Why, if the digital signal is not being degraded and is therefore reaching its destination intact (which is all that matters), do I need a ’special’ switch
I believe the word "degraded" is being used in different senses by different people in this discussion. I have not used that word at all in my posts because it can be ambiguous and misleading in the context of digital signal transmission.
In a properly functioning Ethernet link all of the data (the 1s and 0s) will be received accurately. Yet at the same time various characteristics of the digital waveform will vary to some extent, depending on whether a switch is immediately upstream of the receiving component, and on the particular switch if one is present. I mentioned some of those characteristics in my first post in this thread, on 10-29-2019, and Atdavid elaborated further on my comments and added to them. Those characteristics may affect D/A conversion circuitry and/or analog circuitry in the component receiving that waveform that is downstream of the Ethernet interface in the component receiving that waveform.
I can only suggest that you take the time to re-read all of my posts in this thread and the posts by Atdavid. After doing so, if what we have said still isn’t clear I don’t know how to say it any more clearly.
Also, regarding...
Why, ... do I need a ’special’ switch?
Please note that I haven’t said that you or anyone else necessarily needs a "special switch." In fact my initial post in this thread referred to another thread in which two members reported significant sonic benefits to have resulted from insertion of a switch costing less than $20 into the signal path, in their very high quality systems. My point has simply been that sonic differences that have been reported by long-time highly respected members to have resulted from insertion of a switch or between different switches are technically plausible and explainable, in my opinion as an experienced designer of high speed analog, digital, and D/A converter circuits (not for audio).
Ok , lets forget, for the moment, analog v digital,cables, harmonics, power supplies etc etc Every single manufacturer and supplier of these special ‘audiophile’
switches and every single ‘reviewer’ claims that these switches
will "improve" the digital audio being passed through them.
Every single one
This is why I asked
my original question, because I could not see how a switch working at level 2 or 3 can affect the encoded audio (or video, they also claim !) in level 7.
Are you saying that
they can or they can’t. It can NOT be both, and bear in mind that you keep repeating that the digital signal is not degraded by a switch
All I want is a ‘yes, they
can’ or a ‘no, they can’t’ please. No
dissertations on analog theory please
This is why I asked my original question, because I could not see how a switch working at level 2 or 3 can affect the encoded audio (or video, they also claim !) in level 7.
Are you saying that they can or they can’t. It can NOT be both, and bear in mind that you keep repeating that the digital signal is not degraded by a switch
As I just said in my previous post I have never used the word "degraded" in this thread, except to say that I have not used it and that its use can be misleading.
And for the umpteenth time the encoded audio is not affected in the sense of being received inaccurately. The subsequent D/A conversion circuitry and/or analog circuitry is what may be affected by differences in the characteristics of the Ethernet signal.
Every single manufacturer and supplier of these special ‘audiophile’ switches and every single ‘reviewer’ claims that these switches will "improve" the digital audio being passed through them.
In my previous post I suggested that you re-read my (and Atdavid’s) posts in this thread, beginning with the first of my posts dated 10-29-2019. In the very first paragraph of that post I said as follows:
As someone having extensive experience in digital (and analog) design, although not for audio, it is very conceivable to me that a network switch can make a difference sonically. Not because it affects the accuracy with which 1s and 0s are received; not because it affects the timing with which those bits are received; ***and probably not because of most of the reasons that are likely to be offered in the marketing literature of makers of audiophile-oriented switches.*** [Emphasis added].
how a switch working at level 2 or 3 can affect the encoded audio
Just because the sound is better after inserting a new switch does not mean the switch affected the encoded audio. Couldn't improvements be due solely to a reduction of RF/EM noise in the chain?
and ' for the umpteenth time' almarg Can a digital switch, as the manufacturers and 'reviewers' say it can, improve audio and video streams passing through it. ? If you don't know just say so
Just because the sound is better after inserting a new switch does not
mean the switch affected the encoded audio. Couldn't improvements be
due solely to a reduction of RF/EM noise in the chain?
So you are saying 'yes, a switch can improve the audio and video being passed through it? or no it can't. It really can not be both Still a simple question. Again, if you don't know. just say so
and ’ for the umpteenth time’....why don’t you pick up a switch and try it on your system? My gosh, even if we say adding a switch made an audible difference, does that guarantees you will hear the same improvements @grannyring and others have heard in their system.
