no one in this hobby using wal warts either and that’s my experience I’m talking about unlike many when I post it’s based on first hand experience.
in your infinite wisdom share with me your first hand experience in this hobby with what equipment a wal wart performed better then a LPS
You really didn't understand a word I said. Reread it again, and again and again. Until it sinks in. This isn't a competition...I have LPS and I have switch mode PS, depends on what you are powering. Again, reading comprehension is very important.
Thanks for sharing. Looks like everyone involved with streaming trying to come up with their own version of ‘audiophile’ switches. Network Acoustics is also coming out with a Ethernet switch next month.
Looks like everyone involved with streaming trying to come up with their own version of ‘audiophile’ switches.
Is this akin to when cable manufacturers coined the phrase a "loom" of cables, with the idea that all cables in a system should be from the same manufacturer?
I recently tried a black QSA fuse (£40) in the mains plug which feeds the LPS to my Bonn 8 Silent Angel router. I really was not expecting anything, having previously added a black fuse to the LPS which feeds my Roon server and heard no difference. The results with this black fuse in the bonn 8 power supply path are startling.
i would just clarify that i have 2 QSA yellow fuses and an orange synergistic in my other power cables so the big jump in SQ may be down to the fact it removed the last :) weak link in the system.
I would encourage anyone with an "audiophile router" and linear power supply to try the QSA black fuse in the mains plug. Really i would encourage you to put black fuses in every power plug but starting with the router is likely to give you a significant uptick.
As you know better is subjective and any given component must gel (synergy) with rest of your system for one to say, I prefer the brand X better than brand Y. I found a component last year that not only simplified my digital streaming but also transcended my existing digital front end (EMM Labs DA2 / Aurender N20). I suggest you to look into Merging Technologies +player. It’s a DAC/Roon player/Preamp, all in one box. No external component needed to run a Roon core. All you need is one high quality LAN cable, which you already own.
BTW, I am quite intrigued by your Manger S1 speakers, what made you decide to go with powered speakers over passive ones in Manger speaker line up?
@gloryOk, don't like a very nicely reviewed Antipodes, so maybe you need to move into Wadax and Taiko Extreme territory. Otherwise issue is your dac, or something in rest of system.
“BTW, I am quite intrigued by your Manger S1 speakers, what made you decide to go with powered speakers over passive ones in Manger speaker line up? “
I feel powered speakers are the future. Stereophile rated A+ for the powered and B for the passive 🙊🙈🙉. I run Teo cables which I think are the best cables on the planet but their SC’s are very high $$$ so XLR is my go to wire.
I love the K50 but is there a must cheaper way with all these switches going on in this thread?
Thanks for the info. I was looking forward to the review of SW-8 but after learning about reviewer pedestrian streaming setup, I honestly don’t care what he says. No wonder he’s sour on cloud based streaming in his main rig…LOL!
On another note, Melco has up their game on S10 Ethernet switch by introducing their own external power supply. https://melco-audio.com/s10/
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