Why this is so difficult for you to understand everyone’s system and hearing capabilities are not the same. You may hear improvements or you may not. At least by trying you will put this to rest.
and ’ for the umpteenth time’ almarg Can a digital switch, as the manufacturers and ’reviewers’ say it can, improve audio and video streams passing through it. ? If you don’t know just say so
It depends on what is meant by "improve."
It will not improve (or change) the data that is being conveyed. It may affect the manner and the degree to which the characteristics of the signal affect downstream circuitry. And consequently it may improve the overall performance of the system and the sonics heard by the listener.
If that distinction is too complex for some to understand I don't know what else to say.
@jason - very cute, answering my question with a question. Since you choose not to answer my question I will answer for you. Of course a switch that doesn't introduce RF/EM noise to a line can sound better than one that does. You know this as well as I do. Every component in your chain that runs on electricity has the potential to add noise - it doesn't matter if the gear is transmitting analog or digital signals.
Do you deny this? And please, don't respond with another question. A yes or no is requested.
Despite my attempts to educate people that if RF/EM noise introduction at the switch will really affect the audio signal, then after passing through hundreds or even thousands of interim switches and routers how do we even have a recognizable audio signal.
Another forgotten fact is that the switch does not communicate directly with the DAC, it communicates directly to the network card in the DAC and it's buffers, where the signal is extracted from the ethernet packet and stored until the DAC requests it. These network cards are manufactured by a handful of chip companies and I guarantee that NONE of them are giving any attention to audio. There is so much misinformation being thrown about here that it is disheartening that it's even being given serious consideration.
The only thing you are illustrating is your own lack of knowledge. I have developed quite a few products with Ethernet interfaces. Never once have I used a "network card". There are approximately 40-50 companies that make ICs with Ethernet interfaces. Easily that many that makes RJ45 jacks, ethernet transformers, etc., likely many that you have never hard of.
Your post illustrates a gross ignorance w.r.t. circuit design, whether digital or analog. That makes it pretty easy to pretty much ignore your posts as they are written from a position of ignorance, not education nor experience.
The rest of your post(s), just repeatedly illustrate you understand very little about what is being posted in this thread.
jnorris200576 posts11-04-2019 11:26am it communicates directly to the network card in the DAC and it’s buffers, where the signal is extracted from the ethernet packet and stored until the DAC requests it. These network cards are manufactured by a handful of chip companies and I guarantee that NONE of them are giving any attention to audio.
WOW!!! I finally got through reading all of the posts on the thread. I was avoiding tax filing work I need to tend to today. For once, I think I can honestly say I'd rather be doing my taxes. 😊
Despite my attempts to educate people that if RF/EM noise introduction at the switch will really affect the audio signal,
I don't for a second think that RF/EM affects the audio signal! In fact I went to great lengths to say I don't believe it does at all. What I'm saying is that the electrical powered gear - routers, amps, switches, etc can all introduce RF/EM noise into your chain whether it's riding the physical line (not the 1's and 0's) or just being in close proximity to other equipment. Just admit it, power supplies etc associated with switches and routers can introduce RF/EM noise to your set up.
This is so very frustrating. I came on hear to ask a simple question about
a digital switch and all I get is people trying to show off their
extensive but completely irrelevant knowledge of old technology
hurling abuse at me to cover their total inability to answer a simple
question
I have moved on from
analog. All of my source is digital. None of the stuff that several
on here are trying to impress me with from their presumably vast
experience in analog can change the stream of ones and zeros into a
different stream of ones and zeros. No crackles, rumbles, glitches,
interference from non-magic cables and power supplies. Nothing,
zilch.
I am sorry if the
digital revolution has made a lot of your knowledge totally redundant
but that is progress.
Can you really not
see how laughable it is to think that a power cord in a switch can
affect a digital file or stream?
Put on your
Bluetooth earphones and walk away from the source. Sound degradation?
No. It will eventually cut out. It is there or not there. Loosen
your HDMI cable on your TV. Video degradation? No. It cuts out. It
is there or not there. Copy a few thousand photographs across the
network. Blurry? No. They are digital. Welcome to the digital
world. Call a friend in China on your cellphone. crackles and pops
and white noise ? No. Clear speech. It is digital. Stream a music
file through your network to a DAC. Degradation? No. Improvement? No.
It is DIGITAL get it?
I really do thank
you all for your input and in the unlikely event of me reverting to
analog I will certainly ask your advice but on my question regarding
a digital switch I will wait for replies from those more experienced
in digital.
(actually I have my
replies from my A/V consultant and my friend with the video
production and distribution company. They live and breath digital
audio/video so I will take their advice. So no switch for me. They
are very clear on the subject and you really, really would not like
their replies)
Please no more
replies regarding analog problems (although I am ready for more of
'you don't understand' and the 'Your post illustrates a gross
ignorance' and 'I have years of experience in yarda yarda' )
Once again, hurling
abuse at those who question your perceptions will not make them
reality…ooooh but here it comes again!
Jason, the members that responded to you were in fact providing useful and helpful information. You can choose not to accept that information, which is totally cool...your call...but it isn’t cool to say they are not being helpful.
At this point I’m not sure if I should interpret your posts as those of someone with an agenda or worse???
Feel free to post the feedback and responses you have received from your consultant and friend. Perhaps their perspective and take on these matters will be educational and helpful to others.
It will also be helpful to know which DAC you are using and your system chain.
@almarg and @atdavid Thank you for your detailed EE based and focused posts and measured responses. They are not only helpful but also supportive of the spirit of the forum. Your efforts and time are appreciated.
@jason_k2017 Jason, in the spirit of transparency and sharing, I'm of the belief that if I ask someone for their system information I should be ready to share mine. Here it is:
I couldn't agree more. Why won't you answer the question about routers and switches possibly introducing EM/RF noise OUTSIDE of the signal path just like any other piece of electrical powered gear??? The quality of the signal is not the end-all in audio. I'm still patiently waiting.
One of the hardest electrical engineering positions to recruit for is analog design, because unfortunately too many new engineering graduates are totally caught up in a perfect digital world and have no idea how the real world operates. They throw micro-controllers and processors down on a schematic and PCB, or heaven-forbid, a DC-DC with a multi-tap transformer, heck they probably followed the application note faithfully, but then are flummoxed when their creation does not work the way they expect it to. Being a good analog engineer is harder and less forgiving than digital
I am going to guess you are on the "young" side. By your post, you would think you invented digital. Sorry to tell you, but while it is "new" to you and seemingly perfect, real engineers have been working with "digital" for decades and know there is a big difference between transmitting bits, and recreating a high resolution analog signal.
See here is the thing, when my battery is starting to run down in my BT headset, I know .... the sound starts to change. The bits are the same, but the sound coming out, you know that antiquated analog stuff .... ya, that starts to fall apart. I guess I should assume it was one of those "digital" experts that designed the analog section.
jason_k201713 posts11-04-2019 1:43pmThis is so very frustrating. I came on hear to ask a simple question about a digital switch and all I get is people trying to show off their extensive but completely irrelevant knowledge of old technology hurling abuse at me to cover their total inability to answer a simple question
I have moved on from analog. All of my source is digital. None of the stuff that several on here are trying to impress me with from their presumably vast experience in analog can change the stream of ones and zeros into a different stream of ones and zeros. No crackles, rumbles, glitches, interference from non-magic cables and power supplies. Nothing, zilch.
I am sorry if the digital revolution has made a lot of your knowledge totally redundant but that is progress.
See here is the thing, when my battery is starting to run down in my
BT headset, I know .... the sound starts to change. The bits are the
same, but the sound coming out, you know that antiquated analog stuff
.... ya, that starts to fall apart. I guess I should assume it was one
of those "digital" experts that designed the analog section.
Exactly !!!!!!! it is the analog audio that is breaking up. NOT THE DIGITAL stream
On every set of BT headphones or earphones that I own, when the battery gets low, I get a warning while it is still performing perfectly, then another while still performing perfectly and then it shuts down. At no stage does the digital input get interfered with or the audio 'degrade' . You need to modernize your equipment.
I am going to guess you are on the "young" side
Actually no. I was lecturing on modulation techniques in digital communications in the '70s. I was part of the test group for Quadrature Amplitude Modulation utilizing Trellis Encoding in the early '80s And my IQ of 164 got me into the higest levels of military technology development
Oh but I forgot........... I am ignorant
@three_easy_payments
I couldn't agree more. Why won't you answer the question about routers
and switches possibly introducing EM/RF noise OUTSIDE of the signal path
just like any other piece of electrical powered gear??? The quality of
the signal is not the end-all in audio. I'm still patiently waiting.
You must try to understand that almost everything can introduce EM/RF noise. Every single device from the audio server, through every device my audio passes through on the internet and then my exchange to my router to my DAC can. Dozens and possibly hundreds of devices. But none of those sites think it
necessary
to use a magic cable or a magic switch. You really, really ought to attend a course on digital audio, or research it yourself
-------
As nobody in here will giive a yes/no answer regarding my original question I will just go with the experts' advice And why does this forum allow so many of you trolls? You are just preventing me from finding a sensible answer
You must try to understand that almost everything can introduce EM/RF noise. Every single device from the audio server, through every device my audio passes through on the internet and then my exchange to my router to my DAC can. Dozens and possibly hundreds of devices. But none of those sites think it necessary to use a magic cable or a magic switch. You really, really ought to attend a course on digital audio, or research it yourself
You must be kidding me, right??? No one believes it’s necessary to use cables or other devices to negate the negative effects of EM/RF noise that you finally concede can contribute to an audio chain via every source with an electricity source?? Seriously? Nordost, AQ, Isotek, PS Audio, Furman, Synergistic etc all have entire product lines to deal with EXACTLY this issue. No one calls it "magic" like you do - it’s all just reasonable isolation, shielding, grounding, and energy dissipation techniques that measurably work.
Why should I take a course on digital? This noise has NOTHING to do with the digital signal. Go do your own research.
I would respond, but unfortunately I have bullshit all over my shoes.
You know what people don't claim a 164 IQ in an internet discussion? ... people who actually have a 164 IQ. They don't need to because it is evident in their communication.
I would save your lies for people who won't call you out on it. If you had an IQ of 164, that would place you approximately 1 / 100,000. Your reading comprehension issues are clear indicators that that is not the case.
p.s. that would be:
70s , not '70s
highest level, not higest
Oh, but I forgot
So let me get this right. You have an IQ of 164, but you were part of the test group?
It is interesting that you were "part of the test group in the early 80s. So exactly which group was this?
jason_k201714 posts11-04-2019 4:25pmActually
no. I was lecturing on modulation techniques in digital communications
in the '70s. I was part of the test group for Quadrature Amplitude
Modulation utilizing Trellis Encoding in the early '80s And my IQ of 164
got me into the higest levels of military technology development
Can you tell me how many of those devices reconstruct a 100+ db dynamic range analog baseband signal?
jason_k201714 posts11-04-2019 4:25pmYou must try to understand that almost everything can
introduce EM/RF noise. Every single device from the audio server,
through every device my audio passes through on the internet and then my
exchange to my router to my DAC can. Dozens and possibly hundreds of
devices. But none of those sites think it
necessary
to use a magic cable or a magic switch. You really, really ought to
attend a course on digital audio, or research it yourself.
I am truly sorry to all those in here who were trying to give me a sensible answer. All I wanted was a straight knowledgeable answer
But I really can not put up any longer with this ignorant, jealous moron atdavid
To be honest when my experts replied to me regarding these nonsense products they did also warn me that I would find idiots like him on any ‘audiophile’ forum.
Ok atdavid, I give in. You are the big man, you are always right, everybody else has to listen to you and your ears are so much better than mine, and your equipment is the finest in the world and you know ten times more than me about digital communications and...and...and
You have achieved your objective of wearing me down with your insults and general assholishness (did I spell that correctly?
and yes it was measured 164 (around 130 more than you, it would seem)
As I have my experts’ replies I no longer need to listen to his drivel
Jason_k2017 11-4-2019 You must try to understand that almost everything can introduce EM/RF noise. Every single device from the audio server, through every device my audio passes through on the internet and then my exchange to my router to my DAC can. Dozens and possibly hundreds of devices. But none of those sites think it necessary to use a magic cable or a magic switch.
I had said as follows in one of my posts dated 10-29-2019:
... the risetimes, falltimes, noise characteristics, and distortion characteristics of the signal received by the audio component from the network switch or router that is immediately upstream of that component are almost exclusively a function of the network switch or router that is immediately upstream of that component.
You got the answer you asked, repeatedly, from many sources. What you did not get is the answer you wanted, and the one that agreed with what you had already decided before you asked.
For all your claims of intelligence, as opposed to calling others morons, you illustrated not one iota of knowledge about the topic of the discussion. You kept repeating "digital is digital" which no one in this thread was disagreeing with. Why did you keep asking it?
What is really strange, now, is that you said **YOU** were the expert, 164 IQ and all. And yet, you said something like this twice, "To be honest when my EXPERTS replied to me regarding these nonsense products they did also warn me that I would find idiots like him on any ‘audiophile’ forum."
If you have "EXPERTS", then why are you here, on a consumer audiophile forum, looking for answers and calling other people idiots? I don’t come on here looking for experts in digital communications and analog reconstruction in potentially noisy digital systems. That is what engineering forums are for. This obviously is not one.
I have no illusions I am always right and if I did, my wife would be sure to remind me that i am not. However, I will go out on a limb with a hypothesis that you did come here expecting to tell everyone they are wrong, but you ran into people who know enough and are confident enough in the topic (at a technical level) not be bullied on it.
The floor is always open if you would like to share with us your deep knowledge of analog electronics and noise control in mixed analog / digital systems as this topic has almost nothing to do with digital communications no matter how often you tried to bring the topic back to it. If you read this thread there are many hints on aspects of the topic that could be discussed, even some hints on how the packaging of digital data can have an impact on analog noise.
jason_k201715 posts11-04-2019 5:44pmI am truly sorry to all those in here who were trying to give me a sensible answer. All I wanted was a straight knowledgeable answer
But I really can not put up any longer with this ignorant, jealous moron atdavid
To be honest when my experts replied to me regarding these nonsense products they did also warn me that I would find idiots like him on any ‘audiophile’ forum.
Ok atdavid, I give in. You are the big man, you are always right, everybody else has to listen to you and your ears are so much better than mine, and your equipment is the finest in the world and you know ten times more than me about digital communications and...and...and
You have achieved your objective of wearing me down with your insults and general assholishness (did I spell that correctly?
and yes it was measured 164 (around 130 more than you, it would seem)
As I have my experts’ replies I no longer need to listen to his drivel
24 frame per second motion picture film when projected in a theater, as film, is flashed 3 times for each frame, by the projector. Each image is "flashed" 3 times during projection. Then move to the next image, flash it 3 times ...
atdavid103 posts You know that "film" was flashed 3 times per second, which again was not ideal but an acceptable compromise.
Huh?
@24fps, film would have 24 exposures per second. If you’re referring to
pre-flashing or post-flashing the negative, those are totally different
processes that are executed in the lab, not in the camera. Flashing is
intended to fog the film and reduce the gamma. The Director of
Photography, Vilmos Zsigmond, employed flashing on the movie, "McCabe
and Mrs. Miller".
The elephant in this room seems to be a simple question: If we are focusing on Internet sourced streaming fidelity, how do these “audiophile switches” compare to directly connecting to your modem and unplugging/disabling all other devices on your network?
No, not new at all. 3 blade or 3x speed shutters were used with 16fps film early 20’s (or earlier). When the switch was made to 24fps, they dropped to 2 blades or 2x shutters, which was late 1920s.
I can’t remember when 3x shutters with 24fps became common, I want to say late 70’s, early 80’s, but even today, you would find 2x shutter regularly if the theater has not gone digital.
I will state up
front that although I do realise the function and capabilities of
each network element, I am no expert so I am neither agreeing nor
disagreeing with any previous post.
I am in the UK and I
listen to the excellent BBC Radio 3 (mostly classical music) on their
'Sounds' application or one of my DAB receivers (that is Digital
Audio Broadcasting for our friend in America who do not have it !)
192 kbps on DAB and terrestrial with 320 kbps HLS AAC online
I have been lucky
enough to be shown round a digital television and radio transmission
station. You have never seen such a jumbled mass of cables. Power,
Ethernet, the odd USB etc. with feeds from around 200 stations.
Around twelve
million people depend on it to provide them with perfectly reproduced
music and television. As most using this forum are undoubtedly aware,
with DAB radio and digital TV it is either exact, garbage or
non-existent, picture and sound quality degradation not being
possible.
I have an open mind
on the subject, but I am wondering why commercial and professional
applications such as television and radio networks don’t need the
same level of equipment as is being promoted for home cinema/music
room applications.
All I know is that I
enjoy the consistent high quality of digital and do not miss the hit
and miss (and s*it and hiss!) of analogue.
I have an open mind on the subject, but I am wondering why commercial and professional applications such as television and radio networks don’t need the same level of equipment as is being promoted for home cinema/music room applications.
That's like asking why drive a Ferrari when a Kia serves the same basic purpose of delivering you from point A to point B. It's about eeking out extra performance...and not just making a successful transmission of data. I feel that any piece of gear powered by electricity, including digital gear, can benefit from reducing the effects of RF/EM noise.
Can a digital switch, as the manufacturers and 'reviewers' say it can, improve audio and video streams passing through it. ?
Yes it can. Don't know about video, but audio, yes. The rationale is simple:
It is all about some form of noise (usually either voltage noise or phase noise) hitching a ride along with the digital data (the bits) and getting into the DAC. This causes distortions in the analog signal which somehow affects the human perceptual system. THAT is what an "audiophile switch" attempting to accomplish: getting rid of those noise components before they reach your DAC.
So no switch for me
That was obvious with your first post. So really, not sure why you were posting here. It's not like someone could change your mind and convince you to buy a switch, is it? Besides, why don't you try a switch for yourself? Is it so hard to do?
I am pretty sure you are one of those people from audio "science" forums claiming that all DACs sound the same, and a $50 DAC from China would provide the same SQ as any SOTA DAC. Heck... someone told me there that a DAC is not even part of the audio signal / chain !!
But I don't think that your Ferrari/Kia comparison works.
If the sole purpose is to get from a to b and the Kia will do that, then the Ferrari is not needed
Of course the Kia/Ferrari analogy works. If you care about audio you don’t just want to hear music come out (i.e. getting you from point A to B), whether it’s from phono or 192 stream, you want it to present with the least amount of noise layered on top of it. My point is that regardless if whether the digital signal is perfect, it is susceptible to RF/EM noise riding along or being created by power supplies and any gear (including switches) that pass electric current. If another switch can keep this noise out then you can potentially recognize better sound. This isnt about 1s and 0s getting through or not.
Is not the sole purpose of the equipment in question, in both the professional and amateur setups, to get the radio/TV show from a to b ?
What @david 22 in UK?? Are you asking whether the sole purpose of an audio system is get sound coming out of it? An Alexa speaker does that job very well.... so...
This is the level of blatant ignorance and misinformation that I have come to expect from some of the people on this thread...
"It is all about some form of noise (usually either voltage noise or phase noise) hitching a ride along with the digital data (the bits) and getting into the DAC. This causes distortions in the analog signal which somehow affects the human perceptual system. THAT is what an "audiophile switch" attempting to accomplish: getting rid of those noise components before they reach your DAC."
...and this is the level of arrogance that is driving me away...
"I am pretty sure you are one of those people from audio "science" forums claiming that all DACs sound the same, and a $50 DAC from China would provide the same SQ as any SOTA DAC. Heck... someone told me there that a DAC is not even part of the audio signal / chain !!"
My point is that regardless if whether the digital signal is perfect, it
is susceptible to RF/EM noise riding along or being created by power
supplies and any gear (including switches) that pass electric current.
Sorry but I still don't follow how the digital signal can be susceptible to your
"RF/EM noise"
, and were it to be possible why is that not considered to be a problem by the professionals. You do realise that in the UK we have DAB radio ?. It is digital all the way from the microphone to the receiver.
What @david 22 in
UK?? Are you asking whether the sole purpose of an audio system is
get sound coming out of it? An Alexa speaker does that job very
well.... so...
No, I am saying that in this case the sole purpose is to
safely deliver the audio data. The only difference between an Alexa speaker and the most expensive hi-fi system is the quality of the DAC, the amplifier and the speaker(s). The data it receives is identical. You are thinking of analogue audio.
Back to my original question.
Is there anybody who can explain why the professionals need only normal cables and switches?.
What are they doing differently and why can't I do that on my system?
Sorry but I still don't follow how the digital signal can be susceptible to your
"RF/EM noise"
Ok David you have to stop this. Again I am NOT saying that the digital signal is susceptible to noise. I have gone to great lengths to say quite the contrary. This is NOT about the signal so please stop. What I am saying is that noise can get introduced to your system equipment (not the friggin signal!) via electrical gear including routers and switches etc just like power supplies in any other piece of gear can create RF/EM noise that get transmitted through the air or hitches along the foil/shielding on an ethernet cable (or any other cable) causing an affect on other equipment - and consequently sound quality. Please, this must make some sense to you.
Again I am NOT saying that the digital signal is susceptible to noise. I
have gone to great lengths to say quite the contrary. This is NOT
about the signal so please stop. What I am saying is that noise can get
introduced to your system equipment (not the friggin signal!)
OK three_easy_payments now you have to stop this
You said in your previous stab at an answer;
and I quote
My point is that regardless if whether the digital signal is perfect, it
is susceptible to RF/EM noise riding along or being created by power
supplies and any gear
(including switches) that pass electric current
Oh dear, you seem very confused on the subject. And once more, please, please read my posts more carefully.I did not question the correctness of what you said. I am simply
asking why this is not deemed to be a problem by professionals.
Please,
this must make some sense to you. So I will try again.
Is there anybody who can explain why the professionals need only normal cables and switches?. What are they doing differently and why can't I do that on my system?
And I would appreciate replies from people who are not confused and who do not keep contradicting themselves. Hey, you know what? I am going to telephone the BBC's technical support department for a definitive answer. It is what I should have done in the first place, I will let you know their answer
"It" meaning all of your audio gear, and NOT the digital signal! All of your gear is susceptible to to the RF/EM noise created by digital equipment and their power supplies, etc. Sorry for the ambiguous "it". Is this more clear now?
OK accepted But It doesn't have to be clear because you are still not addressing my original question
So If all of my
gear is susceptible to RF/EM noise then why is, and this is my only and original question
, the gear in a professional network not susceptible to the same type of noise? You have only given me your theory on what happens on a home network.
I ahould be getting my call back from the BBC within a couple of hours so I guess I will know by then
So If all of my gear is susceptible to RF/EM noise then why is, and this is my only and original question , the gear in a professional network not susceptible to the same type of noise?
Because the BBC or any other professional network is only concerned with broadcasting an accurate digital signal. They could care less what the effects of RF/EM noise are having in their own studio - which would be the only positive result that using quieter electrical gear would have at their point of broadcast. Anything they do to minimize this type of noise in their own space would have ZERO impact to end user. It's up to the end user to decide whether he/she wants to reduce the negative affects of ALL potential sources of electrical-based noise, including routers, switches, transformers, and power supplies. Again, I agree that their digital signal that arrives in your home is perfect - yet your overall listening experience could be improved with quieter gear - none of which alters that perfect digital signal. Make sense now?
Geez.... some toxic comments here from "everything-sounds-the-same" crowd. Relax, it's just a hobby. Nobody is pointing a gun in your head forcing to buy a switch. Don't buy it. Why do you even read this thread?
They could care less what the effects of RF/EM noise are having in their own studio
(and I assume you meant couldn’t) I am not talking about noise picked up in the studio. That is pre digitizing which clearly would contribute to the quality audio. I have no disagreement there
I am talking post digitizing and "
the negative affects of ALL potential sources of electrical-based noise,
including routers, switches, transformers, and power supplies
" before it gets to my house.
How can that leave, as you say a 'perfect signa'l'
derived from the final noisy audio circuit to my router but then a switch can introduce problems in the very short run to my DAC? Perhaps anybody experiencing poor sound really ought to be questioning the ability of their DAC to reproduce the audio properly and to isolate the audio output from any 'noise' on the inputs? In any event, I just read an ad for one of the 'audio' switches and it claims to improve, not clean, any audio or video passing through it HUH?
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